How to Rhodoks?

[stigma]

I've noticed the same thing about volleys. I run a very large division of high-tier archers, so sometimes when enemy infantry has just about closed with me I order volley-fire at a range where pretty much every arrow will hit something in the enemy ranks. The result is usually devastating, but as you two have noticed it seems to be far more likely to induce panic than just letting my archers continue to free-fire. Rhodok cossbowmen probably have THE biggest potential for this as they produce the single biggest hit in the game even though they fire slowly.

I think that might actually be one of the greatest benefits of volley-fire. I think morale and psycological aspects were big partsof why they used volley-fire in real-life too.

Some of that running and turning around to fight may be due to skirmish formation on archers though. That's exactly what skirmish does - it tries to flee from melee, get a little bit of distance, and then resume archer-fire. Unfortunately for unmounted archers - when significant quantities of cavalry decent upon them their attempts at outrunning horses are somewhat futile on most cases, leading to a slaughter-train instead. Even though this behavior could be "smarter" and the AI could realize that the archers are trapped and just have them melee to the death I don't mind it too much because it feels somewhat realistic actually. If a cav charge breaks down an unprotected line of archers you'd pretty much expect to see them break and run as a panic and self-preservation reaction. I just wish the AI would send them scattering in many different directions so that it made chasing them down far less convenient, especially if you only had a few cav units.

-Stigma

 

[Michiko]

Yeah I don't use skirmish mode with unmounted archers. It usually turns out terribly for me if I get flanked by cavalry. I prefer to have them sit still and I use my defensive troops like spearmen or rearguard cavalry to defend them from flankers.

 

[Leifdin]

I don't use skirmish for foot archers, too. At the beginning of the battle, I order them to stand few meters on from of my infantry. When the enemy closes up, I just command them to pull back a little. In ideal setup(a really steep hill) they are extremely efficient as they can continue to deal heavy damage.

 

[Michiko]

I did a bit of searching through the scripts to once-and-for-all determine whether the volley firing thing (or burst kills in general) really does lower their morale or not. Turns out it really does work that way.

A quick glance at how it works is that if somebody dies in the formation, all of the troops (known in the module system as "agents") nearby get a hit to their hidden score called "courage". This courage is only calculated in scripts and doesn't show up anywhere else. Each agent is given an amount of courage based on their level and a few other factors + random values whenever a battle starts.

Whenever the courage value drops to a certain level, the agent now has to choose whether to flee or not. Courage also seems to go up as the battle goes on, allowing troops that were fleeing to be recalled to reform their ranks if they go up past a certain threshold.

Now, if a bunch of agents die at a time, like for example via a single volley or a cavalry charge, all of the agents in that area that survived take compounded damage to their courage values, making them more likely to flee. Non-volley archery or other uncoordinated attacks will probably be faster for getting kills per minute, but since the attacks do not come in bursts each agent has a chance to regain their courage value until the next guy near them dies.

This is probably the key to my victories in large scale battles despite using smaller numbers of lower tiered troops (T3-T4, whereas most people try to use T5 troops and better).

Having finally confirmed that, I therefore conclude that crossbows in volley fire are probably the most effective troops for breaking morale early in the battle if used properly due to their range and the chance of penetrating shields, making the Rhodoks a really good army for large scale battles if you're patient.

 

[Anjin Miura]

That's some magnificient research you did there, Hanakoganei. Indeed, morale hit may be more helpful in a long term

I played only a bit yestarday, at day 160 now, enlisted as Rhodok mercenary to get some serious money (and have something to do finally).

I was raiding some Nordic villages when one Nordic lord (Haeda?) popped up with 80 people. I chased him down and attacked, just to see how can this army perform.

If I had any cavalry with me, I'd end up losing two or three people. Sadly I got knocked off by random death axe (guess I should have been more careful) and few remaining archers took down three or four soldiers more. Sadly, crossbowmen seem to have problems with archers - but I imagine that if have someone to quickly cleave it (or don't get axed to death like me xD) it's not even remotely a problem.

By the moment Nords started reaching my shieldwall, some were already trying to flee. And those who didn't...well, famous pointy death was awaiting them

Rhodok army is so hillarious. Just a bunch of guys who can simply stand in one place, do almost nothing and still brutally murder everyone. That's what you call Imperial style.

I'm so glad I'm playing Rhodoks! Thanks everyone once again for all the help, it is most joyous time I have with Warband since my first game in Native 1.143 year or two ago, around 1000 days as Khergit noob But I have fond memories of that game.

As for lower tiers army you talkin' about Hanakoganei, in the end I cannot prevent myself from promoting people. Also, I have a weird problem with crossbowmen promotion. I decided to not promote them for a while, and battle after battle number of guys able for promotion was growing...for a while. And then at some point it was randomly resetting. I was far from having full A4 group promoted, anyway - is experience on troops resetting/going down overall if you leave it for too long?

So now I have like 10 A5s, that is a world class bombardment. I renamed "Archers" to "Artillery" already. They drop base hard really - A8 Rhodok should have dubstep gun from Saints Row

But I am still at cavalry, as I can't decide - what do you guys think of Rhodok cavalrymen? I imagine they might be crap, but they'd be more of a support unit than main force. Do they really suck so hard? Anyone knows anything about them?

If there'll be more people struggling with Rhodok gameplay, maybe it'd be worth to add this thread to submissions list? You guys made some grade A research and analysis there. Would be a waste to leave it like that

 

[Michiko]

As for lower tiers army you talkin' about Hanakoganei, in the end I cannot prevent myself from promoting people.

You don't need to copy my style lol. I just like the extra challenge because if I don't lose once in a while, the game does get boring for me.

Also, I have a weird problem with crossbowmen promotion. I decided to not promote them for a while, and battle after battle number of guys able for promotion was growing...for a while. And then at some point it was randomly resetting. I was far from having full A4 group promoted, anyway - is experience on troops resetting/going down overall if you leave it for too long?

This has never happened to me. Not sure why it happens to you. I've kept a lot of troops at certain tiers even in other mods, especially the troops that change their equipment and play style drastically upon upgrade. Even putting them in garrison seems to maintain their current experience points so I can upgrade them even when I stuff them into a garrison.

But I am still at cavalry, as I can't decide - what do you guys think of Rhodok cavalrymen? I imagine they might be crap, but they'd be more of a support unit than main force. Do they really suck so hard? Anyone knows anything about them?

I generally don't use cavalry as Rhodoks (or Nords for that matter). It doesn't fit their style and only serves to waste the slot in your army. However, you could still use them tactically as foreriders.

Cavalry can be used to draw the jittery melee units out of formation, making them easier pickings in general. It's a gamble though and you might get your cavalry killed meaninglessly. That said, the Rhodoks are probably the worst candidate for a faction to use them.


If I play Rhodoks, it's really just crossbows and spearmen for me. I have at least 2 spearman formations (usually 4 really, using Split Troops), with half to be used aggressively if needed, and the other half as a rearguard for protecting the crossbows. Cavalry serve no purpose in my army. Rhodoks are also the perfect faction to use with mercenaries for me, as the A4 archers in the merc trees are also crossbowmen, and the I6 Landsknechte are also spearmen, and fit the play style perfectly.

 

[Anjin Miura]

You don't need to copy my style lol. I just like the extra challenge because if I don't lose once in a while, the game does get boring for me.

It's not about copying, it's simply interesting concept and I wanted to try it out. But it's not my thang.

XP bug happened to me only with that specific A4->A5 crossbowmen. Well, now that I'm promoting them constantly that's not a problem anyway.

Sometimes, when my army is still moving on its positions and enemies spawned surprisingly close I'm going in their direction and ride around for a while. Surprising how much can be achieved in this game by player alone. It completely screws their advance sometimes.

I need cavalry only to chase routed guys or finish off archers really. And I somehow like Rhodok cavalry, I simply never used it before. I guess I might give them a go one day, once I have considerable party size limit.

 

[Michiko]

I don't chase routed enemies lol. Not when I play Rhodoks anyway. Instead I deploy my men in a position so that if they have reinforcements, they'll immediately be met by my crossbow volleys as soon as they spawn. A win is a win for me, and I don't really need loot or exp so much, so I don't feel the need to kill everybody. My army is small and cheap and I can afford my wages very easily. I think I get my kicks from knowing that I did a good job with my tactics and won a battle especially when faced with a much larger force.

I guess that gives you an insight into why I prefer this style of play.

Meanwhile I'm a very merciful commander, and I allow most of my defeated enemy to live by allowing them to be routed instead of obliterated. I guess it fits my Rhodok roleplay in a way.

隐藏: In contrast to my Sarranid/Khergit play style

... No such mercy if I'm playing Sarranids or Khergits though. I chase down even the routed enemies on the world map and kill them all. But it is much harder to inflict the same kind of morale/courage damage using pure cavalry unless you have superior numbers. You have to maneuver your skirmishers a lot more and poke their flanks repeatedly before they break formation. Battles can last as long as 45 minutes if you're outnumbered as Sarranids/Khergits with the way I play it. It's fun though so I don't care even if I end up losing in the end. I just reload and replay the battle and try to use better tactics and whatnot or something.

 

[stigma]

weirdly I seem to have the opposite experience when it comes to archers and crossbowmen. Usually when I battle with another force that has significant ranged units I tend to lose more archers to crossbowmen when I play that way than crossbowmen to archers.

I think it's probably because I tend to have the most ranged units, and while I'm pretty much garantueed to win a straight up ranged contest a single lucky hit from a crossbow can fell even high tier units in a single hit. Meanwhile, most mid-tier archers usually need 2 arrows, although they do fire much faster of course. I think it's just that the statistical curve is much flatter and more even when I go against archers. Recently I lost 2 rank 7 swadian bowmen in a routine right against half my number of regular old mountain bandits who (some of them) use low-to-mid tier crossbows. I think that illustrates what can happen against crossbows if you get unlucky.

For the same reason I tend to fear aproaching a line of crossbowmen more than a line of archers. The archers can probably put out more damage before I reach them, but with crossbowmen you can get taken out by a single lucky headshot which throws your strategic plan out the window...

-Stigma

 

[Michiko]

When fighting crossbowmen that are firing in volleys I try to move immediately to both flanks starting from afar, then close them in simultaneously (a.k.a. pincer maneuver). This will usually force them to turn one way or another, reducing the power of their volleys in general. But I'm not saying this is possible without casualties, as crossbows tend to pierce shields (and I don't usually use troops with shields).

Anyway fighting a force with a competent number of ranged units is always scary to me, crossbows or not. o_o

 

[stigma]

When fighting crossbowmen that are firing in volleys I try to move immediately to both flanks starting from afar, then close them in simultaneously (a.k.a. pincer maneuver). This will usually force them to turn one way or another, reducing the power of their volleys in general. But I'm not saying this is possible without casualties, as crossbows tend to pierce shields (and I don't usually use troops with shields).

Anyway fighting a force with a competent number of ranged units is always scary to me, crossbows or not. o_o

If you fight using troops with no shields then yea ... you are a brave man my friend. Anytime I go up against a mono-horde of units without shields I just sit back and laugh as my archer-line cuts them down before thye even come within 100 meters =P

-Stigma

 

[Michiko]

lol D:

I sometimes have shields but I try not to use them too much because they slow my formations down. I prefer the fast maneuvering approach even with infantry. Even with Rhodoks that's how I play. I have at least 1 aggressive spear formation that I position to the enemy's flank. If the enemy turns to face them they become in enfilade of my crossbows. If they don't turn to face them, their flank is exposed to the power of the spearmen.

 

[J Awesome]

@J Awesome

I tried Rhodoks two days ago and went offensive on Expanded trooptree, aiming for I6 Guardia Ducale. Maybe I should've played with weapon orders more, I was getting average results while using offensive guys. But now that defensive can cleave with style, do I really need offensive?

Personally, I stay away from the Rhodok two-hander units because they sometimes spawn with only a one-handed weapon, which essentially makes them an I1 with heavier armor!! They're a huge liability unless you go into TweakMB and fix it yourself.
If you're going to use weapon orders, the I6-7 pikemen are tough as nails with sword/board and you could even use the high tier crossbowmen if you really had to (that striped armor ain't no joke!).

If anything, I love the Rhodok units with exception of the Two-handers (because of their items), and their crappy cavalry (because, well, Rhodoks)

 

[stigma]

@J Awesome

I tried Rhodoks two days ago and went offensive on Expanded trooptree, aiming for I6 Guardia Ducale. Maybe I should've played with weapon orders more, I was getting average results while using offensive guys. But now that defensive can cleave with style, do I really need offensive?

Personally, I stay away from the Rhodok two-hander units because they sometimes spawn with only a one-handed weapon, which essentially makes them an I1 with heavier armor!! They're a huge liability unless you go into TweakMB and fix it yourself.
If you're going to use weapon orders, the I6-7 pikemen are tough as nails with sword/board and you could even use the high tier crossbowmen if you really had to (that striped armor ain't no joke!).

If anything, I love the Rhodok units with exception of the Two-handers (because of their items), and their crappy cavalry (because, well, Rhodoks)

Aye, I think almost everyone underestimates high-tier rhodok crossbowmen as infantry-units. If you make them put down their crossbows they have great armor, massive shields that make them nearly immune to arrows while advancing, and perfectly decent melee weapons. Unlike most other ranged units these guys actually make pretty darn good heavy infantry units. Sometimes you are actually better off using them as melee units instead of ranged, such as if you are low on other infantry during a siege. If you have a few hero companions filling out the cavalry role you could actually have an army comprised of only rhodok crossbowmen and be well prepared for pretty much any situation - and that's a great strength in itself. Probably would be wise to split them up into several divisions though

-Stigma