I want to be a woman.

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Mayhaps now this topic can finally be allowed to Rest in Peace.

And the earth in which it lies be buried beneath a ton of salt, so that never again shall it rise.  :evil:
 
Pharaoh Llandy 说:
Mayhaps now this topic can finally be allowed to Rest in Peace.

And the earth in which it lies be buried beneath a ton of salt, so that never again shall it rise.  :evil:

You forgot the stakes. And the cut head put at the feet. Face down. :wink:
 
I suspect that after the apolcalypse, when Armageddon is upon us, and the Earth is devastated by nuclear winter, the only things left alive will be cockroaches and this thread.
 
nox 说:
Pharaoh Llandy 说:
Anyway, digressing. I think people just need to take a step back and realise that TW, or anybody else involved in the game, is not trying to disrespect female gamers by missing out a female protagonist option. I don't know why they did it, and I'm not trying to make excuses for it. It's just the way it was done. They may change it in the future, but arguing isn't going to convince them, nor is threatening not to buy the game because it doesn't have a gender option. A good game is good because of its storyline, its graphics, and its gameplay, and if a tiny little thing like gender is all that it takes to make a good game bad (or vice versa) for you, then you really need to spend that $15 on getting some better life-priorities.

Edit: Typos

Just to bring this forward - be aware that Taleworlds didn't exclude the female protagonist.  The game was developed by a third party and everyone does things differently. 

Clearly, not everyone agrees with or understands our style of allowing the player to play however they wish, and third party development demonstrates this.

It's reasonable to expect that now that the in house team is taking a closer look at the code, and with the volume of helpful feedback that has come from this forum and others - that some things you expect to see in the game will be included with patches to come.

That being said, I make no specific promises with regards to time or content =)

Thank you for posting this follow. I was just ready to say in 85 pages not 1 Devloper had come in to comment but you have done so and thank you once again.

I think some and hopefully many of us knew it was not Taleworlds intintions that females be left out and that this aspect of the game was not directly from Taleworlds but a 3rd party vendor that made the choice to leave out female characters.

I and I know many others await the day that this is possibly implemented back into the game. in te mean time I will play Warband and continue playing Total War
 
Boudica 说:
I think some and hopefully many of us knew it was not Taleworlds intintions that females be left out...

You... aren't left out. You... can still play the game. This game... like many other games... some of which are FANTASTIC... has only a male protagonist. That doesn't mean that you can't play it.

**** this, I give up.

[me=Pharaoh Llandy]goes back to OT, where, somehow, everything makes more sense.[/me]
 
I think you largely missed the point, Llandy. 

It's not that you can't play... it's that, in a game where the protagonist is poorly-defined, you're forced to play a guy.  It's the sheer arbitrariness that has caused an 85-page thread, frankly; if the protagonist was like the hero of Assassin's Creed, and the marketing for the game dealt with it appropriately, nobody would have minded so much. 

Then again, those of us who value the open-ended feel of the first two games, like myself, would not have bought it.  I don't want to play some amazingly-detailed simulation of the 17th century.  I want to play an open-ended sandbox RPG, where I can be a special hero.  I really think that tying the game so strongly to History was a mistake; it gave the people who get all snippy about what's "realistic" a soapbox and undercut the support from players like myself, who couldn't give a hoot about whether it's "historical" but care very deeply about the gameplay underneath the surface.  Not understanding what the audience really wants may be a big part of the issue here; SiCH may have done fine in a region where WFaS's story is considered a national treasure, but out in international waters, other things matter a lot more.
 
xenoargh 说:
I think you largely missed the point, Llandy. 

It's not that you can't play... it's that, in a game where the protagonist is poorly-defined, you're forced to play a guy.  It's the sheer arbitrariness that has caused an 85-page thread, frankly; if the protagonist was like the hero of Assassin's Creed, and the marketing for the game dealt with it appropriately, nobody would have minded so much. 

Then again, those of us who value the open-ended feel of the first two games, like myself, would not have bought it.  I don't want to play some amazingly-detailed simulation of the 17th century.  I want to play an open-ended sandbox RPG, where I can be a special hero.  I really think that tying the game so strongly to History was a mistake; it gave the people who get all snippy about what's "realistic" a soapbox and undercut the support from players like myself, who couldn't give a hoot about whether it's "historical" but care very deeply about the gameplay underneath the surface.  Not understanding what the audience really wants may be a big part of the issue here; SiCH may have done fine in a region where WFaS's story is considered a national treasure, but out in international waters, other things matter a lot more.

I think you're onto the real measure of it.  What sich did, was probably fine and appropriate for the audience it was intended, but brought here and compared with some of the amazing work done by fan mods and the high expectations from the refinements of Warband, it's judged accordingly.

I think we are probably cut from the same cloth on our gameplay goals, xeno - I am the sort who will often not even follow the story line in RPGs if that is an option.  Back in the day when I played daggerfall, I think I did the first quest and then I set out into the world and just played for the heck of it.  Playing the role I set for myself.

That is in a nutshell precisely what my work has ever been intended to do, and also what I intend to do for WFaS in the future. 

I want to give the player choices - even if those choices are bad or wrong, and let them deal with the consequences.  Permitting the player to let his troops loose in a village to rape and pillage - which marks him as a criminal, but devastates the village, raises morale and brings in more loot and raises the possibility of rounding up men for conscription.   

I want to pose the question to the player of what are they willing to do for power, and let them decide on a moral course.  It's not moral if they have no opportunity to act with malice or cruelty.  It's only moral if they have the option and decline.

Too many designers I think fall down the hole of trying to narrow the experience to control the player's exposure to content.  That is a very consumerist model, which I suppose works for people who want that.  Playing games which purport to be RPGs but really play like watching an animated semi-interactive media.  The story is already written, you just have to manage to not die while it finishes.

 
I agree with all of that; it's why I took Blood and Steel in such a completely free-roaming direction, even to the extent of making it game about conquering Calradia, which probably wasn't ever really intended in Warband, and quickly quit worrying about History; if people want History, they can play Brytanwalda or the other specialized products made for them.  On that note, if Taleworlds wants to sell History, it'd probably serve them best to do it as side-projects (which is pretty much what I think WFaS was regarded as, up until a late date), because I honestly think that's the smaller portion of their potential audience.

More on point, most of the women in the thread have expressed that if they'd been able to play a female, but it cost them, like it did in Warband (if you've never done it, try that once, it's like half the game is missing, in terms of major features that either aren't there or are arbitrarily harder) they'd have been fine with it.  It was the total removal that caused all the stink. 

I could see a lot of cool things being done that could make playing a female in this time and place very interesting; for example, being forced to use your wits during key dialogs, having to put more points into CHR than male characters to get good responses to some events (or, even better, playing a high-CHR woman suddenly opens new opportunities; never underestimate the power of Beauty). 

Heck, in a world populated by the Three Musketeers, men could fight duels over your honor, or you could get enemy Lords to fight each other for your favors, which would be in perfect keeping with the setting and provide women with a great experience.  I know all of that takes it into "too much work" territory, but meh, that's what mods could be about.



Lastly, in terms of hard choices and morality, I'm with you, although I've steered a fairly conservative line; while you're allowed to kill everybody in a village in Blood and Steel (more hardcore and vile than the somewhat-nebulous handling in Warband), I decided to avoid rapine entirely, simply because it's not something I want on my conscience, should some player show up and talk about how awesome it is to rape everybody (you know it'll happen) and wasn't quite sure how I'd punish people enough to make it not worth doing, ala the way choosing to be really, really Evil in Fallout tended to ruin the ending you got.  Part of that is simply that I've never quite gotten around to writing a decent ending sequence for Blood and Steel, so it's still the default Warband one, which is lame- that is one area where WFaS is a considerable improvement, imo.

That, and with a mod, you never know if you're putting it in front of kids.  Even Fallout didn't let you do that particular crime- you could slay the children and convert them into bloody gibbets, but Black Isle drew a line :wink:  But I agree that choosing to do good or bad is something that should be in a great game; that's largely what gives a game like this its greatness in the first place, frankly; being able to make constructive choices and moral decisions, and then having to live with them.

Aaaaanyhow... yeah.  I think the problem is just that it's missing, like a missing arm; it didn't have to be fancy, or the preferred track of power-gamers, to have avoided lots of screaming.  It could have been even more cruddy than in Warband before there would have been a lot of complaints. 

However, what if it had been more interesting and potentially richer?  Imagine, if you will, what would have happened if women gamers were showering the game with compliments, not rocks!  Amongst other things, I predict that reviewers would have been kinder; note the attention that adding the marriage feature garnered Warband; the fact that WFaS added some very constructive things to the series, like coherent endings and stronger storylines, but still got very mixed reviews thus far says both a lot about the state at release, in terms of polish, but also about how it was missing things to give reviewers something really new to talk about.  Dueling over women would have done it, imo, and if you could instigate a duel as a woman, that would have made a lot of reviewers perk up. 

Ah well.  What's done is done.
 
Color me a skeptic, but the overwhelming majority of gamers are male though that does vary by game.  That said, the vast majority of gamers who want to play females are also ... male.  =)

Not that this devalues their choice - just saying.  I don't believe that adding female characters will necessarily bring in the female gamer.  Lacking it however, can certainly discourage it.


 
It worked for Blood and Steel.  I've even gotten PMs from female players who didn't want to say anything on the Forums about it, even comments on the download area of the Repository, which I found very interesting.  And what's really interesting, at least to me, is that it happened more-or-less by accident; at first, I just wanted sexy femmes fatale in my mod, just for fun (and to make sure that history grognards, at least the ones too dumb to separate the graphics from the game design, weren't going to stick around).

I think there are more females playing than people tend to think; those trends have changed a lot, and the data says that the percentage of female gamers in the areas studied is now around 40%, according to multiple sources.  Granted, a lot of girls are gravitating towards games that are geared to appeal to them, but one of the reasons that Plants vs. Zombies did so well was that it appealed to all sexes, and it's almost certainly made more money than Warband did, in developer profits if perhaps not gross sales. 

I think that discounting the numbers of female players, or their desire to play video games where being a girl is special, is a problem within the gaming industry generally; a lot of guys think we're still in the 1990s, where girls were still being encouraged to think of gaming as "nerdy" and "boy stuff".  So they think of their audience as being largely guys who want to kill stuff. 

Don't get me wrong; I made a mod specifically appealing to that kind of behavior, but I also ended up throwing a bone, however unintentionally (at first) to girls as well. 

When I discovered that it was attractive to women that they were being included with more than token choices, I became more deliberate about catering to them, and added equipment that was designed to appeal to them as a group, such as helmets that wouldn't hide their hair, that sort of stuff.  It sounds corny, but it worked pretty well for me, except for having to deal with the same trollish behavior we've seen in the thread. 

A lot of men are just plain threatened by the idea of girl warriors; I think that it's because IRL, women are starting to out-pace men in a lot occupations (even in gaming; the number of women at companies like EA is rising rapidly).  Gaming is one of the few areas where men are catered to very specifically, and I think there's a lot of resentment brewing about it. 

It's hard to explain the kind of behavior we've seen here otherwise; having female players wouldn't have hurt these people a bit, it caused no giant whining and outcry in Warband, and despite Archonsod's statements that some PC Carebear types whined about women being included in the original Mount and Blade, I sincerely doubt it caused an 85-page thread.  I really think that some men think their manhood is lessened by having to deal with females getting to enjoy their masculine power trips.  As a dude, and particularly as a dude who made what is probably the most spectacularly-violent mod in Warband, I find it pretty laughable; I was a huge fan of Kill Bill, and I love women who are fit and can kick ass :wink:
 
I was a bit bummed to see I couldn't play as a woman. Though to be honest it didn't make much difference to me. I have played games with male protagonists with no problem.

I suppose what I am saying is, yes it sucks I can't play as a woman but that is no reason not to buy the game.

Though I still wish I didn't buy the game because it is ****
 
Well, I'm sure that the game's other issues will get sorted.  That's pretty much why nox is here, dealing with grouchy people :lol:
 
Grouchy, indeed.

if people want History, they can play Brytanwalda or the other specialized products made for them.  On that note, if Taleworlds wants to sell History, it'd probably serve them best to do it as side-projects (which is pretty much what I think WFaS was regarded as, up until a late date), because I honestly think that's the smaller portion of their potential audience.

If you put it that way... well, no, YOU go play something else that suits you better, instead. WFaS was intended as a game that is based on some part of European history, with most people who play it to side with a faction that is closest to them, in the means of nationality etc.
Sorry, mate, but you ain't some high horse sirrah that can tell people what to do in your own liking. How do you know what serves the developers better in a certain project they create, or if those people who approached WFaS, for it unique historical background (as opposed to the fantastic of Warband) are a minority?
If the female gender was to be added in WFaS, I would support it, but I really have a strong liking for its game due to it "History". I think that with some other poeple we made 10 pages of discussion just for the change of the name of a faction, a discussion that brought some progress (thanks to nox) and a discussion were people argued, yes, but not like this. That arguing was productive. Now, I wonder if you're just raising your ego, or if you really intend to be productive. Because you're a lot of words, mate, but you never say those words where they're useful. I'm not calling you insidious, but I think you get the picture. But you're an evasive chap, you know. Avoiding straightforward conversation when someone "dares" to answer you back with quite reasonable arguments. You decide if that's bad or not.
Apart from the trolls, or people that joined this discussion just for the lulz, people that supported the historical arguments weren't any kind of "grognardes". I can say, at least for myself, I supported those arguments not to keep the female gender away, but to show why might there be a reason for that feature to be removed. If you want to be an honest, reliable man, keep the "grognarde" for yourself. It fits you. And don't dress up yourself and everyone that shares your opinion in this wonderful "martyrdom" costume. No one's persecuting anyone, this is a forum thread, not a marathon of ideological ordeals.

That's all. I really hope this comes to fruition, because I will really enjoy to play an intricate campaign as a woman, because that would be it, if implemented right, concerning how the reality was at that time. That would be awesome.
Oh, some time ago, I posted a link to something very interesting in my opinion, yet it came under no comment, the agonical "anti-sexism" howling continued with such a lamenting tone. Anyway, I post it again.

32079_1.jpg


It was (is?) one of the three (pre-order) editions covers to be released in Poland for WFaS. One cover featured a Cossack, the second featured a Winged Hussar (O RLY) and this one... oh, look! It is a woman! A girl actually! (dressed in typical clothes worn by the Polish gentry, by the way) Is that a gun? Is she riding a horse? It that combat around her? Did it mean something? I don't know! So, yeah... what a cruel antagonist I am, to show such a thing here. I hope no one received severe injuries.

That's all from me, ladies and gents. I wish you prosperous winds in this matter, because for now, it's sailing in a gale. As for me, I sail towards other waters.

Ta-ta!




 
xenoargh 说:
I agree with all of that; it's why I took Blood and Steel in such a completely free-roaming direction, even to the extent of making it game about conquering Calradia, which probably wasn't ever really intended in Warband, and quickly quit worrying about History; if people want History, they can play Brytanwalda or the other specialized products made for them.  On that note, if Taleworlds wants to sell History, it'd probably serve them best to do it as side-projects (which is pretty much what I think WFaS was regarded as, up until a late date), because I honestly think that's the smaller portion of their potential audience.

More on point, most of the women in the thread have expressed that if they'd been able to play a female, but it cost them, like it did in Warband (if you've never done it, try that once, it's like half the game is missing, in terms of major features that either aren't there or are arbitrarily harder) they'd have been fine with it.  It was the total removal that caused all the stink. 

I could see a lot of cool things being done that could make playing a female in this time and place very interesting; for example, being forced to use your wits during key dialogs, having to put more points into CHR than male characters to get good responses to some events (or, even better, playing a high-CHR woman suddenly opens new opportunities; never underestimate the power of Beauty). 

Heck, in a world populated by the Three Musketeers, men could fight duels over your honor, or you could get enemy Lords to fight each other for your favors, which would be in perfect keeping with the setting and provide women with a great experience.  I know all of that takes it into "too much work" territory, but meh, that's what mods could be about.
Or playing a high-INT woman, never underestimate the power of vocabulary. :smile:  Why they do sound like interesting ideas xenoargh, especially using one's wits in dialogues, I find the idea of men fighting over my pc's honour or for her favours as rather awful.  My female pc's all tend to like fighting their own duels and rescuing poor males in distress. (At least in my imagination :smile: )

I'm still playing the original M&B and modules as it gives me the freedom to completely imagine the story for my female pc.  I'm currently enjoying a second playthrough with the Native Expansion module as it gives me all the perks of nation building and being Queen without the restrictions that is seems Warband has added in.  Has anyone done a module for Warband that makes the female playthrough more like the male playthrough?  I'd be interested in purchasing Warband if someone has done that.  Also I'd like to commend TaleWorlds on the cover art of Warband.  I almost impulse bought the game on the strength of that cover art.  (The one with the female warrior on a horse)

As for F&S, the inability to choose gender is a deal breaker for me.  I know it doesn't matter for some women whether they can choose the gender of the protagonist or not but for me it matters.  It assists my immersion into the game.  On the flipside, if the game had character customization but only allowed the female option I'd also have a problem with that as my husband plays the same games (I introduced him to M&B) and likes to play a male pc.  I got lucky and found a partner who shares my enthusiasm for video games. :smile:
 
I still do play games that have set male protagonists, most being some sort of FPS hybrid, or I wouldn't have very many games to play at all and I've been a passionate gamer since early arcade games and an addiction to Space Invaders on the Apple II.  Sadly, for me anyway, I thought that by 2011 I'd be spoiled for choice for games that had the option of a female protagonist.  Well I also thought that there would be flying cars and going by the male insecurity expressed in this thread I think the world's more ready for that than the gaming community is ready for equality.


@nox - There are a lot of female gamers out there, maybe not a lot registered at these forums but I bet there are a number of them playing TaleWorlds games.  Perhaps many of them are long time lurkers such as myself.  Revealing oneself as a female gamer in forums such as this can sometimes lead to a lot of backlash as this thread is a rather sad example of.
On another note I was also a fan of Daggerfall.  That is an expansive game and even with countless hours of exploration I don't think I saw every location.  Revisited it recently with the wonders of DosBox and had a lot of fun recreating my female high elf with a penchant for all things Daedric.


@Archonsod - The major publisher that was accused of deliberately altering the gender of the main protagonist was Activision.  Just in case you were wondering.  Here's a link to an article on the subject.

Edit  - Well I can't post a link yet but the article is at Gamasutra and is called "No female heroes at Activision".  Anyway that's me done for now before my patchy internet connection drops out again.
 
I'd like to add my own two-cents here, with a quote from Queen Elizebeth the first, one of my own nation's most beloved monarchs:

"I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and the stomach of a king and a king of England, and would think foul scorn upon any prince of Europe, who would invade the borders of our realm"

I'm a man as well and I was really disapointed not to have the option to play as a woman too, because it added so much more depth to my game. It was an added challenge to play and I loved getting to create a feisty heroine who took crap from nobody, who would gladly walk up and challenge a noble lord to a duel for thinking she was soft and who could out-man the men sometimes.

The fact that the game contains fighting female companions, makes the argument that "Its just the times" invalid and I do feel I have to agree with the notion that this was really just Taleworlds being lazy, something I really didn't ever think I'd find myself writing given the amazing job they have done in the past.

I love these games and I can only hope that Taleworlds takes this on board and releases a major update to the game to correct this or failign that, one of our many highly talented modders takes up the challenge, so that the legendary heroines of M&B and Warband can ride again.
 
Cameron Winter 说:
I'd like to add my own two-cents here, with a quote from Queen Elizebeth the first, one of my own nation's most beloved monarchs:

"I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and the stomach of a king and a king of England, and would think foul scorn upon any prince of Europe, who would invade the borders of our realm"

I'm a man as well and I was really disapointed not to have the option to play as a woman too, because it added so much more depth to my game. It was an added challenge to play and I loved getting to create a feisty heroine who took crap from nobody, who would gladly walk up and challenge a noble lord to a duel for thinking she was soft and who could out-man the men sometimes.

The fact that the game contains fighting female companions, makes the argument that "Its just the times" invalid and I do feel I have to agree with the notion that this was really just Taleworlds being lazy, something I really didn't ever think I'd find myself writing given the amazing job they have done in the past.

I love these games and I can only hope that Taleworlds takes this on board and releases a major update to the game to correct this or failign that, one of our many highly talented modders takes up the challenge, so that the legendary heroines of M&B and Warband can ride again.

Read a few posts back, the game was developed by a third party USING talesworld software, but talesworlds didnt make the desicion to cut females, the thrid party did
 
humesdog 说:
VampLena 说:
Ahem... Joan of Arc?

which is exactly like he said... burned at the stake as a witch!

my opinion... realistically probably a female character wouldn't fit but they worked it into warband... if it fit there it would work here... i liked the harder challenges and obstacles you had to overcome as a female character

Joan of Arc was also deemed a Schizophrenic .... she heard voices! I would most assurely be freaked out of my gord if the leader of the squad was literally "Hearing Voices"  Are you kidding me!!!    :mrgreen:
 
Peacefully? Lol, this thing is going out like the runescape mod thread. It's going down like a champ if you ask me.
 
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