How would you differenciate the armies of different Imperial factions?

[Totalgarbage]

Most of us would agree that having 3 separate imperial factions that play mostly the same except who they're fighting, and fight exactly the same on the battlefield, a bit lame. While the best way to make these factions more discernable is to make their faction politics play different than each other according to the lore, I think their army rosters needs a bit of uniqueness as well.

My suggestions would be to :

a) Make minor clans only hireable by the factions in their nearby vicinity (e.g. Jawwal only being hireable by faction that owns the southern part of Aserai, Skolderbrotva only by the faction that controls the north etc.)

b) Give the different empire faction locations different noble troops; Northern Empire should get a shock troop based on the Varangian Guard (I think they already exist in the game's lore as Vaegir guards), give the Western Empire a crossbow & shield infantry unit based on the Rhodoks (who are based on the Genoese/northern Italian troops iirc) and make the Cataphracts exclusive to the Southern Empire.

What do you think?

 

[sh1ny4]

Most of us would agree that having 3 separate imperial factions that play mostly the same except who they're fighting, and fight exactly the same on the battlefield, a bit lame. While the best way to make these factions more discernable is to make their faction politics play different than each other according to the lore, I think their army rosters needs a bit of uniqueness as well.

My suggestions would be to :

a) Make minor clans only hireable by the factions in their nearby vicinity (e.g. Jawwal only being hireable by faction that owns the southern part of Aserai, Skolderbrotva only by the faction that controls the north etc.)

b) Give the different empire faction locations different noble troops; Northern Empire should get a shock troop based on the Varangian Guard (I think they already exist in the game's lore as Vaegir guards), give the Western Empire a crossbow & shield infantry unit based on the Rhodoks (who are based on the Genoese/northern Italian troops iirc) and make the Cataphracts exclusive to the Southern Empire.

What do you think?

Well to make them distinct I can see two things :

• the change of leader being different (election every x year for the north, heritage for the south and whoever has the biggest army for the west)
• different troops adapted to what they fight and the lore:
  • Northern empire would be more ranged troop oriented , with bow bows and crossbows, and the infantry be axe wielding troops, with bigger shields as they face sturgia. So legionary, menavlions, archers and xbowmen. Cataphracts would exchange the shield for bow + arrows.
  • Southern empire would be cav oriented, as they are the noble one. No crossbow line but an earlier access to mounted archer; the menavlions would become a cavalry line. Cataphracts would be the heaviest and strongest of all three empire. They have similitude to khuzaits and aserais with this
  • Western Empire would be infantry oriented, as they are the military one. The strongest imperial infantry and menavlions, maybe some skirmishers, xbowmen to have range due to proximity with vlandia and battania. They fight knights and fians afterall. Cataphracts will stay as heavy cav but not as strong as the southern ones, because vanilla troop trees have to be boring...

Honestly I don't think it would be a good idea to have the three empires with distinct troop trees, as the vanilla trees are almost all the same (exception of battania and khuzaits). For example what I suggest would make of the western empire a battania II, while the southern empire would be vlandia III (sturgia being vlandia II)

As for the idea of minor clans I like the idea but the clans themselve are already poorly implemented, and I can't see lore wise which clan would stick with which empire for more than a contract. The varyags would have been great for the southern empire but they already are in the sturgian tree, lost legion might be closer to the western empire but they hate the change that came with their end so they shouldn't stick, and I don't see any clan sticking with the northern empire

 

[JunKeteer]

Give their armor some better color indicators - some battles, I don't know if that is a friendly cataphract or not; especially if it's just a minor difference in the shade of purple too.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I think the empire factions should be "anti factions" where only a small portion of their army, or better still only specific clans, hire imperial soldiers. The rest are like foederati from surrounding regions. So when you fight an actual core imperial army it's different from most of their vassals.

It always feels dumb fighting THE EMPIRE when it's just wave after wave of monocultural drones. They're almost 50% of the entire game, it's so ridiculous that they're all the same.

 

[Totalgarbage]

The change of leader being different (election every x year for the north, heritage for the south and whoever has the biggest army for the west)

I agree with these, but they would be political changes. Otherwise I think just having different noble troops would be enough to differentiate the armies.

Give their armor some better color indicators - some battles, I don't know if that is a friendly cataphract or not; especially if it's just a minor difference in the shade of purple too.

I think Duh already talked about this happening in the near future so you're in luck.

 

[NPC99]

Even different styles of helmets and shields in the three imperial factions would help. Tweaking troop trees and party mixes needs TW to move away from the one troop tree and one ai Lord party template per culture. The three factions need to share a culture to avoid ownership penalties as control of imperial settlements shift. I’d love to see factional sub-cultures introduced to TW’s xml structures.

 

[niekdegrijze]

yes i agree wih the general idea.
- some small changesin troop trees bases on geographic location,
- better collors
- some distinct armor pieces.

but the challange is in the the culture system. The troop trees are based on it. it would be more conveniënt if the troop trees are based on kingdoms.
That way you can have different troop trees, without messing up the culture.

 

[Totalgarbage]

Even different styles of helmets and shields in the three imperial factions would help. Tweaking troop trees and party mixes needs TW to move away from the one troop tree and one ai Lord party template per culture. The three factions need to share a culture to avoid ownership penalties as control of imperial settlements shift. I’d love to see factional sub-cultures introduced to TW’s xml structures.

Yes this is actually a great idea! I do want there to be functional differences between the factions as well (though it can also be done by modifying the troop templates between the lords of different imperial factions), but having different aesthetics between the same units such the northern legionary wearing fur and having a round shield, would be great.

 

[sh1ny4]

I forgot, some colour change would help a lot, I did it in my game with western being red + gold, northernn being yellow + black and southern being byzantine purple + gold

 

[JunKeteer]

yes i agree wih the general idea.
- some small changesin troop trees bases on geographic location,
- better collors
- some distinct armor pieces.

but the challange is in the the culture system. The troop trees are based on it. it would be more conveniënt if the troop trees are based on kingdoms.
That way you can have different troop trees, without messing up the culture.

Without needing to do entire new sets of troop trees; would it be possible for them to give those kingdoms their own specific cultural bonuses instead of general 'Empire'?

Ie.WE cheaper to upgrade cavs, or NE gain quicker infantry exp, etc...if that is in any way a factor in how party templates decide how they upgrade or what they recruit.
So naturally, you might see WE tend to have more cavs, or NE guys might start to drift to having stronger infantry units from surviving.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Even different styles of helmets and shields in the three imperial factions would help.

They pretty much can do this already- they have enough helmets for it. That they insist on making everyone, right down to the troops themselves the exact same is a waste of the assets they've created.

I think the empire factions should be "anti factions" where only a small portion of their army, or better still only specific clans, hire imperial soldiers. The rest are like foederati from surrounding regions. So when you fight an actual core imperial army it's different from most of their vassals.

It always feels dumb fighting THE EMPIRE when it's just wave after wave of monocultural drones. They're almost 50% of the entire game, it's so ridiculous that they're all the same.

There really is a shocking lack of 'Foederati' in a game loosely based on the fall of the Western Empire. Different Foederati troops for different parts of the empire could be interesting.

 

[five bucks]

A suggestion I had a while back was to make border villages offer a mix of Empire troops and troops of the culture bordering the Empire settlement

That would reduce the massive oversaturation of Empire troops and increase the number of other culture troops a bit, while also giving that "border region" feel to those areas, in a pretty easy way

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

They're supposed to be fragments of a single whole, not 3 totally distinct cultures so I don't think they have a problem with regards to troop trees. If anything, I'd rather they had more "civil wars" by default so there more factions waging war within the same game space. How many more? Frankly, I think it'd be really cool if most factions were only 1-2 cities with a couple castles and only a rare few had ~4 cities and assorted castles since it'd create a chaotic imbalance and make things more unpredicable and politically exciting.

However, that's not to say I would more troop trees even if mainly just as a difference of flavor. More's better in this case, I think, but I'd rather they be differentiated more politically because the current noble democracy political system only makes sense for the Calradic factions since it's basically their political system rendered in gameplay; a noble democracy (NE) that can also work like a junta (WE) with the possibility of a wannabe autocrat (SE). I think it'd be good if there were more political distinctions between heavily oligarchic ones (like Battania and NE) versus more centralized ones and ones that are attempting to work like early modern or parliamentarian monarchies (like SE and Vlandia). The political system is fluid enough as it is but I'd like there to be more "hard features" to really "solidify" it, like being in a more centralized country means you actually have to follow orders or be punished whereas a more decentralized country would be a free-for-all where would-be monarchs have to coax and cajole with transitional shapes in between.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Frankly, I think it'd be really cool if most factions were only 1-2 cities with a couple castles and only a rare few had ~4 cities and assorted castles since it'd create a chaotic imbalance and make things more unpredicable and politically exciting.

I agree, it woyld also make the starting situation a lot more believable since it wouldn't just be perfectly homogeneous states of exactly the same size. But since taleworlds is so terrified of making any of the factions inherently stronger than the others that's never going to happen.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

For my part, I just kinda rolled with the sort of anarchronism vibe for my own mod project.

North are an odd Justinian era thing with steppe helmets, excubitors, bucellarii and a more desperate vibe.

South are Komenian era Byzantines with all the cataphracts and varangian guards you know and love.

The West is a late Roman thing, except they persist a bit more and end up looking a bit Frankish as a result.

They all feel distinct, but also could have been once a part of each other. At the same time, they are influenced by different external factors.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

I agree, it woyld also make the starting situation a lot more believable since it wouldn't just be perfectly homogeneous states of exactly the same size. But since taleworlds is so terrified of making any of the factions inherently stronger than the others that's never going to happen.

I'd assume the reason why they're so "balanced" by default is to prevent anybody from uniting the continent without player intervention (for at least many decades or so) but the same effect could be achieved by making the continent more Balkanized. I mean, the culture/loyalty/rebellion system alone works as a check on kingdoms that expand "too quickly" never mind the way the A.I. is programmed to favor invading those already at war with others.

I doubt this "mode" or "map" will ever happen short of mods, but I think it'd be sweet at any rate since I generally prefer my settings to be scrambled like post-Dong Zhuo China in RTK.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

It also makes for a more interesting game start because your faction might only have one clan and a handful of lords, all of whom you can easily keep track of and interact with.

Have you played Gekokujo? That warband mod is a lot like that, there are some 20 odd clans in a full Japan map, and wars are fairly small scale to start off with, until the defensive alliances pile up and you get gigantic but rapid Honshu-wide wars, and since lords gradually join you it's never an overwhelming mass of NPCs. It also makes your own actions affect the lategame so much more, since taking a castle off a 4 settlement faction is unlikely to allow them to recover it, and a single army vs army battle usually decides the outcome of a war.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

It also makes for a more interesting game start because your faction might only have one clan and a handful of lords, all of whom you can easily keep track of and interact with.

Have you played Gekokujo? That warband mod is a lot like that, there are some 20 odd clans in a full Japan map, and wars are fairly small scale to start off with, until the defensive alliances pile up and you get gigantic but rapid Honshu-wide wars, and since lords gradually join you it's never an overwhelming mass of NPCs. It also makes your own actions affect the lategame so much more, since taking a castle off a 4 settlement faction is unlikely to allow them to recover it, and a single army vs army battle usually decides the outcome of a war.

Indeed, I can imagine!

Unfortunately not since I'm not really a PC gamer; all my Warband and Bannerlord experience is on PS4 lol. But I have watched Lu Bu Feng Xian (YouTuber) do a couple let's plays in the Gekokujo and Storm of the Three Kingdoms modules, so I've seen some pretty cool stuff happen thanks to some good modding.

 

[niekdegrijze]

Without needing to do entire new sets of troop trees; would it be possible for them to give those kingdoms their own specific cultural bonuses instead of general 'Empire'?

Ie.WE cheaper to upgrade cavs, or NE gain quicker infantry exp, etc...if that is in any way a factor in how party templates decide how they upgrade or what they recruit.
So naturally, you might see WE tend to have more cavs, or NE guys might start to drift to having stronger infantry units from surviving.

I don’t think costs are a consideration for the ai while choosing an upgrade path. But I could be wrong

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I don’t think costs are a consideration for the ai while choosing an upgrade path. But I could be wrong

I think at most, there is a chance for some lords to favour specific units depending on what is added to their hero.xml. But it results in stupidity like all archer armies, rather than cool sh*t like lord exclusive stuff.