horses crashing into soldiers like tanks

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Shatti

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so, i don't wanna talk too much about delivering my point,
because this problem have been explained in the past

but for any reason they are like this
-balancing
-noob friendly
-spears are goofy and thats why they are like this

i just wanna say without caring about realism or any other reason, they just feel like buses and it's not immersive
please fix them and make them stop when they crash into 10 men
 

LeafBL

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Use a spear and the horse insta-stop. Different horses/mounts are better or worse at it. Heavy cavalry like cataphracts are obviously good at it. But come at a greater cost and are slower. Not saying the game is good and balanced. But the cavalyry charging down troops is not a problem for the devs to fix but rather the player taking necessary actions to counter it.

Now 6v6 skirmish at this time might not be the most immersive to begin with.
 

Shatti

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20 Ai soldiers aren't stopping them
watch this guys


watch from 2:10
and 3:12
this is very op in my opinion and of course i respect everyone opinion
thanks,,
 

Habut

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20 Ai soldiers aren't stopping them
watch this guys
Your own troops don't block you so he only runs over like 5-6 enemy troops there. Ally troops don't count as collision, they make way for you. Also all enemies having their backs turned helped I think.
 

Brynjahr

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He goes through allies as intended
Barges through a two-deep line on an armoured horse and he is armoured at about 25-30mph therefore he would 100% break the line and they wouldn't stop him as they aren't braced with spears about, you don't stop a car trying to hit you by facing another way and not moving it would just kill you
 

Brynjahr

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If you actually watch from 3:10 at 0.25 speed he actually hits his own men in the line, therefore, shouldn't slow at all

also remember this is a video of a mod so doesn't represent MP or SP its buggy AI in a mod
 

Mrozek

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20 Ai soldiers aren't stopping them
watch this guys


watch from 2:10
and 3:12
this is very op in my opinion and of course i respect everyone opinion
thanks,,
It's a mod, in original game it doesn't work like that.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
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but for any reason they are like this
-balancing
-noob friendly
-spears are goofy and thats why they are like this
-AI that is not good enough to handle horses realistically -ironic for game that calls itself "Mount & Blade"
-lack of any psychology or "morale" effect in the game
->>> cavalry needs to cheat otherwise it would be useless

To be fair to devs however, these are not trivial things to implement in this sort of a game and as far as I know, nobody have ever done so.
 

Habut

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-AI that is not good enough to handle horses realistically -ironic for game that calls itself "Mount & Blade"
-lack of any psychology or "morale" effect in the game
->>> cavalry needs to cheat otherwise it would be useless

I mean this has been written 6 times already but firstly that is a mod where AI is weird. Secondly your own troops don't block you so there isn't weird in that scene. Decen sized horse(avg. 700kg) with full armor going max speed(60km/h) will run over 4-5 people easily. That is like a car.

There is psychology and morale however it is not activated in that mod. Sometimes you would see some soldiers going afk, that means they should be dropping weapons and fleeing but since it is not implemented in the mod they are not doing it, they are just freezing in place.

I am not sure what is your point on the last one
 
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Decen sized horse(avg. 700kg) with full armor going max speed(60km/h) will run over 4-5 people easily. That is like a car.

You can't use the real-world fact that a horse is heavy to justify the insane cavalry mechanics in the game currently, because:

1. The weight of an object moving laterally doesn't (much) affect how hard you get hit. Gravity is a vertical force which doesn't really affect momentum. A 40 ton tank which hits you at 20mph is going to impart just as much force as a person who hits you at that speed. If you're standing in a faultline and a moving tectonic plate taps you at 2mph, you won't suddenly get knocked back because of the mass of the object (which is trillions of times more than a horse). Due to the latent elasticity in all objects there is also a limit to how much energy can be transferred in a hit.

2. Horses don't charge headlong into anything stationary. They're not suicidal and no amount of training will override their survival instincts. The "charge" we often read about in sources is usually also a rout by the infantry before they get hit.

but more relevantly,

3. Mount and blade is a game with a disproportionate amount of heavy cavalry, very small battlefields, and no cohesive formations. Even the biggest battles in warband are more like foraging skirmishes, and it's difficult to balance cavalry to be realistic but also not completely wipe the floor in those situations. The solution is to make it much easier for individuals to kill horses which are charging them head on, hence the spear-rearing mechanic. Without these concessions it would just turn the game into a bull in a china shop, which may be more "realistic" in a very short-sighted sense, but doesn't benefit the game.

There is psychology and morale however it is not activated in that mod. Sometimes you would see some soldiers going afk, that means they should be dropping weapons and fleeing but since it is not implemented in the mod they are not doing it, they are just freezing in place.
The lack of morale isn't the issue, it's the ability of horses to crash through multiple lines of stationary infantry without taking much if any damage, while imparting more damage than some arrows. It's absurd.
 

Roudrac

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Enough said.

2. Horses don't charge headlong into anything stationary. They're not suicidal and no amount of training will override their survival instincts. The "charge" we often read about in sources is usually also a rout by the infantry before they get hit
Warhorses were trained in middle-ages to be able to do so. There are sources and accounts speaking of horses crashing into each other (and often dying) in battle from the medieval times to the 19th century.
 
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FBohler

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so, i don't wanna talk too much about delivering my point,
because this problem have been explained in the past

but for any reason they are like this
-balancing
-noob friendly
-spears are goofy and thats why they are like this

i just wanna say without caring about realism or any other reason, they just feel like buses and it's not immersive
please fix them and make them stop when they crash into 10 men
I second this. Cavalry should get stuck if they ran into the melee.
 

Habut

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I was replying to someone and their points. They made a point of "realistically" and I mentioned how nothing in that video seemed weird. You can compare planets and weights and make different cases all you want. Average sized horse with(or even without) armor running at max speed would absolutely run people over and throw them aside/away like nothing. Here is a relatively small horse doing the same, just youtubed it and the first result :

I actually hate the realism argument in games but when someone makes a point of realism in a wrong way I wanted to point it out. There isn't anything unrealistic about horse running people over.

It is the same with psychology and morale, their point was there was no "psychology and morale" I pointed out there is.

In light of those I really see no relevance to your post with regards to mine.
 
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The things people complain about are hilarious. Stand in front of a charging horse you can tell me about your experience after...
 

Honved

Knight
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You can't use the real-world fact that a horse is heavy to justify the insane cavalry mechanics in the game currently, because:

1. The weight of an object moving laterally doesn't (much) affect how hard you get hit. Gravity is a vertical force which doesn't really affect momentum. A 40 ton tank which hits you at 20mph is going to impart just as much force as a person who hits you at that speed. If you're standing in a faultline and a moving tectonic plate taps you at 2mph, you won't suddenly get knocked back because of the mass of the object (which is trillions of times more than a horse). Due to the latent elasticity in all objects there is also a limit to how much energy can be transferred in a hit.
Clearly, physics was not your best subject in school. Gravity itself doesn't affect horizontal momentum, but MASS does. The force of an impact is dependent on the mass of an object multiplied by its speed. The object being hit can usually react to some degree, and bend or move to absorb some of the velocity, so a tectonic plate moving at inches per year won't hurt you in spite of the incredible mass, (although it can break a concrete wall that has no ability to bend or otherwise absorb the movement), but faster impacts are less able to be absorbed in that manner. Being hit by a light object such as a thrown baseball moving at 70 miles per hour can be painful, but nowhere near as deadly as being hit by a 2 ton motor vehicle moving 70 miles per hour, because of the vehicle's far greater mass. A relatively light bullet is deadly at nearly or over 1000 miles per hour, since your body has practically no ability to respond to an impact at that velocity. A charging horse will probably not kill you on impact at 20-30 miles per hour, but it will very likely inflict some serious injury. At a walk, that same horse would probably do no more than to push you aside, however, because of your body's ability to move to absorb the relatively low-speed impact, as well as the lower (mass x velocity) energy imparted to the target.

As said, one of the major differences between a "war horse" and a riding horse was that the war horse was deliberately and extensively trained NOT to stop before impacting a person. They still could balk at charging a group of people, particularly with a several man deep line of shields. The horse won't charge at anything it THINKS it can't push aside, which is a big difference from charging a single person or a thin skirmish line.

The game could use some kind of "horse morale" factor to determine whether your horse will or will not charge to impact, or whether it will balk, veer off, or slow to a walk. Different kinds of horses would have higher or lower morale, so your riding horse won't intentionally run down an opposing soldier (it may accidentally run them over while fleeing), but your fully-barded charger won't so much as flinch at the idea.
 

urugamer5

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I thought they was more op than warband as well until i saw video of 200 cav vs 200 heavy archers and they masacrate them...
Hope they not be so op, in warband cav was "easy win"
 

GitiUsir

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Somewhere in the 18teen hundreds, hey look they formed a square!, nice! now we can run them through with cavalry... Cavalry! aim for the sides of the square and you won't miss a single soldier in the row!

In a campaign horses should be balanced because they are expensive and difficult to aquire so hopefully generals don't want to waste them in stupid charges. In those multiplayer matches balancing is beyond any common sense but I suppose they have some sort of effectiveness value per unit, so 1 cavalry is like 2-3 rabble.

I hate when players crash their horses on purpose just to knock down and get an easy kill for their team mates nearby.
 

Habut

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I hate when players crash their horses on purpose just to knock down and get an easy kill for their team mates nearby.
I am not in beta but from what I have seen so far that seems to be the point of cav so far. In MP cav seems to be mostly supporting like disrupting ranks, knocking down people, pressuring archers etc.