How will battle mode work with class system and balance

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Sinderion

Recruit
How will the class system work in battle mode as it is currently? In BATTLE MODE, you get 1 life and can choose any class, so why would anyone choose light infantry skirmishers or light cav?

the system kind of works in skirmish because of the spawn system, having multiple spawns of cheaper units vs one spawn of an expensive unit.

I think light infantry at least needs something to make it viable to choose other than its cheap... skirmishers have thrown weapons I suppose, but once you throw them, your basicly a light infantry and javalins are like throwing paper areroplanes at the enemy (i know cav hate them cos they give infantry a tool to mitigate them somewhat, but they have been nerfed into oblivion)

shields, especially light infantry shields break way too easily, a swing of a savage sword will do them in one hit. Arrows and bolts should do no damage to them, maybe throwing spears could impact the speed so you cant raise them quickly? throwing axes should damage shields more.

I think 1 handed weapons need to be buffed for damage, you need to hit unarmoured enemies 3 or 4 times to kill them as it stands

armour should be more impactful, chance for arrows to bounce off (low chance) more mitigation against one handed swings that hit poorly (not sure how it works exactly atm, i know maces ignore some armour, I would add a small amount of armour peircing to axes). so yea heavy infantry should be tanks in a mele fight, able to shrug off some impacts almost completely (but still stagger when hit, so you cant just spam attacks) but the slowest unit by a mile.

2 handers, especially axes and vouges should be unbalanced and harder to whip around in a fight and have less impact if they hit too early in a swing, but they crush through armour if you hit at the optimal swing. longer weapons like menavlions should have a dead zone up close. 2h swords are not unbalance but deal less damage and less armor peircing.

on another note, i hate the perk system, much prefered it as gear choices alone, just bake the percentages into the class itself to seperate them from other classes (power throw for skirmishers, athletics for light infantry and skirmishers, more skill with shields and armour as heavy etc)

spears: make bracing more useful? does anyone use spear bracing in anger? would it be too op if spears acted as braced if you were holding an attack? probably.

add sergent and standard bearers into each class with different loadout choices, like NW.

and FFS remove the ability of non cav from mounting lol.

anyway sorry if its all over the place just wrote points down as they came


TLDR: Make classes useful outside of price for future battle mode. (i think the class system is a good idea btw)
 

Lagstro

Baron
The concepts of Bannerlord's current class system and a 'balanced' 1 life battle mode seem incompatible to me. The current class system is literally designed to be unbalanced among the classes and among the factions. This is admitted by TaleWorlds verbally on the forums, and practically through Bannerlord's class economy. TW has already repeated time and time again that their vision is to see both peasants and knights on the battlefield at the same time (hint: that's an inherently unbalanced scenario). It should also be obvious from the differing prices to spawn as a certain class that TaleWorlds knows that different classes have different usefulness values, with some classes being stronger than others. There are also some imbalances inherent with the asymmetrical "balance" between the factions. That part existed in Warband too, but the asymmetry is even more extreme in Bannerlord, consequently making Bannerlord harder to balance.

You also have the problem of not really having any upgrade paths if we assume that they just let players pick whatever class they want from round 1, as everyone will just pick the highest tier units of their desired class. That kind of gameplay could become mundane and boring very quickly, as you would practically only have 3 classes to pick from per faction, with very little variance based on perk picks.

If we assume that they only give you enough gold to pick a low tier class round 1, you basically only have a single upgrade path IF you happen to get enough kills to go above a certain gold threshold to afford a high tier class the next round. The problem with that system though, is that you can wind up with the disgusting scenario where one team is full of high tier troops and the other team is full of low tier troops in a single life game mode. That would practically be an insurmountable snowball problem. Not to mention, playing with low tier classes feels kind of lame as is.

Compare this to Warband's Competitive Battle Mode where every class has to create it's own base loadout with 1K gold on round 1, and can then slowly improve their armor, mounts, or weaponry (based upon their preference and available gold) depending on how well they are playing as the rounds go on. If you died while having good equipment, you would likely have to cut back your equipment expenses, but not necessarily all the way back to dumpster peasant tier like you would in Bannerlord. A 1K loadout in Warband provided you with a better equipment set than low tier Bannerlord classes. The gradual improvement of individual pieces of equipment in Warband led to a wider and more interesting spectrum of class builds than what currently exists in Bannerlord. In Bannerlord, you could at most upgrade from a generic trash peasant class to a generic heavily armored, well equipped class instantly, with there not really being anything in between. I know this has been brought up several times before, but Bannerlord seriously lacks good mid-tier classes. If TaleWorlds is intent on keeping Bannerlord's class system, they need to at least provide decent low, mid and high tier units for each class-archetype for each faction.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
The concepts of Bannerlord's current class system and a 'balanced' 1 life battle mode seem incompatible to me. The current class system is literally designed to be unbalanced among the classes and among the factions. This is admitted by TaleWorlds verbally on the forums, and practically through Bannerlord's class economy. TW has already repeated time and time again that their vision is to see both peasants and knights on the battlefield at the same time (hint: that's an inherently unbalanced scenario). It should also be obvious from the differing prices to spawn as a certain class that TaleWorlds knows that different classes have different usefulness values, with some classes being stronger than others. There are also some imbalances inherent with the asymmetrical "balance" between the factions. That part existed in Warband too, but the asymmetry is even more extreme in Bannerlord, consequently making Bannerlord harder to balance.

You also have the problem of not really having any upgrade paths if we assume that they just let players pick whatever class they want from round 1, as everyone will just pick the highest tier units of their desired class. That kind of gameplay could become mundane and boring very quickly, as you would practically only have 3 classes to pick from per faction, with very little variance based on perk picks.

If we assume that they only give you enough gold to pick a low tier class round 1, you basically only have a single upgrade path IF you happen to get enough kills to go above a certain gold threshold to afford a high tier class the next round. The problem with that system though, is that you can wind up with the disgusting scenario where one team is full of high tier troops and the other team is full of low tier troops in a single life game mode. That would practically be an insurmountable snowball problem. Not to mention, playing with low tier classes feels kind of lame as is.

Compare this to Warband's Competitive Battle Mode where every class has to create it's own base loadout with 1K gold on round 1, and can then slowly improve their armor, mounts, or weaponry (based upon their preference and available gold) depending on how well they are playing as the rounds go on. If you died while having good equipment, you would likely have to cut back your equipment expenses, but not necessarily all the way back to dumpster peasant tier like you would in Bannerlord. A 1K loadout in Warband provided you with a better equipment set than low tier Bannerlord classes. The gradual improvement of individual pieces of equipment in Warband led to a wider and more interesting spectrum of class builds than what currently exists in Bannerlord. In Bannerlord, you could at most upgrade from a generic trash peasant class to a generic heavily armored, well equipped class instantly, with there not really being anything in between. I know this has been brought up several times before, but Bannerlord seriously lacks good mid-tier classes. If TaleWorlds is intent on keeping Bannerlord's class system, they need to at least provide decent low, mid and high tier units for each class-archetype for each faction.
giphy.gif


I have been hesitant to comment, certainly not because of how trite this subject is, but tather because certainly anything that doesn't fit through the tube of The Vision.... is a waste of time here for us to feedbacking them.

Basically you have hit the nail on the head and summed up my opinion on the subject here very well; I subscribe to it. Add to all this the inconsistencies of the "passive perks" and "the new customisation system" that I recently criticised here.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Hey so just to clear things up, this is roughly what we have in mind for the battle mode design. I wont go into to much detail as some things are subbject to change. This is just to clear things up before this discussion goes off into to many directions.

We'll definetly only give players a single life per round. Otherwise your suggestion isnt to far of from what we had in mind:

Imagine Battle to be like one life Skirmish, but without the 12 player cap and with a “TDM like” gold system, that rewards you for your performance. Similar to M&B Warband, where you get gold for kills. In Bannerlord we expanded on this, so you'll not only get gold for kills, but also for assists and other things like staying alive. The amount of gold you get is dependent on the difference in value between yours and the opponents class. (You get more money for killing high value troops, and you'll get even more for doing it with a cheap class)

Your starting money and rewards are quite different to the current TDM model.

So you'll pretty much always be able to play most of the light and medium classes. If you want to play some elite class, you'll need to perform well to be able to afford it again, or perform ok but stay alive. It hinders the slippery slope you sometimes found yourself on in M&B Warband Battle, giving you loads of comback potential when playing cheaper troops (since you get more money and the opponents get less for killing you).

We hope this will lead to somewhat balanced teams, in terms of their troop composition.

Also:
 

Sinderion

Recruit
The way it is now, it wouldn't work. what I'm saying though is that each class in battle mode should not be defined by its price alone.

each class needs to bring something that other classes don't. I don't know how you would go about balancing it. I think the idea of the class system is to try to enforce battlefield roles rather than just infantry, archer and cavalry, it tries to to give some variety if only a little. I think it would be good if there was more variety in gear choice among the classes, rather than just a 2 perk system, but not straying far from the classes assigned role, whatever that is.

well looks like I am wrong there then, they are basing it around gold, "TDM like"
 

Einarcf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Honestly, I think it is going to be a race towards heavy cav and laugh all the way to victory unless all the maps are super closed. I cannot see how the bannerlord system is going to work for battle at all.

I wonder, why can't we have equipment system (like warband) for this new game mode. It is a better match for this mode than skirmish, clearly
 

Namakan

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Honestly, I think it is going to be a race towards heavy cav and laugh all the way to victory unless all the maps are super closed. I cannot see how the bannerlord system is going to work for battle at all.
no no, there is no snowballing with bannerlords system! literally impossible!
 

Errayn

Sergeant Knight
for me the best solution for Battle mod is (with not making big desing changes to the game since it is too late for that)
use classes and give them base cost and use 4 perk slots. Classes will determine armor costs and skills (role) cost.
4 perks slots will be like equipment slot and every perks will be and item and they have cost when you select them.
so as an example x gold for light inf. more than x gold for heavy inf
and battle mod perks will have gold cost when you pick them and will give you an item for that slot. every item perks will cost x
So they can still sell cool skins for that game mode and they dont need to redesing whole system. (Since the armor calculation is not equipment based and just class based) and Cav classes could use 5 perk slot for the horse.

I have some free time to kill letme simulate that thing (or mod it poorly) maybe it will be more clear for some people.

I have used Tdm slot for the simulating that thing. So other game modes don't interrupt with other game modes. So this perks will be only avalible in Battle gamemode for an Example I took a small video and photos of that modification if anyone wants to see.


image.png

image.png

image.png


if they are planning to use same style of play/perks (like what they did to siege and tdm) for that game mode better they should work on something else like private servers because it will not work and will be heavycav ****fest and will not be fun.
 
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for me the best solution for Battle mod is (with not making big desing changes to the game since it is too late for that)
use classes and give them base cost and use 4 perk slots. Classes will determine armor costs and skills (role) cost.
4 perks slots will be like equipment slot and every perks will be and item and they have cost when you select them.
so as an example x gold for light inf. more than x gold for heavy inf
and battle mod perks will have gold cost when you pick them and will give you an item for that slot. every item perks will cost x
So they can still sell cool skins for that game mode and they dont need to redesing whole system. (Since the armor calculation is not equipment based and just class based) and Cav classes could use 5 perk slot for the horse.

I have some free time to kill letme simulate that thing (or mod it poorly) maybe it will be more clear for some people.

I have used Tdm slot for the simulating that thing. So other game modes don't interrupt with other game modes. So this perks will be only avalible in Battle gamemode for an Example I took a small video and photos of that modification if anyone wants to see.


image.png

image.png

image.png


if they are planning to use same style of play/perks (like what they did to siege and tdm) for that game mode better they should work on something else like private servers because it will not work and will be heavycav ****fest and will not be fun.
If only it would be like that...
 

Errayn

Sergeant Knight
So as an update i tought it will crash if i try to join server. Because my files and server files don't sync with eachother. I was lucky i guess.
I took some photos of how would it look ingame (since the ui is not the same as armory) (it was not working correctly because of server and client sync issues)
unknown.png

unknown.png

unknown.png
 
So as an update i tought it will crash if i try to join server. Because my files and server files don't sync with eachother. I was lucky i guess.
I took some photos of how would it look ingame (since the ui is not the same as armory) (it was not working correctly because of server and client sync issues)
unknown.png

unknown.png

unknown.png
Thats great, nice work. Cant wait for custom servers.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
for me the best solution for Battle mod is (with not making big desing changes to the game since it is too late for that)
use classes and give them base cost and use 4 perk slots. Classes will determine armor costs and skills (role) cost.
4 perks slots will be like equipment slot and every perks will be and item and they have cost when you select them.
so as an example x gold for light inf. more than x gold for heavy inf
and battle mod perks will have gold cost when you pick them and will give you an item for that slot. every item perks will cost x
So they can still sell cool skins for that game mode and they dont need to redesing whole system. (Since the armor calculation is not equipment based and just class based) and Cav classes could use 5 perk slot for the horse.

I have some free time to kill letme simulate that thing (or mod it poorly) maybe it will be more clear for some people.

I have used Tdm slot for the simulating that thing. So other game modes don't interrupt with other game modes. So this perks will be only avalible in Battle gamemode for an Example I took a small video and photos of that modification if anyone wants to see.


image.png

image.png

image.png


if they are planning to use same style of play/perks (like what they did to siege and tdm) for that game mode better they should work on something else like private servers because it will not work and will be heavycav ****fest and will not be fun.
giphy.gif


A tear fell down my cheek when I remembered this procedure that you have carried out now and that we experimented in the first months of 2020 thanks to the genuine master server of Mister out of time in the Betalords group.

Here are a couple of screenshots by Younes test:

siii.JPG
pp.JPG
 

Horatius

Sergeant at Arms
WBNWVC
So as an update i tought it will crash if i try to join server. Because my files and server files don't sync with eachother. I was lucky i guess.
I took some photos of how would it look ingame (since the ui is not the same as armory) (it was not working correctly because of server and client sync issues)
unknown.png

unknown.png

unknown.png
Off-topic but how did BE not detect this? IIRC TW said the game should not allow you to launch the game with modified files, couldn't this be escalated easily to cheating?

BattlEye will not allow players with modified modules to launch the game. Currently, autoblock does not work in the game.
 

Einarcf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Off-topic but how did BE not detect this? IIRC TW said the game should not allow you to launch the game with modified files, couldn't this be escalated easily to cheating?
this assumes that everything with Bannerlord is working correctly...
 

Errayn

Sergeant Knight
Off-topic but how did BE not detect this? IIRC TW said the game should not allow you to launch the game with modified files, couldn't this be escalated easily to cheating?
I don't have enough knowledge about it but it should detect modifed dlls. Or injected dlls. Since i was using bannerlords scripting language anti cheat is not detecting that. I think bannerlord anticheat works like they had to flag cheats dlls beforehand to make you unable to launch the game or It allows trusted dlls.
there was a guy who wanted to use Nvidias 3D glasses and anti cheat was blocking this softwares dll. So he was unable to launch the game. (It was not Cheat. Some dlls was not signed by Nvidia. If i remember correctly.)
 

Errayn

Sergeant Knight
I just want to add small thing because of the recent patch. Since different gold cost for the classes in different gamemodes is also working now. Making a battle mode that haves a hybrit system (classes and equipment system) is on Taleworlds hands at this point (because nearly all of the background work is done for it to happen. It is rather they want to or not at this point.). If they are planning to use same style of perks they use in tdm or siege for battle mode. it will not work and eventually after dedicated servers you guys will cut already small playerbase to pieces. I and i assume lots of people in community (to have stable playerbase and to not have to download a mod) and even Taleworlds (to sell skins battlepass etc) rather see this happenning in official game (native) not in a mod. There is bigger multiplayer playerbase still plays warband and the ones quited because how bannerlord is stands. And probably this will be the last chance to taleworlds to get them. Also after seeing new changes like deleting death count makes me not to believe in Taleworlds about this matter. Since everyone knows how stubborn MP-Dev Team is. But i still have a very small Hope™. Please don't **** this up.
 
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KSHMR

Sergeant at Arms
If that is the direction we are heading in, then you might as well just make classes fully customizable. I think that is also the best way to make it fun, since people love freely selecting what they fight with.
 

Errayn

Sergeant Knight
If that is the direction we are heading in, then you might as well just make classes fully customizable. I think that is also the best way to make it fun, since people love freely selecting what they fight with.

Yeah it is but it is not that simple, They made it so that all of the armor pieces are just skins in multiplayer they dont have weight they dont protect body parts and all of the game itself feels from the start made for skin selling and blocking the future of multiplayer that haves fully customizable battle mod in the future that was why i was raged about it when i looked the files of the game (it is still so). So it makes nearly imposible to do fully customize to happen. Rather they need to do whole system from the start (thats an imposible thing to happen because it will broke all of the balance they made from alpha or beta call it yourself)

Skins are made for classes so they also need to find a way to sell them and should not be too complex for average joe and console players. (also think about future of mtx they are planning so it needs to fit the model of the all of the other game modes)

With current system if they try to implement full customization. if you buy foot armor it will going to protect your all of the body like head etc.
So it will be broken like hell

armor parts dont have weight modifier means they have to re balance all of the armor pieces to have one and thus needs balanced running speed (moving speed) in beta when they added weight for the first time if you have picked up throwing stone perk you would slowed so much (they didn't tested it before implementing it so it is so much complex work for them to do it for all of the armors)

same stuff for the armor points for the armor.

They made it so that damage modifiers works best with class system ( i mean the armors )
maybe even leads more problems that even i can't think of.

The UI desing itself is not capable of supporting of 11 perk slots (5 armor slots + horse + horse armor + 4 equipment slots) it will be realy unfriendly with current desing. So they need to recrate a ui for that game mode that will 100% not gonna happen. Also too complex for avarage Joe.

I could longer the list but it is so for now and it is because of bad foundation of this multiplayer and it is too late for that and should accept its flaws and try to find ways to improve at this point.
 

dijiTurk

Banned
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
@Errayn Where are the paid-perks come from? Did any dev said that there will be paid perks/abilities?

As i see, current direction wont offer any paid perks/abilities. They will probably offer us to buy skins for all equipments(for clothes or weapons) with in-game currency or real money or events. That's all. And, its quite suitable.

&

More skins for all equipments.
More passive perks.
More weapon changer perks.
Unique perks in stages(uncommon/epic/legendary types perks with huge + & - tale offers)
etc needed.

Balance should be in customized freedom. Not in a limited similarization. Characteristic balance is needed.
 
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