Horse prices

[graphia]

Ok I'm not sure if this should be in Suggestions or whatever, so move it if necessary:

On a recent trading trip to Suno I couldn't help noticing that the prices for horses seem seem a little...off. For example (with a trade skill of 1 and Marnid in my party):

Heavy Courser

Price: d598
Armour: 9
Speed: 10
Maneuverability: 10
Charge: 15
Riding: 2

Spirited Steppe Horse

Price: d1046
Armour: 5
Speed: 8
Maneuverability: 10
Charge: 10
Riding: 2

Now, I'm not complaining that I can get a better horse for cheap I just think Armagan might want to look into how much the 'spirited' modifier increases prices, especially when spirited chargers can cost about d13,000.

 

[Sir Saladin]

He has put a lot of thought into the prices, I think he wants the denars to be worth a lot throughout many levels of gameplay so that for example if you successfully play up to a level of 20 you have a good horse and decent armor but maybe not the best possible reinforced black armor and spirited charger. I like the economy change so far but I'm sure he is still trying to find the right balance. Spirited might be better but it could be like a prestige item that you don't really need to win a battle but it makes you feel like you finally became Caesar.

 

[Ingolifs]

Sir saladin, i'm not sure if you even read the first post. The guy was complaining about how a spirited steppe horse costs more than a heavy charger, even though the heavy charger outclasses it in every way.

 

[Narcissus]

I think that it was exactly what Sir Saladin said, to be honest.

I believe that he changed the modifier's cost as a beginning way to increase the value of the Denar. It will still need lots of tweaking, but it was a start in the right direction.

It is good to point out inconsistencies like the one that Graphia found though ... it makes it easier to know where tweaks should first be made.

Narcissus

 

[Tarrak]

There are some oddities with the Spirited attribute as well Thick or Reinforced regarding armour and shields.

It can hardly be the correct values as they are vastly more expensive.

 

[jrawlings]

There are some oddities with the Spirited attribute as well Thick or Reinforced regarding armour and shields.

It can hardly be the correct values as they are vastly more expensive.

Right, the best modifier weapons/armor/horses are priced way higher than the stock item (reinforced black armor for 22k denar for example).

The problem with the current system is that you buy the stock hunter instead of the spirited saddle horse and you do this all the way up the chain until you get your uber character who can afford that black armor. The end result is that anything spirited/reinforced/balanced won't be purchased in the midgrade classes.

IMHO, for horses, the price could be some algorithm that is stats based. For each point in speed, arguably the best trait, the horse should cost 50 denars. For each point in maneuver, 25 denars. Each point in charge, 15 denars. Each point in armor 25 denars. So, the heavy courser would cost 1200, while the spirited steppe horse would cost 925.

Similar algorithms using damage, damage type, reach, speed could be used for weapons, and armor bonus and weight for armor.

 

[Vachir]

It seems odd to me that prices are based on the pre/postfix names on items rather than their actual stats. In this example it's fairly obvious which horse is better, and the price would make much more sense to reflect the better horse rather than the modifier on the name that tweaks the stats slightly.

Maybe for this example, pricing should breakdown something like this:

Horse A (name doesn't matter)

Armour: 9
Speed: 10
Maneuverability: 10
Charge: 15
Riding: 2

Total stats: 44 (*20)
Old Price: d598
New Price: d880


Horse B
Armour: 5
Speed: 8
Maneuverability: 10
Charge: 10
Riding: 2

Total stats: 33 (*20)
Old Price: d1046
New Price: d660

Obviously the formula would need to be more complex to account for more than incremental increases for higher stat values, actual 'value' weight of each stat, and possibly price spikes for the higher stat horses in each riding level, but you get the general idea. I would probably also extend this to items other than horses, as the price structure right now seems to jump around a lot, I guess due to the prices being based on name modifiers rather than the actual stats of an item.

 

[jrawlings]

@Vachir: Like I said above, stats-based pricing would work better. however, I think some stats may be more valuable than others, so I came up with the algorithm in my last post:

IMHO, for horses, the price could be some algorithm that is stats based. For each point in speed, arguably the best trait, the horse should cost 50 denars. For each point in maneuver, 25 denars. Each point in charge, 15 denars. Each point in armor 25 denars. So, the heavy courser would cost 1200, while the spirited steppe horse would cost 925.

Similar algorithms using damage, damage type, reach, speed could be used for weapons, and armor bonus and weight for armor.

Basing prices on the prefix is a simple way to do it, so long as the modifiers aren't outragous. Right now, taking black armor as an example. Reinforced black armor is almost 10X of normal. This is true for most "reinforced armors" If the modifier were reduced to something like 2-3X it may work... I'd have to do the math.

Using an algorithm that is stats based has several advantages:
1. Ensures "fair" pricing of all items. The horse example I gave in last post is good enough to show this.
2. If coded properly, it is EASY to make adjustments to the overall economy, simply by changing a SINGLE variable. let x=base item cost. Let y=50x, where y is the modifier for the speed stat on horses and z=25x where z is the maneuver stat. You want to cut the economy so everything is 1/10 the value (as was done on the 0.6 to 0.7 update), change x by 1/10!
3. Easy to make changes to all items of a class (e.g. weapons) for balancing by changing a SINGLE variable (not the same one as in 2, though ) For example: If it is deemed that blunt weapons are overpowered, adjust pricing of all "blunt" modifier weapons by 2X.

 

[Vachir]

Heh, so you did. I must have not seen it before I started my reply, it takes me a while in free time between phone calls, email etc. at work.

I was thinking about this some more. If you wanted to keep pricing based on the pre/postfix attatched to an item, couldn't you simply apply the formula to the stat boost that modifier applies? For example if "Uber" (as in "Uber steppe horse") gives +4 speed, +7 armor and +2 maneuverability, could you just add up (4x50)+(7x25)+(2x25)=d425 on top of the base cost for the horse? You could of course base the standard cost of the horse on the same formula as well, or it could be different. In fact, you could put in an additional 'value' multiplier on each item and pre/postfix so that each one could be individually modified to fix any specific balancing issues.

 

[jrawlings]

You could do that, but that is essentially doing the same thing, so long as the multipliers for the "uber" part of the stat are the same as the "normal part." You could also add an extra price modifier for the prefix in addition to the increased price due to the stats ass well. Either way works, but adding that extra modifier is what got us into the trouble we are in now, methinks. However, as you said, a "value" modifier may help in overall balancing.

 

[Vachir]

I think the problem now is that the pre/postfix is a multiplier. I'd have to do some math but at least it seems that way. Some modifiers just gouge prices by ridiculous amounts because they're multiplying the original cost of a horse rather than simply adding to it an amount relative to the stat bonus of the modifier.

 

[Volkier]

I prefer to buy spirited hunters over chargers. They are faster, a LOT more manuerable, and have a better saddle : (Well steppe horses and stumpen have the best saddle in game, but their stats are really too lousy to bother ::*(

 

[Tarrak]

I prefer to buy spirited hunters over chargers. They are faster, a LOT more manuerable, and have a better saddle : (Well steppe horses and stumpen have the best saddle in game, but their stats are really too lousy to bother ::*(

Yes, the heavier the horse the better is the Spirited prefix, and the opposite with the the worse the horse (opposite as in Heavy).