horses crashing into soldiers like tanks

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CryptidByte

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I agree with Michael, looking at bannerlord, I think they should improve ai when using spears, and maybe add pike bracing.
Only if the pike is destroyed in the process, potentially with the man dying too. Pikes, again, were long lances. They did not exist at the loose time period this game is set within. If pike bracing is added, then I'd like full. Plated armored knights, and no shock cavalry. You don't have to complete the charge to murder people from horse back.

Also, most cavalry was always outnumbered. However in Bannerlord, you can evenly number your cavalry. I want them to be as effective as a knight should be, not some weird rock-paper-scissors contest. I like how Total War handles this the most. High tier cavalry will still wreck high tier spearmen... though take really unfortunate losses. Also, the spear units always have way more units. Cavalry should be hard to get, not nerfed for balance.
 

Honved

Knight
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Agree with CryptidByte, the way to nerf cavalry is to make it too expensive to lose in frontal charges, even if it does inflict a lot of casualties in the process. Frontal charges weren't the norm in this timeframe, but were done, most of them successfully but still too often unsuccessfully. When they worked, they were battle winners, but when they failed it was disastrous.

In the High Middle Ages, the heavily armored knights often lined up in the CENTER of the army, and conducted a frontal charge to open the battle. This, however, is NOT the High Middle Ages, and cavalry still don't have that kind of hitting power, although the infantry also lacks the long pikes for dealing with them.

Note that the previously discussed battle at Omdurman is described as having the horses "slowed to a walk" by the initial contact, and fight their way through with sabers and maces, NOT that they engaged at a walk. The initial impact using light lances was completely insufficient to break the infantry, and the infantry was confident enough not to break and run to avoid the impact. While 30 of the lancers were thrown from their horses, it also states that over 200 of the enemy were "overthrown". You don't do that by walking into them. If you're going to point out the 30 as proof of failure, don't ignore the 200 which point to the success of the charge. Once the lances were used, many of them would not be retrievable without dismounting to pull them from bodies, and it was standard procedure to continue combat with other weapons after the initial shock.

The point I'm trying to make is that ramming the enemy is NOT the purpose of the charge, the point is in forcing the enemy to dodge aside to avoid the impact. A wedge formation puts ALL of the threat onto a single point in the line, and if that breaks, the flanks of the wedge have the opportunity to take advantage of the chaos caused by the initial infantryman trying to push his way past or through the soldiers beside him before the collision. If that first infantryman panics, there is a high likelihood of the cavalry facing almost NO spears as the whole mass of troops tries to flee to the sides. The ones who fail to get out of the way in time are either lanced or trampled. The situation as described by the historians in that battle are what happens when the infantry actually feel confident enough to stand their ground, take the charge, and accept the inevitable casualties. Those infantry in the front ranks aren't "bumped" and lightly bruised by the charging horses, they're seriously injured or killed, whether they manage to halt the cavalry or not.

As pointed out, the cavalry will generally not charge the front of a line of spears, even though they'd probably inflict more casualties than they suffer, in part because the VALUE of the cavalry (and riders) is so much higher (especially in their own minds) than that of the infantry, and in part because they have the mobility to break off and try again at a more favorable moment, while the infantry have no option but to suffer the charge if/when it is made. The player SHOULD be able to order a frontal charge, and it SHOULD inflict serious injuries and kills, but the cost of doing so should be painfully high. A flank or rear charge should be deadly to an infantry unit not prepared to receive the charge, with little loss to the cavalry.
 

Alexs220

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Its so funny how hruza cites actual historians and Michael just tries to beat a straw man and doesnt actually provide any proofs of horses historically colliding with their bodies as a tactic.
By the way, Michael Bolton should be aware that we actually know what happened at Hastings, and that knights there did not actually charge shieldwall head on, they, as GitiUsir has said harassed the shield wall for hours, avoiding collisions, because that would be suicidal. The charge only happened when saxons broke formation and chased the Normanns.
 

Kreu2009

Sergeant
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I don't like how cavalry currently works.
If you play a custom battle you will see that 50 empire cav easely defeats 150 sturgian infantry. You don't have to think at all what your doing as cavalry commander. just let them charge at the start of the battle.
I would guess that with 70 cataphacts there will barely be any enemy in the campaign that is a threat to you. Most lords have way less than 150 troops and often most of them are just recruits.
But i will try out how OP cavalry is in the campaign.

The next problem i have is how a fight with heavy cavalry works.
In my test battles there often wasn't a single cassualtie in the first cav charge for neither side.
The first charge should cause the most casualties. If the cavalry then gets stuck inside the infantry formation they should quickly lose numbers. Right now they seem to barely take damage. There are just a lot of softhits until the rider breaks free.

My suggestions:
- Horses should deal more damage.
- Horses should die faster. You never should survive more the two charges into a spear thrust.
- Cavalry needs to take more damage once they get stuck.
 

imgran

Squire
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Agree with CryptidByte, the way to nerf cavalry is to make it too expensive to lose in frontal charges, even if it does inflict a lot of casualties in the process. Frontal charges weren't the norm in this timeframe, but were done, most of them successfully but still too often unsuccessfully. When they worked, they were battle winners, but when they failed it was disastrous.
Case in point, the Battle of Pharsalus, where an excellent cavalry commander (Labienus, a contemporary and nearly an equal of Caesar who was known for his brilliant use of equites), blundered into a hidden line of spearmen and cost Pompey Magnus not just the battle, but the war. They lost so many cavalry that Caesar was able to counterattack with a much smaller cavalry forces and drive in Pompey's left flank before he could respond. Result: Defeat in defail.
 

Occyfel

Veteran
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Only if the pike is destroyed in the process, potentially with the man dying too. Pikes, again, were long lances. They did not exist at the loose time period this game is set within. If pike bracing is added, then I'd like full. Plated armored knights, and no shock cavalry. You don't have to complete the charge to murder people from horse back.

Also, most cavalry was always outnumbered. However in Bannerlord, you can evenly number your cavalry. I want them to be as effective as a knight should be, not some weird rock-paper-scissors contest. I like how Total War handles this the most. High tier cavalry will still wreck high tier spearmen... though take really unfortunate losses. Also, the spear units always have way more units. Cavalry should be hard to get, not nerfed for balance.
That sounds good.
 

CryptidByte

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Mouse over my user name, and note the join date. I've had this very argument, on these very forums, probably when you were still in diapers :smile:
Don't bother responding to people like that. They're rude, and trying to get a rise out of you. A troll statement, accompanied by clown pictures - extremely rude.