I sure hope Gamescon 2019 is an improvement...

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xenoargh

Grandmaster Knight
No, seriously, I'm just kind of annoyed at this point, watching all of the pre-release footage that's available. 

None of the stuff up to now looks like a game I want to buy yet :roll:

For example, spongy combat and poor simulation of armor and weapons effects.  A guy wearing plate and maille is not just "taking less damage" IRL; he's basically invulnerable to a number of weapons types (like, swords don't work on plate, yo). 

Watching the Gamescon 2018 footage... was painful.  Watching some player shoot a guy wearing zero armor with an arrow, in the chest, and zero effect, other than a health bar depleting.  Sigh.


Moreover, the hype doesn't match the gameplay footage.  Complex physics and IK in the combat, for example?  I can't see it, honestly; it looks like Warband with higher-resolution skins, thus far. 

This is just a few other things:

Shield-bashing
People falling over from balance issues
Spear-setting
Overhand attacks with spears
Realistic damage systems (i.e., an arrow through a lung means, nope, they're not blithely going to keep charging you, hands getting lopped off, etc.)
Axes that behave like heavy blades at the end of sticks, not like swords
Shields that deflect attacks and act as offensive weapons, rather than damage sponges that act like walls
Large rocks falling on your head should be actually, you know, lethal
Spears should be the most common infantry arm; swords are for people with Real Money
Where are all the blunt weapons (and please don't tell me they magically "knock you out")
Why do horses still not kill each other when they collide at 25 MPH with riders on board
Why don't guys with lances occasionally get unhorsed when they hit people with same, or break lances, in 2019
Horses still magically run over humans without dying, breaking legs, or tossing riders
Despite their utter lethality in sieges and having been developed in early forms as early as the Pharaohs, apparently nobody in Calradia can be bothered to use crossbows
Despite missile weapons killing more soldiers than anything else IRL, even in the Middle Ages, no, you cannot use mobile mantlets to advance behind, dig trenches, archers still don't use plunging fire indirectly, etc.,
But you can use weak torsion catapults that the Romans would recognize to magically destroy walls that IRL are 2-4 meters thick
Horseman AI looks ripped straight from Warband and I'll bet it's just as badly performant
Commander AI still doesn't know any tactics besides, "form a line and charge the player at some point" despite Warband modders developing far better ones nearly a decade ago
Vaunted "modding toolset" is still not available to test by any actual modders, let alone bug-hunt, document or, if source made available, maybe even get working well before release
Level-design tools shown in said toolset don't appear to include navigation-mesh building tools to speed workflow, which was the main problem with Warband map development for anything but "my first map" projects... even though tools to do same were recommended to TW staff like, 5 years ago, IIRC
Hey, do boats work this time
Seriously, why does the economy look even more ridiculously over-complex
Why
I mean, is this a game about economics or a game about having fun pretending to be a lord
Whoever designed an economy that required flow-mapping should be fired forthwith for wasting your company's resources
Because it still won't prevent smart players from breaking it a week after release
The quality of the art assets is so variable that I'm still wondering whether it'll just look vaguely dated or genuinely bad
Especially the buildings and interiors, where the lighting system is still pretty bad by modern standards and materials / mesh sorting for translucency and a bunch of other things don't look like they're implemented fully
Where are interesting mini-games for when riding down harmless peasants gets dull
Stealth mechanics:  still MIA, AI can clearly see for miles, through hills and nope, you can't hide
But now you can brush a few random bushes onto terrain, unlike Warband where you could- oh wai-
What about that weather, though; at least static skyboxes are gone
And wow, horse manes have floppy physics
I'm so excited about mane physics
I'm not excited about build-a-sword game mechanics encouraging lame minmaxing and boring art and gameplay that looks 10 years old



Come on TW.  Get it together here.  Focus. 

The combat gameplay must be really, really on point this time.  Warband was meh, the modders showed you how. 

Forget the floppy physics, the gang wars in the cities, the flow-mapped economy.  All that ... stuff ... is not terrifically important, compared to getting the core of this thing right.  Players need to be able to smoothly and intuitively fight, move through the overworld, buy and sell loot and hire / fire troops.  These things must be as perfect as possible; if the rest is just OK, that's fine, call the release Beta and hope those modding tools actually work on day one...

-->back to the usual fanboi stuff, or flaming me, or whatever.  Honestly, I was planning to mod this thing when it arrived, but I'm so busy working on a game of my own now, I doubt I'll have time.
 

Pt.C

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
So you're the one who does mobile game?
That mobile game I think is ok, numerical balance, mechanics a little bit, although the ai towns have uncapped armies、 poorly played long-range weapons、 almost no politics、 action and ai performance is not so good, does not affect the symbol representing MB type mobile game.
There are many blogs that explain how mb2 mods are more detailed and convenient, but not saying it would be easier. Moder needs more experience with other software(U3d or 3dsmax、Maya、adobe etc...), does not include TXT, texture or sound image replacement.
Short said that people want to have a good mod.
 

xenoargh

Grandmaster Knight
I don't do mobile games.  I think you've got me confused with somebody else  :lol:

And no, the blogs weren't convincing. 
There were a lot of things a developer wants to see:
API documentation; everything from, "hello world" to "AI creation" and "Where is the economic code that you'll be wanting to rip out".  I'm expecting it'll be a lot like Warband:  giant piles of C#, little to no proper documentation, hardcoded Gotcha stuff, etc. 

I'm just hoping it's all a little more professional this time, with documentation of function calls, gamecode properly documented where needbe, and an API that allows for access to the deepest parts of the game, so that modders can, say, build a Zombie-hunting mod, where the player collects "survivors" and scours the Toxic Wastelands; no economy at all past bartering, powerful tools for storytelling, etc..  I'm not holding my breath on that.

Content workflow that covers mesh imports, material creation, rigging and asset assignment (i.e., the coding process to get your rigged armor into a game in a reasonable timeframe, explained well)

Map development, both macro and micro (i.e., the overworld and the battle / FPS scenes).  Warband's in-house tools were... OK in some places, pretty poorly designed in others, and the tool crashed a lot.

Profiling tools for scene analysis, code performance, combat analysis (i.e., why is my newly-coded C# combat mechanic causing spikes?  Why are framerates bottoming out when we look at this group of trees?  Why is the AI pathfinding here, but not there?)

Material development; just saying, "Hey, it's PBR now" is not relevant.  Modders will want to develop custom shaders, for example- some standardized PBR shader simply won't do.  What is the pipeline and how do we utilize the API to make it happen?

UI development:  most of what makes mods special is user interfaces.  Warband actually had a pretty amazing UI system; what it lacked was any sort of good design tools, to build UIs swiftly and efficiently and test on the fly.

The list there goes on and on.  They initially promised something that's kind of like Unity, but with a specific focus; C# development cycles and built-in toolsets, freedom to design animations, new character types, weapons, etc., etc., not all of the hard-coded limitations of the previous engine.  Details are pretty lacking, though, which is scary at this point; they should have solid tools by now.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I minimally expect last year's castrated features to be included and working at 100%. For me that would be an improvement... :iamamoron:

Armagan said:
Many thanks to everyone for their comments. The team here is working really hard to get the demo ready for Gamescom and we really appreciate your support.

Just to clarify a few things, the build we'll have in the booth will be different from the current development build in that, some features and pieces of content have been disabled. There are mainly two reasons for this. First, we want to focus our efforts on polishing the features that will be of most use in the demo. Disabling the rest allows us better manage our resources and time. Second, we do not want to reveal all the features and content in a single demo. We'd rather leave a good portion of the game as a surprise.

Here's a list of some of the things that are missing/disabled: 
Sieges
Crafting
Character generation
Kingdom and town management
About 2/3 of town scenes. We selected 2 town scenes per culture and all towns will be showing those.
Most companions are disabled. There will be around 10 that are available.
About 2/3 of planned perks are not yet implemented.


The suggestion to release this version as a demo sounds interesting, but that doesn't fit any existing model and it would take a lot of time and effort to hammer out the details and make this work. I would rather put that effort into development and do a proper early access version.
 

Pt.C

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
xenoargh said:
I don't do mobile games.  I think you've got me confused with somebody else  :lol:

And no, the blogs weren't convincing. 
There were a lot of things a developer wants to see:
API documentation; everything from, "hello world" to "AI creation" and "Where is the economic code that you'll be wanting to rip out".  I'm expecting it'll be a lot like Warband:  giant piles of C#, little to no proper documentation, hardcoded Gotcha stuff, etc. 

I'm just hoping it's all a little more professional this time, with documentation of function calls, gamecode properly documented where needbe, and an API that allows for access to the deepest parts of the game, so that modders can, say, build a Zombie-hunting mod, where the player collects "survivors" and scours the Toxic Wastelands; no economy at all past bartering, powerful tools for storytelling, etc..  I'm not holding my breath on that.

Content workflow that covers mesh imports, material creation, rigging and asset assignment (i.e., the coding process to get your rigged armor into a game in a reasonable timeframe, explained well)

Map development, both macro and micro (i.e., the overworld and the battle / FPS scenes).  Warband's in-house tools were... OK in some places, pretty poorly designed in others, and the tool crashed a lot.

Profiling tools for scene analysis, code performance, combat analysis (i.e., why is my newly-coded C# combat mechanic causing spikes?  Why are framerates bottoming out when we look at this group of trees?  Why is the AI pathfinding here, but not there?)

Material development; just saying, "Hey, it's PBR now" is not relevant.  Modders will want to develop custom shaders, for example- some standardized PBR shader simply won't do.  What is the pipeline and how do we utilize the API to make it happen?

UI development:  most of what makes mods special is user interfaces.  Warband actually had a pretty amazing UI system; what it lacked was any sort of good design tools, to build UIs swiftly and efficiently and test on the fly.

The list there goes on and on.  They initially promised something that's kind of like Unity, but with a specific focus; C# development cycles and built-in toolsets, freedom to design animations, new character types, weapons, etc., etc., not all of the hard-coded limitations of the previous engine.  Details are pretty lacking, though, which is scary at this point; they should have solid tools by now.
Blood and Steel very conspicuous.
 

xenoargh

Grandmaster Knight
I actually don't care about the town scenes, etc. probably as much as most players.

But... that alone says, "nope, we didn't put in a solution to auto-generate navmeshes and we're doing it by hand again"  :facepalm:

I don't care about the Companions; again, that may be done or not done, depending on whether the voice-work's done yet, animations, etc., etc., etc.

I care about the Sieges only insofar as they have one working that shows some new features.  What has been seen thus far... felt kind of staged and it wasn't feeling much less static than Warband.

What I want to see, honestly, is a 500-troop fight, with layers of mixed arms at least looking right, at a playable framerate.  Not these tiny little fights where a few cavalry show up and you can literally see the framerates tank.

Crafting?  Is this Minecraft now?  -->everybody starts flaming me now, lol

[EDIT]I still have zero idea what the above poster's referring to.  Did somebody make a Blood and Steel mobile game and make millions while I was away from here?  If so... well, good on them, I guess.  But it wasn't me![/EDIT]
 

Pt.C

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
xenoargh said:
I actually don't care about the town scenes, etc. probably as much as most players.

But... that alone says, "nope, we didn't put in a solution to auto-generate navmeshes and we're doing it by hand again"  :facepalm:

I don't care about the Companions; again, that may be done or not done, depending on whether the voice-work's done yet, animations, etc., etc., etc.

I care about the Sieges only insofar as they have one working that shows some new features.  What has been seen thus far... felt kind of staged and it wasn't feeling much less static than Warband.

What I want to see, honestly, is a 500-troop fight, with layers of mixed arms at least looking right, at a playable framerate.  Not these tiny little fights where a few cavalry show up and you can literally see the framerates tank.

Crafting?  Is this Minecraft now?  -->everybody starts flaming me now, lol

[EDIT]I still have zero idea what the above poster's referring to.  Did somebody make a Blood and Steel mobile game and make millions while I was away from here?  If so... well, good on them, I guess.  But it wasn't me![/EDIT]
For older players who don't play new games much, most players value the look of their armor and weapons, as well as the cool way they fight, with few asking for details. But mature and high-quality players put a lot of emphasis on detail.
 

RkT

Knight
WBNWVCWF&S
I am happy with what they are taking out week after week, several things have to be polished but in general I am delighted.
 

Phalnax811

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
xenoargh said:
I actually don't care about the town scenes, etc. probably as much as most players.

But... that alone says, "nope, we didn't put in a solution to auto-generate navmeshes and we're doing it by hand again"  :facepalm:

I don't care about the Companions; again, that may be done or not done, depending on whether the voice-work's done yet, animations, etc., etc., etc.

I care about the Sieges only insofar as they have one working that shows some new features.  What has been seen thus far... felt kind of staged and it wasn't feeling much less static than Warband.

What I want to see, honestly, is a 500-troop fight, with layers of mixed arms at least looking right, at a playable framerate.  Not these tiny little fights where a few cavalry show up and you can literally see the framerates tank.

Crafting?  Is this Minecraft now?  -->everybody starts flaming me now, lol

[EDIT]I still have zero idea what the above poster's referring to.  Did somebody make a Blood and Steel mobile game and make millions while I was away from here?  If so... well, good on them, I guess.  But it wasn't me![/EDIT]

I do care about scenes.

I do care about companions.

Without getting into other specifics of your complaints...damn, you got some of that holier-than-thou tone going.
 

CaptainLee

Sergeant Knight
xenoargh said:
Honestly, I was planning to mod this thing when it arrived, but I'm so busy working on a game of my own now, I doubt I'll have time.

Sounds awesome! When can we expect a blog?
 

FBohler

Knight
WBNWWF&S
Another forum user asking for realistic combat.
Next step is HEMA.
Next level is diseases.

No, thanks, I'm fine with a video game that plays like a video game.
 
I am all for realistic combat, I think it usually makes games more dynamic, tactical, and complicated. That being said, It is not what all players want to be done with the game and most would likely prefer the developers only focus on making it fun.

HEMA sounds awful, I think M&B has an amazing balance of arcade-y and intuitive/realistic feeling combat. Disease actually sounds amazing and would add a whole new layer to campaign strategy (punishing long and drawn out excursions in enemy territory).

As for your original list, it seems incredibly nitpicky. You want warfare to be realistic with mostly spears and proper archer tactics but you're also upset that the economy looks complicated? "Is this a game about economics or having fun pretending to be a lord?". Well a lot of people enjoy manipulating economics as a lord, in real life it was a part of owning/protecting land. This makes the game feel vastly more realistic, and will lead to unique and interesting situations. Maybe you are pushed to go to war with your neighbor who blocked trade routes to monopolize a market, or maybe you assault a bandit hideout that has lowered your cities prosperity (or worse starved them) by raiding passing caravans and stealing cattle, or maybe another lord desperately needs oil and your kingdom happens to have plenty... Flow mapping isn't just for the economy either, it's a way to make sure the AI isn't acting too predictable.

I agree with many of the complaints though, even mildly more realistic damage reactions would do wonders, complex physics and IK seem to have disappeared since 2016. This Gamescom will make or break my enthusiasm for the game, if it looks promising I will stay excited until release, if it looks disappointing I will try to forget the game exists until it releases and I will try it out regardless because it's Bannerlord.

 

Pt.C

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I don't know if tw will let people make mod in open beta, at least it could be about combat.
I think the open beta will be short, and tw probably won't give the tools yet. If possible, this will greatly reduce the time it takes to make mod after release.
 

Al_Mansur

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Although I'm not for such realistic combat as I think a game should remain fun, I agree with many of your points. As a whole, what we have seen of the game so far is not what I would have expected after 7 years of development. It's very disappointing and I'm also under the impression that they wasted a lot of time making not so important stuffs, if not totally pointless.
Tbh, I would have been fine if the game had a simple gameplay and only featured 3 factions with a dozen of settlements for each, but with very good combat, physics, graphics and freedom. That's the core of the game for me. The rest can be modded.
 

Huggles

Regular
MountAndMemeButterlord said:
I am all for realistic combat, I think it usually makes games more dynamic, tactical, and complicated. That being said, It is not what all players want to be done with the game and most would likely prefer the developers only focus on making it fun.

HEMA sounds awful, I think M&B has an amazing balance of arcade-y and intuitive/realistic feeling combat. Disease actually sounds amazing and would add a whole new layer to campaign strategy (punishing long and drawn out excursions in enemy territory).

As for your original list, it seems incredibly nitpicky. You want warfare to be realistic with mostly spears and proper archer tactics but you're also upset that the economy looks complicated? "Is this a game about economics or having fun pretending to be a lord?". Well a lot of people enjoy manipulating economics as a lord, in real life it was a part of owning/protecting land. This makes the game feel vastly more realistic, and will lead to unique and interesting situations. Maybe you are pushed to go to war with your neighbor who blocked trade routes to monopolize a market, or maybe you assault a bandit hideout that has lowered your cities prosperity (or worse starved them) by raiding passing caravans and stealing cattle, or maybe another lord desperately needs oil and your kingdom happens to have plenty... Flow mapping isn't just for the economy either, it's a way to make sure the AI isn't acting too predictable.

I agree with many of the complaints though, even mildly more realistic damage reactions would do wonders, complex physics and IK seem to have disappeared since 2016. This Gamescom will make or break my enthusiasm for the game, if it looks promising I will stay excited until release, if it looks disappointing I will try to forget the game exists until it releases and I will try it out regardless because it's Bannerlord.

I can appreciate realism for sure. Shooters for example that try to emulate realistic ballistics, gore, ragdolls, etc. Stories with a more dark, gritty, raw feel to them with authentic attention to detail. But there is absolutely a balance to strike and different people have different balances. I enjoy the realism of having brutal npc opponents who are intelligent and work together like people would. It would certainly be a sight to see two horses collide at full speed and just absolutely flatline. The chaos and screaming and crying on the battlefield. But I'm not sure I would enjoy the realism of my blade getting stuck in someone's armor, leaving me stun locked with nothing I can do. I would not enjoy the realism of randomly tripping because I switched up movement in opposite directions. I would not enjoy the realism of most things that make the game feel more clunky to play and get in the way of freedom, fluidity, responsiveness, etc.
 

Shaxx

Squire
Pt.C said:
RKStranger said:
Now the hyper train is running crazy...
Hyper, cyber, hyper, cyber, hyper, cyberpunk 2077!
But cyber doesn't show it publicly :cry:
Cyberpunk 2077 will be out prior to Bannerlord as Bannerlord is far from feature complete by TW's own recent admission. CDPR's previous project the Witcher 3 has already been out for some time and it started development a year after Bannerlord's began. CDPR has a team size advantage, but not by that much, especially back in 2011 when CDPR was a great deal smaller than they are now.

On top of that the sheer scope of the Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 are greater (and subsequently should take longer to make) than titles in the Mount and Blade franchise, which leaves the only conclusion that Bannerlord is undeniably in development hell as it nears it's 10th year in development.

I am sure to many of you the above statement will not be news, but at this juncture it is time to consider whether TaleWorlds will even qualify as a game developer anymore if it hasn't released a single game (that was not franchised out) inside of a decade come the end of the year.
 

John the Roleplayer

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Shaxx said:
... it is time to consider whether TaleWorlds will even qualify as a game developer if it hasn't released a single game (that was not franchised out) inside of a decade come the end of the year.

They clearly do qualify as a developer, as they have developed a game. Not releasing anything would only be problematic if they were primarily considered a publisher.
 
I can appreciate realism for sure. Shooters for example that try to emulate realistic ballistics, gore, ragdolls, etc. Stories with a more dark, gritty, raw feel to them with authentic attention to detail. But there is absolutely a balance to strike and different people have different balances. I enjoy the realism of having brutal npc opponents who are intelligent and work together like people would. It would certainly be a sight to see two horses collide at full speed and just absolutely flatline. The chaos and screaming and crying on the battlefield. But I'm not sure I would enjoy the realism of my blade getting stuck in someone's armor, leaving me stun locked with nothing I can do. I would not enjoy the realism of randomly tripping because I switched up movement in opposite directions. I would not enjoy the realism of most things that make the game feel more clunky to play and get in the way of freedom, fluidity, responsiveness, etc.
[/quote]

Agreed, i'm for realism right up until it gets in the way. There becomes a point where if realism takes away fluidity there is a immersion-breaking disconnect between the commands you are putting in, what you see on the screen, and in turn reacting to what is happening on screen.

Didn't TW add tripping in VC? lmao
 
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