If no nerfs for Fians or Khan's Guard then..

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JunKeteer said:
Small party combat isn't an issue - it's when you get to the 1kv1k which is all what it boils down to in the end; since AI camp their towns recruiting until they are 'army joinable' then make an army and repeat the grind.
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The lategame is about sieges. Sieges are about numbers. I dont run around with 1k and there are no fair and balanced fights in the lategame. In the midgame you do have to balance partyspeed and strength and this is where troop quality really shines.
JunKeteer said:
We already play a significant role, whether that's killing 30 units myself or sitting in the back and playing 'tactics'.
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Yes, we do. Adding more risk would, for most people, limit how much we can personally contribute. So, if it is truely challenge you crave that would be a really good first stop and it would be simple to implement; there is already a slider to begin with.

There just isnt a whole lot of point in talking about challenge as long as we are able to pick up the slack ourselves. Challenge in this franchise is mostly just another word for soloing.
 
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Got this mod from thr workshop that let's all melee weapons to cleave trough. Think this kinda fixed lot of the issues with certain types of units being top dogs. Now with this mod mele cavalry are really deadly, with couch Lance you are like a rohirim pulverizing orc at Gondor.
 
xdj1nn said:
are you sure we're playing the same game? Or are you that addicted to spamming a single unit at all times?
By late game I'm not even bothering with units, I just pick t6s and keep pulling them from the prisoner wagon, I don't even look at them - the only non-t6 I pull are vlandia xbow, vlandia pikes, sturgian ax (to mix with legionaries) and menavlions. - If feeling creative I pull some line breakers and wildlings for the throwing oomph...
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I too pick up all troops I come across, and what I have said repeatedly in these discussions is that other T6 troops do die, Khan's Guard and Fians don't. So due to survivor bias you will end up with a disproportionate number of them as a matter of course, even if you're not trying to use the best troops available for a given situation. Unless you force yourself not to use them.
xdj1nn said:
Literally anything works, "oh but OP this and that" just level all of them - and make the damn t6 stronger all across the table - do you know result of that? We won't be as effective against AI and they'll start presenting danger - by nerfing KG you're simply making Khuzait more boring to fight against.
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xdj1nn said:
As is they at least present a real threat when fielding big armies (because AI under armies always have ludicrous amounts of t6 on the field) - most fun battles I had were indeed against Khuz where I had to actually use my brain to not get wiped or to not have companions dying during said battles (dying not wounded)
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If literally the only serious threat to the player when they stack T6 is the Khuzaits then there is a problem with the game.

The thing is that you don't really have to use your brain against KGs more, just have more cannon fodder to throw at them. There is no weakness you can intelligently exploit to take them out quicker. You can't outshoot them with other ranged infantry (a real life strategy) since archer targeting HAs sucks, you can't get them with pikewalls since they can literally beat pikewalls in melee, you can't outlast their arrow supply with shield walls because they're just as effective in melee as at range.

The way the game should be built is that most parties can present some kind of threat to the player which you need to use Good Tactics(TM) and fighting yourself in order to deal with. Instead of just sitting archers on a hill/rotating HAs to win.

Nerfing KGs and buffing armour, spears, and pikes will accomplish this.
xdj1nn said:
The best answers to your question, though, were already given by others - "You waste a little more time one way or another and that's challenging gameplay to you?" - that's the fact that pulls from the gameplay (makes it annoying)
than we have the lack of challenge from AI itself...
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The challenge should be that if you want to minimise casualties fighting against similar size parties, you have to take terrain, positioning, soft counters, tier, banners, morale, etc into account as well as fighting yourself personally.
xdj1nn said:
so if they buff all t6 units instead of nerfing, everyone will become dangerous.
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But the AI doesn't use full T6 parties most.of the time so the result will just be the player becoming unbeatable when they have a T6 party, rather than making the AI more of a threat.
xdj1nn said:
If nerfing KG you're extending grind and basically keeping the exact same gameplay as before - which's unchallenging/not risky.
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My post said that I would also be buffing other troop types.
xdj1nn said:
Topping it off, there's another layer that gets improved towards gameplay which are RPing army compositions - if they buff everything we can actually field purist armies from a single culture and still be able to face all other factions without having to resort to meta or exploits. KGs biggest offense on that regard's that no other unit (aside from fians) can actually win, we are often needing to resort towards cheap exploits like using map limits corners.
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See above
 
LyonExodus said:
The Ai in Bannerlord cheats very little. i don't know where you got the idea that they massively cheat when in the last two years the AI has basically no advantages over the player. I think you are just making the assumption that they do without realizing that they kinda don't.
Money wise search kingdom bank on the forums filter and you can see how the clans manage money, that's not really cheating since they do not generate money, they just share it.
You can bankrupt a kingdom by having an hefty mercenary contract and every lord will go around with 40 troops, unable to make armies because all their cash is going in your pockets.

Poor clans are financially kept afloat by Rich ones (like in real life among countries, or even governments with certain industries)
The AI used to have a lot of cheats, cheats that have been progressively taken away more and more as the game progressed in development.

Regardless, the changes i am suggesting are not "impossible" since the only thing i did to create a similar gameplay to what i am describing was to just give the lords more skills and adjust their perks. It's quite literally in the game already. And listen here: Doesn't require any extra code lines. isn't that interesting.

i think you just have no idea about what we are discussing and how game designing works in general.
But i assume increasing the skill and using in game perks that already exist is cheating in your book. If so, please lend me the title of it, so i will never read it.
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How is using the in game systems that are in place a 'cheat'? That is not what the issue is, that isn't 'AI cheating'. I'm talking about just arbitrarily grossing their income or giving them extra health/damage (outside of skills/equipment) or having them spawn even quicker or replenish recruits out of nowhere quicker or anything else outside the 'world map' system they have in place which the player also participates in. Buffing certain perks/skills doesn't fall into 'AI cheats' as we also use perks/skills to our advantage - we can't teleport to a town after getting defeated and come out with a party of 30 units.
 
The AI already has certain cheats such as spawning with 20 or so troops after they're defeated, not needing horses to upgrade their units and getting extra daily passive exp (idk how much though). I also saw someone mention that they have a small daily chance of getting a 200k denars from thin air (this cheat is just a cheap bandaid imo).

I honestly wouldn't mind if people wanted the devs to for example increase the daily passive exp cheat and making the lords buy more horses to make their troops more threatening and their parties faster, the issue with the game isn't the difficulty for me, it's the relentless grind (I suggested some solutions for the grind above and in other threads). There are also non-cheating solutions you suggested like giving the AI commanders better perks (also making them be able to hire wanderers as captains and surgeons/scouts, etc.) which I also agree with.
 
Totalgarbage said:
I honestly wouldn't mind if people wanted the devs to for example increase the daily passive exp cheat and making the lords buy more horses to make their troops more threatening and their parties faster, the issue with the game isn't the difficulty for me, it's the relentless grind (I suggested some solutions for the grind above and in other threads). There are also non-cheating solutions you suggested like giving the AI commanders better perks (also making them be able to hire wanderers as captains and surgeons/scouts, etc.) which I also agree with.
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Hmm, the problem with things like this (horses, companions) is that it puts the AI in direct competition with the player over resources that are limited. It could end up being a real pain.
 
Sweynforkbeard said:
Hmm, the problem with things like this (horses, companions) is that it puts the AI in direct competition with the player over resources that are limited. It could end up being a real pain.
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True, this would decrease the available horse supply in towns and make I think makes horses more common as loot, so it would make the game even more combat focused (but would also likely buff trading). They could also give higher map speed bonus to the AI, but this would also likely be unbalanced in another way.
 
Sturgian Heavy spearmen are usually enough to fight off khans, but then again I've never been in a situation where roughly equal amounts of both faced each other. I bet it's 1 and half heavy spear for each khan with the terrain advantage
 
Totalgarbage said:
They could also give higher map speed bonus to the AI, but this would also likely be unbalanced in another way.
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It will 100% be unbalanced. One of the main reasons as to why the Khuzait kept snowballing for ages was their cultural speed buff.
Once they removed it all of a sudden the Khuzait were kinda normal.
Making the AI lords faster is something that we know doesn't work for a fact
.
Altough i guess if you make everyone faster it's like you changed nothing.

I'd love TW to give us sliders but i am afraid they have already said they don't like the idea. No idea why
 
five bucks said:
The challenge is supposed to come from using good tactics to minimise your casualties
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I do this anyway though. Also it's only a certain amount of field power that can be KG or Fian or anything in particular, IF YOU ARE PLAYING WELL and taking the map: you will have all types of troops constantly and trying to go get a particular troop would be wasting both campaign time and become too expensive eventually. The fact that you could defeat an army by just using your KG doesn't mean the other troops aren't there and don't need to be managed. And you must micro KG against any non-fodder enemy or you will piddle them away to dum AI deaths.

And believe me, their are times I really want to just let them fight, but it will and does result in too many unit losses or even defeat, so I must micro manage them the whole way to not waste too much material or the battle against extra large forces who have actually built up a bit.
five bucks said:
As well as participating in the battle yourself
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Yes this is important even if you didn't have to, you should still try to get FP for more skills. Of course doing this well will make the peanut gallery cry and whine that you're exploiting the poor poor AI that's' too dum to fight back.
five bucks said:
With Khan's Guards who are basically player characters available in groups of 100, you never really need to do any of these tactical decisions, nor engage in the battle yourself.
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YMMV but I engage and use tactics constantly and feel both are required. Have you completed a campaign using only KG and letting them f6 (or whatever)? Have you completed a campaign using Sturgian infantry in formations (as in video you showed) and do you assert that doing so made the game more enjoyable? I don't see how putting some troops types in placement and formation to have an advantage is "challenging and fun" and doing the same with other troops isn't. You did the same thing either way, so is it fun/challenging that few more die, or fun/c that you move slower on the map, or fun/c because it takes longer to move them on the battle map?
 
LDominating said:
If you won't nerf the Khans or the Fians that's fine but atleast buff the other troops to make them usefull and not be replaced by doomstacks of Fians or Khans.

I think @LyonExodus gave a good detailed video about why the game's poorly designed around manual battles,both in terms of stats and equipment,especially equipment
If an equipment slot is not mentioned/skipped it's not removed,it's kept as it is,I'll add just the changes,skipping the already existing stuff.
Do keep in mind if there's more than 1 template,the troop can choose the weapon from 1st template and armour from 2nd,the templates aren't set in stone and only expands the pool of items a troop has.
I'm sorry if I made a mistake along the way.

I'd suggest right now for noble troops these changes:
Sturgia,Druzhinik and their line:

T2 replaces with the Nasalhelm over Leather (23) in addition to getting Galloglaich Axe as an option
Here's the templates with stats

T3 replaces with Nasal Helmet with Mail (39),Mail Shoulder Guards(11),which I think should be reverted to their original 18 Body Armour,Mail Mittens (20) and Simple Leather Boots (6) aswell as getting a Pointy Warsword option
Here's the templates

T4 gets the Mail Shoulder Guards (11 body armour) and get the Veteran Warrior's Axe in addition to their normal Long Warsword and we replace their Mail Shirt with Decorated Huberk(32 15 15) aswell with Bronze Bracers (22)
Here's the 2 templates

T5 replaces with the Fullered Long Warsword & Rectangular Bitted Axe in addition to a Plated Warlord Helmet (53)
Here's the 2 templates

T6 gets the same weapons with a new upgrade to the spear,having the Heavy Druzhinik Lance,the Bronze Bracers (22) for hand slot and Strapped Mail Chauses(23) for legs.
Here's the 2 templates

Empire,Cataphract line:

T2 replaces with the Legionary Helmet (36),Auxiliary Armour with Straps (18 8 4) & Auxiliary Armour (17 8 4),Legionary Padded Straps (9 4) and Simple Commoner Spear.
Here's the templates 2

T3 only gets the Template 3 removed,always having the shoulders.

T4 gets a new shoulder Decorated Leather Harness over Mail (16 10),replaces with Fine Steel Paramerion and Courser Lance,in addition to a new helmet Iron Nasalhelm over Leather(43) and replaces with Splint Boots (22)
Here's the 4 templates

T5 replaces with the Themaskene Steel Spathion & Cataphract Mace and the Knight's Kite Shield with the Cataphract Lance aswell as 3 new shoulders Neckguard with Bronze Plate Pauldrons (14 7) Decorated Leather Harness over Mail (16 10) & Legionary Cape (16 4) aswell as hand armour Decorated Imperial Gauntlets (20).
Here's the 3 templates:

T6 replaces with the Themaskene Steel Sphathion & Cataphracts Mace,replaces with Lamellar Plate Boots (19) and Lamellar Plate Gauntlets (23)
Here's the 2 templates:

Aserai,Faris Line:

T2 replaces with 3 new shields Desert Round Shield,Curved Round Shield & Reinforced Desert Round Shield,they get 3 new saddles Beduin Common Saddle (12),Rugged Beduin Saddle (12)& Beduin Cloth Saddle (9),they replace with the Long Thamaskene Tipped Spear and get a set of Horseman Javelins
Here's the 3 templates

T3 replaces with the Helmet with Open Turban (26) Heavy Ring Mail (20 10 :cool: Studded Leather Vambraces (11),they get an additional shield,Large Adarga plus the other 4 shields,they replace with the Fine Steel Leaf Spear and Slighty Ridged Flyssa & Heavy Horseman's Mace.
Here's the 4 templates

T4 replaces with Bamboo Axe & Fine Steel Long Kaskara,Mamluke Lance and Jereed,they replace with the Luxury Scale Armour (47 23 14),Splint Vambraces (20),Splint Boots (22), Rough Cavalry Saddle,Desert Oval Shield & Wooden Oval Shield
Here's the 2 templates

T5 replaces with Lordly Seel Cap (46) & Sultan's Crowned Lord Helmet(45),Scale Shoulder Guards(14 7),Luxury Scale Armour (47 23 14),Splint Vambraces (20),Splint Boots (22),Reinforced Half Plate Barding,Decorated Oval Shield,Jereed,Noble Cavalry Lance and Engraved Angular Kaskara.
Here's the 2 templates

T6 replaces with Sultan's Steel Cap (46),Mastercrafted Southern Scale over Chain Hauberk (51 25 16) & Mastercrafted Southern Scale over Chain Mail (51 16 16),Long Sleeved Bronze Scale Shoulder Guards (16 :cool: & Bronze Scale Shoulder Guard (14 4),Plated Striped Gauntlets(22),Splint Boots (22),Reinforced Half Plate Barding,Decorated Oval Shield,Jereed,Noble Cavalry Lance and Engraved Angular Kaskara.
Here's the 2 templates

Vlandia,Knight Line:
T2 gets Laced Coif (14) & Open Padded coif (14),Hood (3),replaces with Heavy Heavy Aketon (18 9 9) and Light Lance.
Here's the 3 templates

T3 gets Ornate Pauldrons (8 :cool: & Pauldrons with Cape (8 :cool:,a new weapon Spiked Battle Axe,Mail Cavalier Boots (12),Half Mail Barding (55).
Here's the 2 templates

T4 gets Heavy Mail Hauberk,Oranate Pauldrons with Cape (15 12) & Reinforced Mail Shoulders (15 4),replaces with Knight Helmet with Bronze Faceguard (44) & Closed Knight Helmet (45),with Reinforced Mail Mittens (23),Mail Chauses (22),Fortified Kite Shield,Chain Mail Horse Armour (55).
Here's the 3 templates

T5 replaces with Full Helm over Padded Cloth (4:cool: & Full Helm over Padded Cloth (4:cool: --- yes there are 2 of the same name with 0.6 weight difference ---,White Tabard over Mail Hauberk (34 12 12) & Red Tabard over Mail Hauberk (34 12 12),replaces only Spiked Battle Axe with Wide Fullered Broad Arming Sword & with Heavy Knight Lance,Reinforced Mail Mittens (23),Heavy Heater Shieldand and gets the Reinforced Ornate Pauldrons (20 12) & Reinforced Ornate Pauldrons over Scale (22 12).
Here's the 3 templates

T6 has the same weapons as T5,except no more Knightly Arming Sword,replaces with Bringandine Over Mail(50 16 14,Heavy Mail Mittens (24) and gets Reinforced Ornate Pauldrons (20 12).
Here's the 2 templates

It took me a while to make this thread and I hope these would be changes would satisfy the community wants.
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>Lyonexodus
"lets mash a 500 block purely of one unit into 500 of another unit and then present it as representative of a combined arms game"
>Good

That testing style works for archer dps, but that's about it. Other than that its just spectacle and trivia.
I'm all for equipment changes but I think at this stage it will be making adjustments that aren't actually going to address much. Biggest things affecting the game right now are AI problems, especially with weapon length. Veteran Falxman suddenly being far less effective, generally unable to kill things as well as their tier 4 predecessors despite having better stats generally shows that there's a lot going on that isnt optimized, and once it is they'd just have to rebalance the units yet again.
They should just scale the units tier to armor tier- T4 units use T4 gear, etc. and call it a day for now. Why some units wear terrible gear randomly I have no idea, but I also doubt its one of the lowest things on the list of what's holding them back. After all, sharpening the sword of a second grader isnt going to make them any more threatening statistically. .
 
Ba18070 said:
>Lyonexodus
"lets mash a 500 block purely of one unit into 500 of another unit and then present it as representative of a combined arms game"
>Good

That testing style works for archer dps, but that's about it. Other than that its just spectacle and trivia.
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i am afraid you have no idea how i test units. and how i get the data i get.
Ba18070 said:
I'm all for equipment changes but I think at this stage it will be making adjustments that aren't actually going to address much. Biggest things affecting the game right now are AI problems, especially with weapon length. Veteran Falxman suddenly being far less effective, generally unable to kill things as well as their tier 4 predecessors despite having better stats generally shows that there's a lot going on that isnt optimized, and once it is they'd just have to rebalance the units yet again.
They should just scale the units tier to armor tier- T4 units use T4 gear, etc. and call it a day for now. Why some units wear terrible gear randomly I have no idea, but I also doubt its one of the lowest things on the list of what's holding them back. After all, sharpening the sword of a second grader isnt going to make them any more threatening statistically. .
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This is all good. problem is that you forgot that 1.8.1. happened and adressed the Falxman, Voulgiers and all shock troops in general.
Good thing my testing is just trivia and spectacle and doesn't, in any way, show the difference in performance from one patch to the next. And doesn't go the extra mile to explain mechanics and bring to light some issues or improvements that go unnoticed by most.

I don't get how you can watch any of my videos and just think they are for spectacle over prioritizing sharing information.
There are some channels out there that run "tests" for spectacle, and unfortunately those videos perform way better than mine as well.
Hours of tests, thousands of hours of players experience, days of recording and editing, preferring informing the viewers over making more mainstream content that will generate more revenue just to be called a Showman.

A true man that recognizes effort and quality. I am glad we have people like you in this community
 
@LyonExodus it's because in the flow of an actual campaign, the differences between similar troops becomes irrelevant because the game is not exact enough for them to be an advantage in material. Timing and placement makes much larger impacts on losses then a little more armor/skill/weapons length.
If X unit is available en route to my target, X unit is more useful then Y unit that's across the map. So, making videos of this information, which is trivial, comes across as you just making this to have something to put on youtube (which is fine...) then to be anything helpful or informative. I mean, you can do as you wish, but to expect people to kiss your butt or put more weight on your opinions because you videoed yourself in custom battle over and over and added red arrows to thumbnails..... not gonna happen.
 
five bucks said:
But the AI doesn't use full T6 parties most.of the time so the result will just be the player becoming unbeatable when they have a T6 party, rather than making the AI more of a threat.
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BECOMING? BE-CO-MING? we already are unbeatable except for the crappy early game.
the correct answer is: buffs + improvements to AI economy and recruiting capabilities. Nerf = derp
 
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
Also it's only a certain amount of field power that can be KG or Fian or anything in particular, IF YOU ARE PLAYING WELL and taking the map: you will have all types of troops constantly and trying to go get a particular troop would be wasting both campaign time and become too expensive eventually.
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As you said though, you don't need the other troops to do anything. You just need the KGs to solo the army.
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
The fact that you could defeat an army by just using your KG doesn't mean the other troops aren't there and don't need to be managed. And you must micro KG against any non-fodder enemy or you will piddle them away to dum AI deaths.
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The only management you need to do of your other troops is sitting them at the back, and the KGs only need to be told to follow with F2.
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
Yes this is important even if you didn't have to, you should still try to get FP for more skills. Of course doing this well will make the peanut gallery cry and whine that you're exploiting the poor poor AI that's' too dum to fight back.
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You can get totally risk free kills when the enemy starts routing.
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
YMMV but I engage and use tactics constantly and feel both are required. Have you completed a campaign using only KG and letting them f6 (or whatever)?
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I have done campaigns with a party largely consisting of KG, but not one of literally only KG. But it's a moot point because I usually tell everything but HA to wait, ride ahead of my main force with just my KGs and shoot the enemy till they're dead. So the other troops may as well have not been there at all, the most they contribute is some stray arrows if archers.
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
Have you completed a campaign using Sturgian infantry in formations (as in video you showed) and do you assert that doing so made the game more enjoyable?
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I have used infantry in formations and found the game more enjoyable for doing so. However I do not actually need to do this and therefore the game is not challenging enough.

I haven't done a Sturgia-focused playthrough yet, but I have done Battania, Khuzait, Aserai, Vlandia and Empire. I think the talk about how **** Sturgia is has warned me off them.
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
I don't see how putting some troops types in placement and formation to have an advantage is "challenging and fun" and doing the same with other troops isn't. You did the same thing either way, so is it fun/challenging that few more die, or fun/c that you move slower on the map, or fun/c because it takes longer to move them on the battle map?
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As said above, you don't need to do anything with KGs other than tell them to follow then widely circle the enemy.

Literally no matter what enemy you're facing.

There's no neuron activation involved there.

But there is thinking involved in that Strat video I posted where he dropped his casualties significantly with intelligent usage of formations, counters, etc.

With a couple more changes to the game it could be even more deep and fun.
 
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
If X unit is available en route to my target, X unit is more useful then Y unit that's across the map. So, making videos of this information, which is trivial, comes across as you just making this to have something to put on youtube (which is fine...) then to be anything helpful or informative
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i guess you have no idea bout this field called "Research" that in no way impacts investors decisions in spending money or not.
Does that mean that all "reasearch" is practical?
No
Does that mean that most research is unusable and doesn't help practical engineering in any way?
Also no.

Your argument wants to hint at any kind of research as just useless because not practical. This is why people like you are not in any Research Lab, you can't even comprehend the value of what research does overall.

Anyway, i am not even going to adress the other statement as that is simple close mindedness and has nothing to do with the comment i was replaying to.
I invite people to have a different opinion than mine, that's generally how intelligent people function, but they also have to prove their points to be factual, or else is hot air.
I was mad at the guy because he basically called me a Showman rather than someone who puts effort and time and wants to inform a larger part of the community while providing data to back the claims he makes.
He can dislike my style, personality or videos as much as he likes, but please go touch some grass sometimes as a Showman wouldn't make a video that took him a week to assemble from scratch just to make 5K views. Basically 10€
A showman would load up Custom Battles, start rumbling into a mic and have troops fighting while he tries to be funny.
Ananda_The_Destroyer said:
added red arrows to thumbnails
Click to expand...
Tell me you never watched my videos without telling me you never watched my videos.

@Ananda_The_Destroyer you are a sad person
 
LyonExodus said:
i guess you have no idea bout this field called "Research" that in no way impacts investors decisions in spending money or not.
Does that mean that all "reasearch" is practical?
No
Does that mean that most research is unusable and doesn't help practical engineering in any way?
Also no.

Your argument wants to hint at any kind of research as just useless because not practical. This is why people like you are not in any Research Lab, you can't even comprehend the value of what research does overall.
Click to expand...
Though, it is not really how most research is actually done nor how you would structure relevant studies in the, somewhat unlikely event, that unit performance in Bannerlord became a field of research.

In some cases, or for some, an inaccurate study is better than no study at all. But, on the other hand, it is not really unreasonable to dismiss the value of these test either.
 
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