I think the real problem with smithing is...

[kweassa]

I think the real problem with Smithing is along the same lines with Athletics ... it's just too darn good.

The perks in Athletics and Smithing, are so much essential in martial builds that I simply can't ever "not use" them. Even if I don't use smithing to actually earn money, still the free attribute points are way too useful for any build. Even with INT builds the free attribute points from smithing and athletics make things so much easier.

It just has too many advantages imo.

• Efficient investment: Athletics and Smithing is in the same END group, so the attribute points I invest into END gives out a payback of not just associated skills, but even more attribute points to spend. Not only can you just invest only 6 attribute points to END, and then unlock the 275 skill threshold through the extra END point in Smithing, you can also minimize the investment into VIG and offset it through Athletics and Smithing. It even gives out some free focus points.
• Source of money: Even after 1.7.x, selling crafted items is still a "printing press" of money. One might as well call it "Minting" instead of Smithing. Even when not abusing it and making only certain number of items, you still can get tens of thousands of gold through orders.
• Way to increase Charm: Taking orders is a very efficient way of increasing Charm, by increasing relations with the person who made the order. So it gives you money, but also gives you relatiohship gain, and also increases your Charm easily.
• Best items in the game: You get to craft the best items in the game for your own use, specialize the weapon to your fitting, so you and your party members are all wielding objectively the best tier-6 weapons in the game. It even allows you customization options not readily provided through the normal market, and craft a really good, long cavalry lance that can be couched.
• Fast level up: The moment you save up enough money to buy as much hardwood and fine-steel-giving, cheap weapons for smelting, you can basically get to around 250 skill in a matter of a days, so long as your smithing stamina allows. This, in turn, gives you very fast character level up in the initial phases of the game. Fastest to skill up -> abnormally fast level up.

So in a sense, it's not just the Smithing, but rather the entire END category is just "essential" and IMO outperforms every other skill group by far.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

The perks in Athletics and Smithing, are so much essential in martial builds that I simply can't ever "not use" them. Even if I don't use smithing to actually earn money, still the free attribute points are way too useful for any build. Even with INT builds the free attribute points from smithing and athletics make things so much easier.

I think I would much rather just put my attributes where I want them and raise skills I want and use, then to raise useless skills to gain more attributes in places I don't want them where they can only raise skills I don't need at all. People say what you're saying all the time and it's just the most astounding misunderstanding of building a good character I can imagine.

The perks in Athletics and Smithing, are so much essential in martial builds

I don't bother with either and I destroy entire towns with just my character. What is it you can possibly think is essential?

You get to craft the best items in the game for your own use

Long glaive already exists so smithing for weapons is worthless. what am I gonna kill a guy in half a hit?

Way to increase Charm: Taking orders is a very efficient way of increasing Charm

Charm is so ****ing easy to raise though, like you can't even wipe your butt in this game without raising charm.

Source of money: Even after 1.7.x, selling crafted items is still a "printing press" of money.

You're wasting campaign time waiting though, you could print just as much money defeating lords and also print renown, influence and relations and actually good skills too by investing the time into competent warfare.

Smithing sucks, athletics is okay but not needed

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

I think the real problem with Smithing is along the same lines with Athletics ... it's just too darn good.

The perks in Athletics and Smithing, are so much essential in martial builds that I simply can't ever "not use" them. Even if I don't use smithing to actually earn money, still the free attribute points are way too useful for any build. Even with INT builds the free attribute points from smithing and athletics make things so much easier.

It just has too many advantages imo.

• Efficient investment: Athletics and Smithing is in the same END group, so the attribute points I invest into END gives out a payback of not just associated skills, but even more attribute points to spend. Not only can you just invest only 6 attribute points to END, and then unlock the 275 skill threshold through the extra END point in Smithing, you can also minimize the investment into VIG and offset it through Athletics and Smithing. It even gives out some free focus points.
• Source of money: Even after 1.7.x, selling crafted items is still a "printing press" of money. One might as well call it "Minting" instead of Smithing. Even when not abusing it and making only certain number of items, you still can get tens of thousands of gold through orders.
• Way to increase Charm: Taking orders is a very efficient way of increasing Charm, by increasing relations with the person who made the order. So it gives you money, but also gives you relatiohship gain, and also increases your Charm easily.
• Best items in the game: You get to craft the best items in the game for your own use, specialize the weapon to your fitting, so you and your party members are all wielding objectively the best tier-6 weapons in the game. It even allows you customization options not readily provided through the normal market, and craft a really good, long cavalry lance that can be couched.
• Fast level up: The moment you save up enough money to buy as much hardwood and fine-steel-giving, cheap weapons for smelting, you can basically get to around 250 skill in a matter of a days, so long as your smithing stamina allows. This, in turn, gives you very fast character level up in the initial phases of the game. Fastest to skill up -> abnormally fast level up.

So in a sense, it's not just the Smithing, but rather the entire END category is just "essential" and IMO outperforms every other skill group by far.

Some of this is true, but there is also something here that is off the mark.

No, its not a particularly good way to increase charm.

It does give you an opportunity to improve the relationship with some notables in your own towns without having to do too much questing, but handing in captured clanleaders to dungeons is magnitudes stronger. Or just catch and releash in general, you are doing it anyway.


Smithing is not a good way to level up.

Example, I am on day 92 and my brother is lvl 25. In order to reach lvl 26 he will need and additional 472.000 xp.

Suppose I used one pugio and melted it down I would be able to craft/melt one fine steel tier weapons and two steel tier weapons. For this I would need to craft three times, melt four times and refine 7 charchoal; so a total of 9,33 actions. On average each of these actions would yield 785 xp. Soo, in this case I would effectively need to take 600 smithing actions in order to level my brother a single level!

Needless to say, he did not become lvl 25 by way of smithing, he did so by shooting a bow from horseback.

 

[five bucks]

Athletics perks absolutely should be amazingly good, because it's such a massive time investment for the player to do everything on foot and it puts them at a pretty big disadvantage when they could just be an uncatchable horse archer. If anything, Athletics still needs to be better, it should give better speed compensation for armor, as a player in armor with very high Athletics cannot catch a fleeing looter.

 

[anoddhermit]

The most you need is 5 Endurance and 5 focus in Riding, or 6 and 4, if you go the route of keeping lords prisoner.

Otherwise, it's for people who want their character to be a combat character, which is never going to beat, say, having Immortal Charm and Everything Has a Price, and/or Price of Loyalty and Minister of Health. Those are absolutely top tier perks, the likes of which nothing in Endurance or the attributes it gives bonuses to will beat. And on top of that, high Steward gives you a much larger party to work with. And on top of that, even an Int/Soc build can one shot things with polearms or a noble bow or whatever, from horseback. It barely makes a difference to invest heavily in combat skills and endurance if you're a mounted combatant.

An Int+Soc build >>> everything else in terms of sheer effectiveness at painting the map overall. So I think Endurance, while strong and convenient, overall just makes up for the otherwise very high opportunity costs of taking Vigor and/or Control skills.

For that reason, I disagree with your assessment. I think the biggest issue is just the "this feels like cheating" aspect of smithing, which is the money part of it because it so dramatically outdoes other money making methods.

 

[Althix]

I think I would much rather just put my attributes where I want them and raise skills I want and use, then to raise useless skills to gain more attributes in places I don't want them where they can only raise skills I don't need at all.

i used to skip smithing back in the day and i was focusing on Engineering. But that was a bad idea because of how engineering works.
Yet, smithing or rather attribute points bonus is very important because i can't reach "Impale" otherwise. I wished it would not be the case, but in the current iteration of the game, it is what it is.

 

[xGreedo]

In my opinion a good fix for smithing would be: Smelting 1-3 tier weapons should have a chance of 50-70% of failing giving you no items (iron, etc) smelting tier 4 should have a chance of 25-40% of failing and tier 5-6+ should never fail.
The point of this is to make components like iron,silver etc a bit harder to find limiting how many weapons you can craft every time. (Just an idea)

The "wasting time waiting for the stamina to fill up" argument is so bad. You need to wait 1 day to fill up your stamina in order to craft at least 5 weapons costing 8-10k (im being quite moderate here you can easily create weapons and sell them for more) each. There is no better way to make money in the game.

 

[humility925]

The most you need is 5 Endurance and 5 focus in Riding, or 6 and 4, if you go the route of keeping lords prisoner.

Otherwise, it's for people who want their character to be a combat character, which is never going to beat, say, having Immortal Charm and Everything Has a Price, and/or Price of Loyalty and Minister of Health. Those are absolutely top tier perks, the likes of which nothing in Endurance or the attributes it gives bonuses to will beat. And on top of that, high Steward gives you a much larger party to work with. And on top of that, even an Int/Soc build can one shot things with polearms or a noble bow or whatever, from horseback. It barely makes a difference to invest heavily in combat skills and endurance if you're a mounted combatant.

An Int+Soc build >>> everything else in terms of sheer effectiveness at painting the map overall. So I think Endurance, while strong and convenient, overall just makes up for the otherwise very high opportunity costs of taking Vigor and/or Control skills.

For that reason, I disagree with your assessment. I think the biggest issue is just the "this feels like cheating" aspect of smithing, which is the money part of it because it so dramatically outdoes other money making methods.

you only need 3 endurance and 5 focus in riding and 3 cunning, and 5 force in scounting to get that both 225 unlock perks to get 100% keep Lords prisoner, but it's might take longer since it's low endurance and cunnning, but I try to min and max in most efficient, All stats is 3, enought to get first perk for all, then most importian is Soc/Int so put more than mere 3 stats. Why, Army is more powerful than solo, no matter how good you are solo, you may fall due lot of rain arrow on you, or many army worn you out, (I guess Solo is better in Warband than bannerlord, due way system of armor work, depend on who you fighting, and what level setting you set, normal to very good a.i combat, so go on)

I thinking long term game, end game, if you plan peaceful buy everything, then 8 Soc with 5 force trade, or more of warlord, then 7 or more on int to huge buff army with mix 7 soc and 7 int, all or most skill are 5 force in soc and int.

I felt smithing is not overpower, but got in way if you want to be lord or ruler in kingdom, and that smithing got in way, not because money, but too much time and waste forced, you can making money by war without smithing, you do not need smithing, it's just noob trap.

If you want to be lord or ruler, smithing is not way, and it's waste your time to max out smithing, and too much tense to do work to try use smithing to fund army, that don't work that well, when you are busying fighting vs other kingdom, might no issues when you are not part of kingdom in early of game, but it's waste level, time, maybe not money, but time and level, each time level, harder next, is why it's waste to put end and smithing forced, where that should go somewhere ect to buff army and yourself's war skill, not smithing skill.Unless you roleplaying smithing and plan not to do any kingdom, then yea, it's great, but not overpower, I think it's reason, but only thing isses is low value weapon isn't profit, while high value weapon like 2 hand sword is sell very high, but again, many armor and weapon cost lot to buy as well?

It's make no sense that they sell very high cost of armor and weapon while player sell weapon cheap and losing money and time as well as leveling system.

Smithing may be easier to get rich in early game if craft 2 hand weapon but not other, but late game, it's hard to keep up when war with kingdom, I rather to had that village/town/workshop/sping of gold from trade skill to cover wage of troop, and had no need waste time to do smithing in long term, too much tense and not worth of time. Rest in town, and do smithing, looking for wood, or resource to craft, where that time should full time on finding lord or hunt lord down, or try ally with other, so go on.

 

[anoddhermit]

you only need 3 endurance and 5 focus in riding and 3 cunning, and 5 force in scounting to get that both 225 unlock perks to get 100% keep Lords prisoner, but it's might take longer since it's low endurance and cunnning, but I try to min and max in most efficient, All stats is 3, enought to get first perk for all, then most importian is Soc/Int so put more than mere 3 stats. Why, Army is more powerful than solo, no matter how good you are solo, you may fall due lot of rain arrow on you, or many army worn you out, (I guess Solo is better in Warband than bannerlord, due way system of armor work, depend on who you fighting, and what level setting you set, normal to very good a.i combat, so go on)

I thinking long term game, end game, if you plan peaceful buy everything, then 8 Soc with 5 force trade, or more of warlord, then 7 or more on int to huge buff army.

I felt smithing is not overpower, but got in way if you want to be lord or ruler in kingdom, and that smithing got in way, not because money, but too much time and waste forced, you can making money by war without smithing, you do not need smithing, it's just noob trap.

If you want to be lord or ruler, smithing is not way, and it's waste your time to max out smithing, and too much tense to do work to try use smithing to fund army, that don't work that well, when you are busying fighting vs other kingdom, might no issues when you are not part of kingdom in early of game, but it's waste level, time, maybe not money, but time and level, each time level, harder next, is why it's waste to put end and smithing forced, where that should go somewhere ect to buff army and yourself's war skill, not smithing skill.Unless you roleplaying smithing and plan not to do any kingdom, then yea, it's great, but not overpower, I think it's reason, but only thing isses is low value weapon isn't profit, while high value weapon like 2 hand sword is sell very high, but again, many armor and weapon cost lot to buy as well?

It's make no sense that they sell very high cost of armor and weapon while player sell weapon cheap and losing money and time as well as leveling system.

Ah... right I was thinking they were at 250 rather than 225. I usually end up at 5 endurance regardless due to my starting build(getting 30 medicine on Battanian character to start is super convenient).

Right now I think the issue is using smithing SOLELY for money makes the early/mid game really easy economically, regardless of whether you invest in it. You can make high level weapons with low skill, and they still sell for thousands.

Investing heavily in smithing I agree with you, is unnecessary and not that good - on top of time consuming. But I can make as much money as I need currently, any time I want, by having companions/clan smith a few things which takes less than a day. So it kind of trivializes making money regardless of skill levels - even though leveling it really high isn't necessarily worth it for the other bonuses.

 

[Adryl]

I think the bigger problem is that smithing is boring and very clicky. Honestly it's an unnecessary part of the game imo. It doesn't add anything. The game's about the combat, it doesn't need a half-baked smithing system. It could be good if altered a lot - just don't think it's worth the dev time.

 

[anoddhermit]

I think the bigger problem is that smithing is boring and very clicky. Honestly it's an unnecessary part of the game imo. It doesn't add anything. The game's about the combat, it doesn't need a half-baked smithing system. It could be good if altered a lot - just don't think it's worth the dev time.

It adds customization which people tend to enjoy. Your weapon feels a bit more special when you made it to your preferences.

I think if armor had been included it'd have been a bit more interesting though - granted probably harder to make so many elements fit right on characters compared to weapons.

 

[ssssnake]

I like the Smithing mechanic. However, it's currently so overpowered that it eclipses all other ways of making money. I can easily generate millions of dinars without ever leaving town.

Things I would change in Smithing:

1: Get rid of the Tribal Throwing Daggers and the Pugio daggers. These are so cheap and so plentiful and they provide so much smelting metal that they make smelting too overpowered. Because of these two items, refining metals (other than Thamaskene) is pretty much obsolete.

2: Eliminate the random nature of unlocking parts. You should be able to focus on which parts you want to unlock. Unlocking higher tier parts shoudl be more difficult and should take longer, but you shouldn't have to suffer through unlocking 100 useless and practically identical pommels before you get lucky and unlock a decent sword blade or axe head or pole arm head.

3: Don't require the waiting in a town to recharge your smithing ability. Make the time for recharge longer, but allow it to recharge when you're out and about fighting, moving on the campaign map, etc.

4: Higher difficulty weapons should use more stamina. Forging a single Tier 5 weapon should be about all you can do in a day.

5: Cut the selling price for crafted weapons in half, and reduce it by half again for each crafted weapon you sell to a particular city in a single day. (This would prevent churning out dozens of cookie cutter weapons just for selling.)

These changes would cut down the money printing aspect of smithing a bit, while still allowing you to make some profits and allow you to forge cool weapons for yourself and your companions.

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

3: Don't require the waiting in a town to recharge your smithing ability. Make the time for recharge longer, but allow it to recharge when you're out and about fighting, moving on the campaign map, etc.

Honestly, I dont think this would benefit anyone.

I dont want it personally because it would remove the opportunity cost of smithing so it would become a "well.. I have stamina so I might as well".

And I dont imagine that those who do like smithing are going to appreciate that they can no longer make a focused smithing session.

 

[five bucks]

Yeah, what Sweyn said.

And while I agree with making throwing daggers and pugios provide less materials when smelted, and perhaps increase the stamina cost for higher tier weapons too, I don't think smithing needs much more nerfs than that. They already nerfed the income from smithing in 1.7.

 

[humility925]

Nah, I don't think increase stamina cost is good gameplay design, it's already lot of time waiting in town to level up all way to 330, that is couple year ingame at least!

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

We just need PVP campaigns so players waiting over and over to smith can be hunted down and beheaded by their more competent opponents. Same with the "trade horses for 10 years" guys, I'll catch you before you make your first trip!

Maybe in mount and blade 3

 

[Oltopeteeh]

1: Get rid of the Tribal Throwing Daggers and the Pugio daggers.

Simple mod of crafting parts, need change only xml file (not dll, Visual Studio - onle notepad and 5-10 min

At the same time, you can rebuild the blacksmith's hammer into 2 ordinary iron instead of improved, otherwise it turns out to be more profitable than analogues (peasant ax, etc.) three or two times (with or without stamina).

3: Don't require the waiting in a town to recharge your smithing ability.

This mod is already there. Plus stop waiting when the stamina bar is full. Conveniently

 

[ssssnake]

This discussion started me thinking about smithing.
I've started a new playthrough with self imposed limits that mirror my suggestions. I've actually decided to not ever buy weapons of any kind to smelt, and only ever smelt captured or crafted weapons.

Still very early game, but so far, it feels pretty good.

 

[Ask]

• Efficient investment: Athletics and Smithing is in the same END group, so the attribute points I invest into END gives out a payback of not just associated skills, but even more attribute points to spend. Not only can you just invest only 6 attribute points to END, and then unlock the 275 skill threshold through the extra END point in Smithing, you can also minimize the investment into VIG and offset it through Athletics and Smithing. It even gives out some free focus points.

I've thought about this a lot because in a way I like that going for smithing in theory doesn't gimp your character when it comes to combat. I say in theory because well the difference between 3 vigor and 7 vigor is minimal, but whatever, let's ignore that. Is it really that efficient though?

I've never really done the math in detail, but does investing 5 focus points into smithing and 6 into endurance pay itself? Is it better than straight up just investing focus points in one handed/two handed or whichever the smithing perk gives and vigor? Or investing the minimum possible focus points into smithing and the max you're willing to go on endurance?

Eitherway though, in a perfect world in which smithing finally isn't a money printer and is just as balanced as other money making methods I personally like the idea of smithing giving small stat/focus point increases so it works for more than just the smithing niche, much like weapon perks also have utilities for governors and stuff. Or maybe not, since it does mean that as a melee character you can level up smithing "for free" since you get some attribute/focus points "reimbursed". Anyways, I still don't think that's a very problematic aspect of smithing as much as everything else is, I'd much rather they fixed the other points instead of this one in particular, this gives some more flavor to character creation.

• Best items in the game: You get to craft the best items in the game for your own use, specialize the weapon to your fitting, so you and your party members are all wielding objectively the best tier-6 weapons in the game. It even allows you customization options not readily provided through the normal market, and craft a really good, long cavalry lance that can be couched.

I don't have a huge problem with this because on a high skilled characters most weapons are already one or two hit kills. The problem I do have with it though, is that currently it's our only way to access high quality variants of uncommon weapons like two handed hammers/blunt polearms. The base game should definitely have a higher variety of weapons in some classes, this is one of the biggest reasons why I usually take smithing, I love my meme weapons.

That said, I would also like to see more ways to obtain very high end equipment that isn't normally accesible, like the stuff you get when you become a vassal. I don't know what other ways you could acquire them, maybe from executed lords, random chance when marrying off someone, destroying a kingdom. I know that currently you can get some "unique" weapons from tournaments if you're lucky, like the Scalpel which is a very long one handed sword, or the Ambassador which is similar, etc., but these aren't particularily top tier, just have unique attributes that makes them stand out.

 

[humility925]

I've never really done the math in detail, but does investing 5 focus points into smithing and 6 into endurance pay itself?

In sense it's may be look good investing, but problem is how you play game and when come to level, each time your level go up, harder and lot of time next level to grow.

What was main goal in game?

If you seek to be lord or ruler, then no, this is not good deal, because you spent alot of time and point into that smithing, then leveling getting slower, and slower, where that point forced and stats point should be spent on cunning, soc, and Int where must had for Lordship or rulership.

But if you plan playing more of warrior/trade/smithing roleplaying, and never seek to be part of kingdom, never want to join or create kingdom, then it's might be ok to investing then.

Depend on goal end game. I already did that and it's painful to level up after I max out smithing, but won't join kingdom till my leadership and army buff are strong, but since I already spent max smithing, I had to level up in slow painful way, too many solo fighting bandit just to level up worn me out. Anything over 20 level is painful to gain level to get new forced and new stats.

So when you put 5 forced (5 level worth it) and I don't know how many you put into end stats, so it's could be 4 or 8 or 12 level worth of stats you put into because you get one new stats every 4 level.

So that is cost lot of investing and don't forget do you enjoy or not enjoy doing thing trying to get many level up to make up over 20 level?

So that is 5 force and couple stats into end, so that is lot and very question whatever it's worth it or not, if age and birth is on, then no, that is not worth it, as time are limited, with smithing waiting town eating up your time. if age and birth off, then it's matter of time before you got bored before you had chance to join rulership with strong backup skill.

Those crafted weapon masterprice, is just little tiny better than normal one, all for that 5 level of forced, and 12 level of 3 stats into end and time, time limited if age is on.
Making money is no issues, you don't need smithing to make money because there is many way to make big money like trade horse or keep raiding bandit or fighting army never end.

Only thing is worth is put every stat 3 and no forced put into, then good chance you get every first perk, That is mostly good investing.
Anything more than that is had to be careful and count the cost, be aware it's painful to level up after 20 level.

Only problem is it noob trap, thinking it's good deal but not. Thinking it's overpower but it's not.