How do formations work in this game?

[Babaganoush]

Probably having some kind of bug going on.

None of the formations work. For example, when I tell them to shield wall, the lancers go front, and my infantry with shields start walking backwards for some reason.

Anything I'm missing?

 

[Ragnar Dreadbane]

when i order shield wall they shuffle to the left and ussually i have to tell them to hold position.
Similar to your problem?

 

[Babaganoush]

隐藏

This is how it looks like.
The lancers move up to the front, then the infantrymen start moving backwards and to the left.

Even if I try to make them hold position, they move up front for a bit, then start doing it again.

 

[Caba`drin]

You need to select which division you want to give the formation order to before you give the order. Your cavalry division shouldn't be moving if you're giving the infantry an order to form a shield wall.

 

[Thoridon]

I've had a similar issue with mine, playing Floris expanded with the 2.41 hotfix since tuesday (got the game last week, played native a few days before looking for a good mod). When I use the pre-battle instructions they work fine as long as I don't use formations... I can order groups to hold, follow, advance, step back etc. and they all do it fine but as soon as I try formations like shield wall or square it goes to pot.

I tried setting an infantry group to form shield wall and advance 10 yards but they actually retreat 10 instead. After initial deployment, if I select them and tell them to advance 10 they retreat 10 more. The direction seems to be backwards. Similarly telling a group to form in ranks results in them forming 3 columns instead.

I have it ticked for the AI to use formations in camp mod options but so far I've never seen them do so.

 

[Notsure]

Yeah i have had the same experience with the momotaru formation imo its very messy especialy since you cant use f1 to reposition them in formation.I had hoped something more stable would come out but i end up not using them at all either a shame really theres good potential.

 

[Babaganoush]

You need to select which division you want to give the formation order to before you give the order. Your cavalry division shouldn't be moving if you're giving the infantry an order to form a shield wall.

The screenshot is a bit confusing but I did select Infantry (1) to shield wall.

The cavalry movement was a different order all together to set up at a flank.

 

[Caba`drin]

Yeah i have had the same experience with the momotaru formation

These are motomataru's formations, edited by me to work with more than the 3 basic infantry/archer/cavalry divisions so you can give each of the 9 divisions individual formations orders.

since you cant use f1 to reposition them in formation.

Yes you can. Select your division, give the formation order, then use the F1 flag to direct them wherever you wish. They'll stay mostly in formation as they move and form up again where you left the flag.

I've had a similar issue with mine, playing Floris expanded with the 2.41 hotfix since tuesday (got the game last week, played native a few days before looking for a good mod). When I use the pre-battle instructions they work fine as long as I don't use formations... I can order groups to hold, follow, advance, step back etc. and they all do it fine but as soon as I try formations like shield wall or square it goes to pot.

I tried setting an infantry group to form shield wall and advance 10 yards but they actually retreat 10 instead. After initial deployment, if I select them and tell them to advance 10 they retreat 10 more. The direction seems to be backwards. Similarly telling a group to form in ranks results in them forming 3 columns instead.

As to the columns, are you meaning that the formation is deeper than it is wide? That would be odd.
And I'll need to look into why the +/-10 would be flipped...I don't get this behavior when I test it alone with PBOD.

Similarly, with the pre-battle orders ceasing to function when formations are involved...my most recent (which isn't particularly recent any longer) hotfix with PBOD took care of that, but it seems that once they are merged with Custom Commander's extra battle triggers the fix seems to fall apart. (People are reporting the same things in Bismark's Native Mod Compilation.) Essentially what is happening is the engine is getting overwhelmed at the start of battles and forgets to process certain things. We (I) will need to see what kinds of optimization can be made to prevent this.

I have it ticked for the AI to use formations in camp mod options but so far I've never seen them do so.

Have you faced them in a mostly even fight? If they outnumber you, they'll just attack, but otherwise this shouldn't be so. Any one else able to report on this?

The lancers move up to the front, then the infantrymen start moving backwards and to the left.

Even if I try to make them hold position, they move up front for a bit, then start doing it again.

This drifting is an known bug with moto's formations that he (and I...and Idibil...at the very least) are looking to solve.

 

[Notsure]

for me using f1 makes the units run on the border of the map or charge franaticly.I can confirm as well that lords dont use formations sadly.

 

[Thoridon]

Sorry for the slow reply. I've advanced a bit more in the save and had a fair bit more combat, so I've had more opportunities to test things.

The problem of ranks being deeper than the width stopped occuring. Not sure what happened earlier on but now ranks line up with decent width. Possibly related, if I tell my archers to hold position outside a castle I'm assaulting, without being in any formation at all, they'll line up in a vertical line rather than horizontal (in relation to the castle wall). Seems a daft thing for them to do, not sure why they do it.

The problem with both ranks and shield wall remains a reversal of the +/- function, as attempting to deply at the front with one of these formations still results in the group ending up at the back. I'm not sure it's purely an issue with too many instructions at the start of a battle as I can deploy without formations, then tell my infantry (for example) at the front to form a shield wall or ranks and rather than reform there they'll run 20 yards backwards to form up - not something you really want with the enemy advancing on you!

Sadly I've stopped using formations for now, as occasionally they'll work right but usually they end up with my troops running off to god knows where to form into ranks or the wall, and it leaves me with a gap in my line.

On the subject of lords, I've had a few use formations against me now but not completely. They seem to group archers and infantry into ranks and slowly advance, but still charge with cavalry. It could perhaps be due to them trying to use wedge for cavalry? I've not found the wedge to work for myself, so if it isn't working for them either they could be overriding the instruction with charge. Tends to give them a few units (cavalry) reaching my lines almost instantly and the rest slowly advancing, disconnected.

I'll try to make more use of formations and try to pinpoint exactly when they do work as expected and when they don't.

 

[Caba`drin]

Sorry for the slow reply. I've advanced a bit more in the save and had a fair bit more combat, so I've had more opportunities to test things.

I appreciate whatever feedback you can give, so thanks.

I'm not sure it's purely an issue with too many instructions at the start of a battle as I can deploy without formations, then tell my infantry (for example) at the front to form a shield wall or ranks and rather than reform there they'll run 20 yards backwards to form up - not something you really want with the enemy advancing on you!

Something that I know is not clear, but needs to be made clear for now (and fixed later) is that all formations begin roughly in the location of the player when the order is originally given. So if your infantry is ahead of you and you give a "shield wall" order, they will fall back to your position to make the shield wall. (This was part of motomataru's original system that got carried over in my tweaks...it made sense when only group 1-infantry troops could form a shield wall and that order also implied things for the other divisions, but now that the divisions are on their own and can be given individual orders, it doesn't make sense and is confusing.)

What you can do is give your troops the "shield wall" order and then IMMEDIATELY use the hold F1 flag to re-order them to hold their new shield wall in the position where the flag is.

I'll try to make more use of formations and try to pinpoint exactly when they do work as expected and when they don't.

Again, any feedback/observations are appreciated on this, so thanks for whatever you can give.

 

[Thoridon]

Something that I know is not clear, but needs to be made clear for now (and fixed later) is that all formations begin roughly in the location of the player when the order is originally given. So if your infantry is ahead of you and you give a "shield wall" order, they will fall back to your position to make the shield wall. (This was part of motomataru's original system that got carried over in my tweaks...it made sense when only group 1-infantry troops could form a shield wall and that order also implied things for the other divisions, but now that the divisions are on their own and can be given individual orders, it doesn't make sense and is confusing.)

What you can do is give your troops the "shield wall" order and then IMMEDIATELY use the hold F1 flag to re-order them to hold their new shield wall in the position where the flag is.

Aha, now I may have to postpone heading off to sleep to try that out That would explain things. If it is done that way, and they start running to you when you tell them to shield wall, then you flag them back ahead, will they still reform on you and then go to the flag location in a 2-step process or will they stop running to you and just form the wall at the flag? Sounds like the options are either wall shout and flag, or go stand in the middle of them to give the instruction to prevet them moving anywhere.

I can actually see a use for the current mechanism perhaps in a new shout.. "Form on me" or the like, for troops to fall back on your location and close ranks.

Anyhow, I was unaware of the fact that the wall would make them move to you and that certainly explains the backwards movement as I tend to be behind the lines when giving the shout Though one thing left unsolved is how the "advance 10" makes them retreat 10 when in formation. Could that be related, and they're advancing towards the player position - which often is behind them?

Thanks for the info. Incidentally, you mention a fix - is that going to be taking out the mechanic of forming on the player position?

 

[Caba`drin]

Aha, now I may have to postpone heading off to sleep to try that out That would explain things. If it is done that way, and they start running to you when you tell them to shield wall, then you flag them back ahead, will they still reform on you and then go to the flag location in a 2-step process or will they stop running to you and just form the wall at the flag? Sounds like the options are either wall shout and flag, or go stand in the middle of them to give the instruction to prevet them moving anywhere.

If you give the hold position order right after the shield wall order, they won't move back to your location, but form up right around the flag right away.

I can actually see a use for the current mechanism perhaps in a new shout.. "Form on me" or the like, for troops to fall back on your location and close ranks.

I think I'd leave that to an F1-F1 command.

Anyhow, I was unaware of the fact that the wall would make them move to you and that certainly explains the backwards movement as I tend to be behind the lines when giving the shout Though one thing left unsolved is how the "advance 10" makes them retreat 10 when in formation. Could that be related, and they're advancing towards the player position - which often is behind them?

It might be...or I put a negative sign in the wrong location. Haven't figured out which yet.

Thanks for the info. Incidentally, you mention a fix - is that going to be taking out the mechanic of forming on the player position?

Yes, my intention is to make it so when you give a formations order the division will form up around their current position.

 

[effemb]

I have same issue, since this thread is already started ill just put it here...

1) Formations for me dont work at all with PBOD.  in battle i can *sometimes* get divisions into formation.  typically only archers, into ranks (why ranks is actually just one huge long line though...sorta makes it pointless...id rather have them actually form RANKS, not just one long line).
2) shield wall has never worked, ive tried everything possible.  F1-hold to reposition them, F1-F1 to hold position...tried it with pike infantry, shield infantry, even cavalry and horse archers and my companions.  never seen it work.
3) square formation works once in awhile with infantry.  but doesnt seem to help them much as half the troops turn their backs to the front and they dont defend themselves when standing in formation.
4) when using PBOD, as i said formations do not work at all, ive tried every possible variation, the only result is that troops immidiately start to hold up their shields and move backwards, spamming all troops into the back "wall" and they still keep trying to move backwards, even though they have their backs up against the zone-wall.  they dont attack, they dont shoot missiles, and if i leave them like that until the enemy gets to them, they dont even defend themselves.  -- so anyway, i dont use formations in PBOD, but sometimes i use "stand closer" or "spread apart", and the "forward 10" or "back 10"....but most often when i use "forward 10", it actually moves the troops BACK and "back 10" also moves the troops back.

so the only functionality i have out of PBOD currently is that i have archers move "back 10" (or "forward 10" as it doesnt appear to matter) which makes them go behind the infantry.
that is, realistically, the only thing pbod does for me, i cant get anything else to work.
ive read your replies here too and tried out the F1 flag repositioning, but doesnt work either.
all the posts by the people in this thread are the same issues im having, i know exactly what theyre talking about because same behaviour i have.

maybe theres a trick that i havent figured out yet but none of what has been said in this thread changes the behaviour at all for me.

not sure what else i can give you to make my feedback more helpful....im using floris 2.41a bugfix patch with expanded...and umm....yes i also use different divisions and select the divisions 1 by 1 to give orders.  generally i use archers, cavalry, infantry, companions, and spears / horse archers if my army has them.
i do sometimes get the message that i dont have enough of a specific troop type to form a formation, but other than that, when i do have enough, the formations simply dont work...except for ranks...but it makes my archers spread out into such a long line that from one end to the other, the archers are nowhere near eachother.  id much rather have archer ranks formation actually make them form ranks...like 3-deep ranks or something, then i could put pikes or shield infantry to guard them on front/flanks.  as it is, its basically an archer firing line.  it works alright too but not exactly rank formation.

maybe i can make some videos, then you can see the behaviour im talking about, and maybe know what im doing wrong or what to fix.
let me know if that would help.

 

[Thoridon]

Since Caba's post I've found the best results having no pre-battle formation instructions. Nine times out of ten the troops run off somewhere you don't want them right at the start and it gets messy if you have them set to advance or fall back as well. Instead I use the pre-battle orders to set hold and distances only. At the start of the battle, when troops have reached their initial positions, if I then want infantry to shield wall I'll ride up to them, stand in the middle of them and give the order. They usually move left slightly but they form the shield wall pretty much on the spot with no running off 30 yards.

I haven't had many archers in my army since doing things this way but if I had enough to want ranks I'd do it the same; pre-battle the hold and distance only, move them manually with the F1 flag if I need to after the start and then when they're where I want them move up to them and give the order to form ranks.

The formations work in the battles for me now I know that my position is an important factor but I've found it much easier to simply leave them out of the pre-battle orders. I then also avoid advance 10 yards etc. once they're in formation to avoid the negative issue. Obviously not ideal, but a workaround until they've figured out exactly what the code problem is for the fix in the next version

 

[CardboardBoxx]

Just thought I'd throw it out there since it's technically in the same grab bag as formations and a search didn't bring up any previous reports immediately, but the "skirmish" or "avoid melee" setting - particularly with horseback archers - appears to make units retreat from battle.  They're marked as "killed" (even companions !!!) but after battle there are no ill effects besides the fact that all of the ordered units plus companions (even when not ordered) almost immediately exit battle when damaged in any way.

I hope this is also the reason the AI opponents always run away as soon as the 45 second requirement is up.  It's causing debug errors and basically a group of 1000+ units will run from my group of 200 whenever the battle takes place outside of sieges or town locales making open field battles trivial as my troops slaughter huge swaths of enemies while they're fleeing.  Perhaps it's a chain reaction of the AI, too, because reinforcements arrive, their fleeing buddies don't defend themselves and get massacred, so their morale drops out instantly and they flee, too, and then more reinforcements arrive, assuming that's how battle AI works.  When caught raiding a city this happens much less often, almost never.  It seems really silly.



I'm personally still trying to figure out how to do basic formations.  I dunno what you guys are doing but I can't get ANYONE to do any formations.  It'll say <group> can't do <formation>, so is holding, but instead of holding they charge, and EVERYONE charges, not just the group ordered.  I'd really like to be able to get archers into formations because during a siege I want archers to form a wedge or something so as to have an effective line of sight, because a group of 100 or so archers will line up across the entire battlefield and it's all really inefficient.

 

[effemb]

Just thought I'd throw it out there since it's technically in the same grab bag as formations and a search didn't bring up any previous reports immediately, but the "skirmish" or "avoid melee" setting - particularly with horseback archers - appears to make units retreat from battle.  They're marked as "killed" (even companions !!!) but after battle there are no ill effects besides the fact that all of the ordered units plus companions (even when not ordered) almost immediately exit battle when damaged in any way.

I hope this is also the reason the AI opponents always run away as soon as the 45 second requirement is up.  It's causing debug errors and basically a group of 1000+ units will run from my group of 200 whenever the battle takes place outside of sieges or town locales making open field battles trivial as my troops slaughter huge swaths of enemies while they're fleeing.  Perhaps it's a chain reaction of the AI, too, because reinforcements arrive, their fleeing buddies don't defend themselves and get massacred, so their morale drops out instantly and they flee, too, and then more reinforcements arrive, assuming that's how battle AI works.  When caught raiding a city this happens much less often, almost never.  It seems really silly.



I'm personally still trying to figure out how to do basic formations.  I dunno what you guys are doing but I can't get ANYONE to do any formations.  It'll say <group> can't do <formation>, so is holding, but instead of holding they charge, and EVERYONE charges, not just the group ordered.  I'd really like to be able to get archers into formations because during a siege I want archers to form a wedge or something so as to have an effective line of sight, because a group of 100 or so archers will line up across the entire battlefield and it's all really inefficient.

exactly ^^

have seen the fleeing thing happen too, which is why i tweaked the minimum flee time to 360 seconds (6 mins).  makes the AI stand and fight at least until some kind of battle decision has taken place (be it win or lose).

 

[Caba`drin]

Just thought I'd throw it out there since it's technically in the same grab bag as formations and a search didn't bring up any previous reports immediately, but the "skirmish" or "avoid melee" setting - particularly with horseback archers - appears to make units retreat from battle.  They're marked as "killed" (even companions !!!) but after battle there are no ill effects besides the fact that all of the ordered units plus companions (even when not ordered) almost immediately exit battle when damaged in any way.

I hope this is also the reason the AI opponents always run away as soon as the 45 second requirement is up.

These two items have nothing to do with one another. Since folks continue to complain about early routing, I'll double check again that morale is getting set correctly--we haven't changed anything from Native so far as in-battle morale goes, but folks don't seem to complain about this in Native so I guess it is worth a check to be sure it isn't somehow getting canceled out.

Yes, as coded, the skirmish order may cause your mounted horse archers to retreat occasionally (I cannot figure out why they show up counted as dead...that doesn't make any sense code-wise and they are treated as though they retreated in that they rejoin your group so it doubly doesn't make sense...been trying and failing to track that one down for months now). Alternative methods to getting skirmish to work has seemed prone to cause some battle lag or somewhat ineffective behavior. As I have time, I toy around with alternatives, but I've not found a good one yet. For foot archers, this shouldn't happen unless you order them to skirmish almost at the map border...with horse archers it does take a bit of baby-sitting, but less than needing to lead them around as one does without using skirmish.

 

[myo2p]

Bump-ish.

Has the "walk backwards" bug been fixed? Anywhere? If I'm blind and there a stickied post with WALK BACKWARDS BUGFIX HERE I apologize and you can insult me as you like.

 

[Ogrecorps]

I don't use any formations myself because I don't want to learn the commands. I experimented briefly with them and got confusing results so I'm sticking with function key commands.

As for the AI using formations, I have that ticked and they seem to separate into 3 groups: cavalry swooping about the field in an aimless conga-line, archers running around individually, and infantry forming a spikey blob (square?) with the enemy lords keeping pace with them on horseback always on the front right side of their formation.

As a Khergit HA I charge the enemy right out the gate and most of my troops zero-in on their frollicking cavalry, annihilating them pretty quickly. Once they are all dead my forces converge on the blob and archers and everything dies.

As a strategic battle lord I set up a line of infantry and tanked-out companions in front of my xbow legions, have everyone stand closer x1 and watch the enemy blob forward, get shot up so bad that reinforcements spawn, then blob backwards to link with those reinforcements just to blob forward again. As a rule, since the enemy's best units are in the first wave if they don't reach my lines then they never will. Then the only question is one of ammunition management.

TL;DR: I have AI using formations but it seems to cause them to fracture into 3 peices (cav and archers doing whatever they please, infantry and lords advancing and retreating back and forth) which are then easily overwhelmed 1 by 1.