How to implement orders?

[LordLemming]

This is a feature that I have seen mentioned many times throughout the forum: giving orders to troops.

I think this is a fantastic idea and this seems to be backed up by the number of posts that mention it. So what am I posting that is new? A different way of implementing this system which is in the spirit of mount & blade.

Most of the suggestions for this take the form of "I'd like to be able to assign these soldiers to particular groups by pressing ctrl-1 and then give them specific orders." To me, this doesn't feel very authentic; the spontaneity of the battles might be disturbed.

I'd suggest having just one extra orders key added; a "You there!" key. Pressing that key selects the troop directly in front of you and the rest of his stack when in the fight. You can then assign orders to that unit (move to my position, hold this position, charge etc.) directly. I think this avoids the detachment a RTS type command system might give to the battles, and in the spirit of M&B keeps things nice and simple!

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Example (from the perspective of the battlefield - Imagine that a group of 10 raiders have just caught up with your party of 6 crossbowmen and 4 manhunters ):

"We had been fleeing the rabble of disorganised but unfortunately numerous sea raiders for hours now. With every minute they gained on our position. If only I hadn't taken on that extra load of salt, we might have made good our escape...

No point dithering now. I reined in and around me the group stumbled to a halt. (ASIDE: this would be where the battle starts) I rode up to the edge of the nearest ridge to ascertain the bearing of our foe. The raiders were just topping the rise of the next ridge and were starting to lope down the steep side of the valley. I turned back to the men.

"You there!" (ASD: Theres that key...) I pointed to the Swadian crossbowmen I'd freed from slave traders weeks back.

"Aye sir?" replied the sergeant (ASD: IT would be useful to have an in-game acknowledgement from the troops so you could be sure who you were pointing at...), a man I'd shared many an evening's ale with before. No fear showed in his stony eyes.

"Move here and hold your position," (ASD: The equivalent of "Hold this position" in the current M&B) I said, indicating the ridge. "You there," I said, pointing to the outlandishly clad cavalry skirmishers. "Follow me."

I lead the horsemen around the edge of the ridge, a flanking ambush forming in my mind. As the first crossbow bolts began to fly and the first screams of pain were heard, I curved my mouth into a vicious smile. The raiders were hopelessly outmanouvered.

We rounded the edge of the ridge. "Ready?" I called to the horsemen. The riders nodded back. By now the raiders must be caught in the middle of the low land in the valley, as helpless as an upended turtle.

I dug my boots in.

"CHARGE!"

 

[Guryon]

My initial thought was that you could have preset groups...

1 - Cavalry
2 - Foot Melee
3 - Foot Missile

and maybe 4 - Skirmishers?

Anyway, all you would do to issue commands would be press the number key for the troop type, then press a second number key to give the order. Maybe with the option of 0 to reset the commands...

That'd be a piece of cake to use...

 

[LordLemming]

I dislike that approach as it feels quite impersonal to me. M&B is all about small group skirmishes; these are often very fluid and freeform in nature. Having everything already put into preset groups feels very rigid - with direct control over each stack of troops (and by the nature of M&B, the number of these stacks that you have to worry about is limited) you can instantly work with your warband as a close-knit team.

The direct ordering helps increase the sense of the chaos of battle too; your troops don't have time to listen out for general orders, they're busy defending their lives. They'll pay attention if you're yelling for them personally

Plus, why have 4 buttons when you can have one?

 

[Sameth]

I like that idea ut for those of us with 50 hired lades under our command and with reinforcements in a flow, it seems a bit tedious to move back and give the new group fresh prders,

I also suggest as an addon,at the start of the battle before the enemy rach you you could say "all of you, move over to at hill and await further orders"

and than you can sort them out raher than order your men individually.

sorry as the suggestion is rushed and drawn as I am really tired.

 

[Berny]

If youve ever played the game called i think, road to hill 30... id like it to be sorta like that as an example... you should seperate the group yourself (you actually pick where you want you men Calvary.. footmen...missile...skirmishers)

so you decide whos in each "Squad" you can have leaders (Borcha Marnid((i thing thats the Name))) be the leaders of calvay unit or your missile unit and so forth so forth... i believe it should be like this


you hit 1 for your calvary unit borcha answers "yes sir?" you hold the right mouse button and a circle apears on the ground (or this could jsut be a simple crosshair) where your looking at. You look on the far right of the mapand relase the mouse button. Borcha and his men move out

you hit 3 and marnid says "im ready" you hold the right mouse button again the cross hair appears and you look at the top of the hill to your left you release the button and Marnid moves out and holds his position.

You hit 2 a soldiers asks "Aye Sir" you hold the right mouse button again and look at the enemy forces comming in on you... the crosshair turns red and you release the button

YOur footmen charge as the enemy gets in range for your missile unit

you footmen make contact with the enemy you hit 1 and hold the right mouse button and look at the enemys the cross hair turns red and you release it Borcha charges the enemy from the right flank


well thats jsut my dream

 

[Sameth]

I have that, that would be a grand idea, wicked squad control, but it would a few more options like mounted skirmishers, foot skirmishers, foot hired blades, mounted hired blades, foot men, archers, knights, cavalry and your heroes maybe?

I always view my heroes as different from my troops and want them to follow my orders seperatley.

 

[Ingolifs]

Read these.

My current wish would be to have complex troop commanding abilities. I've said this before, I'll say it again, because I think its important. Something along the lines of you press Enter on the keypad, it brings up a list of all the troops in your army, like:

1. Borcha (84%)
2. Swadian Crossbowmen (6)
3. Swadian Men-At-Arms (4)
4. Swadian Knights (2)
5. Swadian Militia (12)

Then you press 1 through 5, on the keypad, and it'd 'select' that unit. Then another list comes up, something like:

1. Hold position!
2. Charge!
3. Retreat!
4. Follow me!
5. Switch to melee!
6. Switch to blunt weapons!
7. Switch to ranged!
8. Dismount!
9. Mount!

Stuff like that. Would be awesome.

My contribution to orders and formations:
A flank command. Basically tells the fighters to split up into two groups, and tells each group to attack at 90 degrees to the direction the enemy army is moving. The direction the army is moving could be the sum of all the enemy soldier movement vectors, i.e. the average direction.

Also a get into formation command. This arranges everyone into a wall one or two people deep. This wall arcs based on how scattered the enemy army is. At the start of a battle, where the enemy spawn in a big cluster far away, this line would be almost straight. If you're surrounded by enemies, this wall will form a circle.

Secondly, people want a way of ordering around different groups of troops. I suggest in the party screen you should be able to tag the individual troop types with a number from 1 to 5. You can tag as many groups with the same number as you want, and a group can belong to more than one number. This offers great flexibility for giving out orders to your units.

Pressing the number that corresponds to the group, (maybe with the keypad numbers) you then see some floating text on screen telling you of which group you are about to send the order to. Perhaps there could also be a list of the possible orders, along with the number you have to press in order to carry out those orders.

Let's say you press numpad 1. You see this float up on screen.

Group1: vaegir peasant(8 ), vaegir footman(3), vaegir veteran(9), Borcha.
1. Hold position
2. follow me
3. Charge
4. mount
5. dismount
6. flank
7. get into formation
8. cancel

Or if you don't use the numbers (like me), the corresponding letters that you configured show up.

If you press one of the order keys without pressing a group number, the order is simply sent out to everyone.

Sound good?

EDIT: wow, looking through old posts, someone else came up with almost exactly the same idea.

I'll use 'orders' interface as description of my idea.
It should be, like this (IMHO):

1 -> to footman:
1.1 Hold position. (1.1 means press 1, then 1 again, 1.2 - 1, then 2... so on).
1.2 Follow me.
1.3 Come to my position. (Move to your position, face where you are facing and hold it).
1.4 Toggle aggressive/defensive mode (aggressive - will attack when enemy is sighted. Defensive - only when fired at, or enemy comes real close. Also prefers blocking and parrying to attacks.).
1.5 Mount (should only work if the footmen are dismounted riders)
1.6 Line formation at my position (forms a line centered at your position, facing where are you facing. Should be unlocked with a certain tactical skill. Will not move no matter what.)
1.7 Shield wall formation (all those with shields form a line, and use their shields exclusively. Those with two-handed weapons and polearms will stand right after them (second line), using their weapons (with superior reach) to batter at enemies while they are busy bashing at first line. Also will not move no matter what. Should be unlocked with even higher tactical skill)

2 -> To archers (both mounted and those afoot, I guess).
2.1 Hold position.
2.2 Follow me.
2.3 Come to my position. (Move to your position, face where you are facing and hold it).
2.4 Hold fire/fire at will.
2.5 Mount/dismount toggle. Dismount by default.
2.6 Line formation.
2.7 Toggle skirmish mode on/off - (Archers will flee when enemy gets close on/off.)

3 -> To horseman (excluding horse archers)
3.1 Hold position.
3.2 Follow me.
3.3 Come to my position. (Move to your position, face where you are facing and hold it).
3.4 Toggle aggressive/defensive mode (aggressive - will attack when enemy is sighted. Defensive - only when fired at, or enemy comes real close. Also prefers blocking and parrying to attacks.).
3.5 Dismount.
3.6 Charge on/off.
3.7. Line formation.
3.8 Wedge formation. (Should be invaluable in breaking shield walls)

4 - > to all.
4.1 Hold position.
4.2 Follow me.
4.3 Come to my position. (Move to your position, face where you are facing and hold it).
4.4 Toggle aggressive/defensive mode (skirmish for archers)
4.5 Mount/dismount.
4.6 Footmen guarding archers formation toggle on/off. (Each archer will be assigned (a few is misbalanced in favor of footmen) a footman. It will be set to stay close no matter what, and attack enemies that get near him. All global, non-formation orders will not interrupt this formation.
4.7. Footmen guarding two-handed weapon users (or polearm, for that matter) - same as archers. Footmen will try to protect them, drawing attention and fighting defensively, while heavy-weapon users will rain down the hurt on foes). All global, non-formation orders will not interrupt this formation.
4.8 Mixed shield wall formation. (Ultimate! Should be attained at rather high levels. Behavior: Footman - shield wall. Archers - line in front of them, skirmish, then retread behind the lines when enemy closes in, hold fire. (Return in front of the line if no enemies are close) Cavalry on flanks, waits until enemy gets close, then ride forward a few, set charge and aggressive mode.).
4.9 Update formations - will update all formations for all units (in case someone strayed away, or reinforcements had arrived)
P.S.
While I understand that formation part is not that easy to code, at least first few orders definitely worth implementing. And if you’ll imp all this... Everybody will be abandoning Rome:Total War for this game .

 

[Berny]

i like those i really want to be able to do the formations... i think your i dea was the best with how scatterd the group is is how the wall will be shaped



but how are you going to tell them where to go? how to flank? and such it would need a lot of AI work. i think you should do it yourself. thats why i was think of the point andd click idea where your crosshair is should be the center of the formation

i think we should mix the ideas

 

[Bigwig]

I'd really like a BF2 style system, where you are the commander (minus fancy overhead view) and you order your "squadleaders" around, who in turn have troops under them. I'd completely revamp the leadership ability too, and make it mainly affect the number of captains like Borcha and Marnid you can have in your party. If your leadership is good, you can control 4-5 handpicked captains selected from a big pool, and they would be able to control a number of units depending on their leadership skills. I would also give captains different traits to make them unique as in the Total War series of games, eg one captain might be better at leading horse units, or another captain will be prone to randomly lead berzerk charges into the enemy.

I'd also make the troop loadout before a battle completely customizable, so that if you think archers are going to be particularily useful you could choose to only take captains with archers under them. When you're actually in battle the commands would be simple, you'd just select a captain, tell him to do something, and their units will follow. Of course if the captain is knocked out you lose control of that particular "squad". Captains could also have special command abilities depending on their tactics skill, maybe split up into different versions like "archer tactics" and infantry tactics". A veteran infantry leader would be able to make a spearwall formation, or a cavalry commander could make wedges for a brief example.

That would be my ideal system.

 

[Berny]

Yea thats my idea but id BF2 its online so you dont really have to do anything except issue the orders M&B your going to have to tell them where to go, my point and click ordering system.

so really its jsut like what i said and i do like the idea

 

[Guryon]

The main thing I would like is for it to not be too complicated. as I generally have the fastest horse in battle, I have no problem with commands being anchored to my location. I do it already to a limited degree. First thing I do in a battle is hit Follow Me and run to a decent hill, then I tell them to Hold This Position, then I run behind the enemy and distract them toward me, then order my troops to charge.

It would just be nice if you didn't have to order them ALL to charge, hence the suggestion for the class based orders. I want my archers to stay on their hill!! Fairly simple, but effective too...

 

[zaleukos]

I like the idea of having to be close to those you give an order to.

 

[GonZ]

I posted this before... it seems on topic. I think orders should be limited by range too.

There could be two steps.

1. select unit e.g. (key 1)All, (key 2)Cavalry, (key 3 etc)Knights, Men at Arms, Foot, Archers, Rabble

2. Select order e.g. (key 1)To Me! (key 2) Charge, (key 3 etc) Rally, Defend here, Advance slow, Advance, Retreat.

On selection of the order. Your character shouts it out eg. "Rabble, to me!", "Crossbows, advance slowly".

The effectiveness of shouted orders could be limited by distance between character and recipient of order. Or morale of the troops involved perhaps. Or the level of action on the field - orders could get drowned out by the sound of melee.

Of course voice overs in a variety of language would make the game more commercial.

 

[Skyrage]

I'd not mind also being able to be allowed to group units myself...customize it all that is..

 

[Berny]

yea thats wht i ment when i said you could decide who would be in your squad or group it would really be nice maybe have a group of archers with a couple calvery to cover them

 

[Chanfan]

I'd love it if you could have troops with sheilds assigned to be defense for other troops.

For example, sword + shield guy blocks attacks for pike guy, who is using the range to attack over the shield guy (or perhaps, between two shield guys). Or a shield guy blocking arrows for a pike or archer behind him.

 

[Luthius]

To achieve the formations which you would like you need a lot of men to fill it. Having your halbeards of axe men behind a shieldwall (battle of Hastings style) is an ace idea, but for the numbers available, you would be flanked easily. Also the AI needs this ability and would prob not be good enough to cope - no offence to the programmers but if the fanciness doesn't work the game will be rubbish. Loose formations would be alright, archers forward or behind for instance would be cool and being able to hold your men back from battle so they are not slain would be good.

One thing i would love to see is the ability to fight solo in a fight, leave the men behind. That way when there's an easily won solo fight you men don't have to die in it. Plus it allows you to do steppe cavalryesque horse archering and javelin throwing before your men arrive in battle.

A quick pre battle setup would be nice, if tactics is high enough!

 

[Raedwald]

Pre-battle setup sounds like a good idea. You then can setup your archers on a hill, your calvary on your left or right flanks, and your footman in front of you. Have a mini map of the battlefield and place them where you want them. Then issue them starting orders. That would be nice.