Horse Charges and Collision.

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Orion 说:
I think you're misinterpreting what I said. What I have in mind is not a stun/knockback to the affected teammate, but rather just... Gently move him to the side.
I think you're right.  :lol:

No problem with that then, except it kinda devalues positioning for infantry if putting their opponent between them & a horseman doesn't mean anything. This might make it too easy for a horseman to charge into an infantry fight & bump/knock down enemies because he no longer has to consider half of the people on foot.
I didn't think of that. That's a problem.
Maybe having the horse lose a considerable amount of speed as well as pushing teammates they collide with could work better.

Anyway, I just hope that TW can figure something out. I think that horse controls in Warband are pretty bad for a game called Mount & Blade. Hopefully TW is addressing these issues.
 
Comparing M&B to more contemporary games which feature horseback riding (like Red Dead Redemption 2, Witcher 3, and Kingdome Come: Deliverance), we see that games overall still treat horses very much like tracked vehicles. They can move forward, backwards, turn while in motion, and turn while stationary, but there's no sidestepping/strafing, variations on posture or position in the saddle, or any other horse dressage or agility. TaleWorlds isn't ahead of the curve on this, but they certainly aren't lagging behind, either. If anything, controlling horses in Warband is more precise and responsive than in any of the examples I mentioned, primarily because horses in Warband are "dumb." They will run full speed into whatever you point them at, they won't resist turning because there's a bit of level geometry in the way, and you control their speed gradually & linearly rather than walk vs. run/sprint. I haven't once felt like I could play the majority of a game from the saddle like I can in M&B, all other games feel clunkier and sloppy.
 
It certainly beats Oblivion's horse control, and you couldn't fight from horseback at all in that game.

There's certainly plenty of room for improvement, but it's probably no worse than average for the genre, if not slightly better.
 
My opinion, in the witcher 3 the horse is ridden in a natural way... I have not tried RDR2. I still need to see this kind of lateral movement in mount and blade (maybe w+d/a s+d/a at the same time?):


min 1:40 + 2:50
 
Orion 说:
Comparing M&B to more contemporary games which feature horseback riding (like Red Dead Redemption 2, Witcher 3, and Kingdome Come: Deliverance), we see that games overall still treat horses very much like tracked vehicles. They can move forward, backwards, turn while in motion, and turn while stationary, but there's no sidestepping/strafing, variations on posture or position in the saddle, or any other horse dressage or agility. TaleWorlds isn't ahead of the curve on this, but they certainly aren't lagging behind, either. If anything, controlling horses in Warband is more precise and responsive than in any of the examples I mentioned, primarily because horses in Warband are "dumb." They will run full speed into whatever you point them at, they won't resist turning because there's a bit of level geometry in the way, and you control their speed gradually & linearly rather than walk vs. run/sprint. I haven't once felt like I could play the majority of a game from the saddle like I can in M&B, all other games feel clunkier and sloppy.

There actually is dressage in RDR2 once you've bonded with your horse to max.
 
if you guys could stop with complaining and adding new ideas then we would get bannerlord faster or they are reworking it the 10 time
 
TaleWorlds should look into studying how Red Dead Redemption 2 dones their horses. Realistic and lovely horse charges. IT would make cavalry fights even more epic. Maybe even source the Rockstar engine and copy the horses into their game?
 
Balexander 说:
if you guys could stop with complaining and adding new ideas then we would get bannerlord faster or they are reworking it the 10 time
^^^

In one of the latest dev blogs they are talking about beta. I doubt at this state of the game, and the considerable time it has taken to get to an almost finished game in almost a decade that changing something like that would be a thing they would like to do. Unless they want 2 more years for the game they can do it.

Considering the multiplayer is already a disappointment for many under us, i hope they also don't **** this up.
 
Orion 说:
Comparing M&B to more contemporary games which feature horseback riding (like Red Dead Redemption 2, Witcher 3, and Kingdome Come: Deliverance), we see that games overall still treat horses very much like tracked vehicles. They can move forward, backwards, turn while in motion, and turn while stationary, but there's no sidestepping/strafing, variations on posture or position in the saddle, or any other horse dressage or agility. TaleWorlds isn't ahead of the curve on this, but they certainly aren't lagging behind, either. If anything, controlling horses in Warband is more precise and responsive than in any of the examples I mentioned, primarily because horses in Warband are "dumb." They will run full speed into whatever you point them at, they won't resist turning because there's a bit of level geometry in the way, and you control their speed gradually & linearly rather than walk vs. run/sprint. I haven't once felt like I could play the majority of a game from the saddle like I can in M&B, all other games feel clunkier and sloppy.

Old comment is old but yeah I agree.  I spent about a whole 3 minutes on horseback in Skyrim. Never fought on horseback in Assassin's Creed Odyssey - only used it as a vehicle.  Didn't like Witcher 2 enough to ever get to a horse? The others games I haven't played.

But in Warband/VC/mods, I can single-handedly turn the tide of a lopsided battle on horseback. Hope it is equally as fun and much better in BL (pushing through your own troops that clog your way).
 
Phalnax811 说:
Orion 说:
Comparing M&B to more contemporary games which feature horseback riding (like Red Dead Redemption 2, Witcher 3, and Kingdome Come: Deliverance), we see that games overall still treat horses very much like tracked vehicles. They can move forward, backwards, turn while in motion, and turn while stationary, but there's no sidestepping/strafing, variations on posture or position in the saddle, or any other horse dressage or agility. TaleWorlds isn't ahead of the curve on this, but they certainly aren't lagging behind, either. If anything, controlling horses in Warband is more precise and responsive than in any of the examples I mentioned, primarily because horses in Warband are "dumb." They will run full speed into whatever you point them at, they won't resist turning because there's a bit of level geometry in the way, and you control their speed gradually & linearly rather than walk vs. run/sprint. I haven't once felt like I could play the majority of a game from the saddle like I can in M&B, all other games feel clunkier and sloppy.

Old comment is old but yeah I agree.  I spent about a whole 3 minutes on horseback in Skyrim. Never fought on horseback in Assassin's Creed Odyssey - only used it as a vehicle.  Didn't like Witcher 2 enough to ever get to a horse? The others games I haven't played.

But in Warband/VC/mods, I can single-handedly turn the tide of a lopsided battle on horseback. Hope it is equally as fun and much better in BL (pushing through your own troops that clog your way).

I can't stress this enough. In my entire life there were only four games that I allowed myself to use horses: Shadow of the Colossus, The Witcher 3, Red Dead Redemption (havent played 2 yet) and Mount & Blade. And ONLY IN M&B I managed to actually PLAY ON HORSEBACK, instead of using it as a mere transport vehicle. Because in other games, the horse is extremely sensitive to any rock, tall grass or whatever, and it simply won't do what you want. JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.1

Yes, RDR2's horses seem "realistic", but at most you get what, 14 horses? Imagine 500x500 cavalry fighting each other in Bannerlord. They clash, everyone wastes almost 2 minutes flying and running around looking for their horses. There goes the cavalry.
In essence, you'd only get a single use out of cavalry, because half the horsemen would fly around and be dehorsed, and most likely killed, unless you hit fleeing troops.

In M&B, horses do what they are told to the letter, it is completely functional, they become part of your own character, they become part of your own being, so much so that you can go battle after battle without ever getting down from the saddle. Because it's fun. Yes, it's not realistic, horses get tired, get clumsy, fall down... but that would most likely be detrimental to the gameplay. You'd be too scared to use your cavalry most of the time, especially since getting cavalry in BL will be much more 'tedious'2 to do.

It would be more realistic and what not, but for the game's purpose, cav works exactly as it should, in my opinion. It's not great, things seldom are, but like Orion said, it is so functional and intuitive that you can spend all of your time on horseback. You don't have to get to the nearest town and tie it down, you don't have to unequip the horse whenever you get near a town, because it'll suck to ride around and have to get down from the horse to talk to people, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree with lolbash here: fun(ction) > realism.

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1 IRL, horses require literally years, if not more than a decade, of training to obey your every command as you want it. Breaking a horse is not enough, you have to accustom it to daily work, daily orders, daily riding, weekly stress training, tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of hours on horseback training it to follow your commands. And that's for a single horse - man relationship, if there is another horse, you have to do it with that other too, and it will most often only fully obey the trainer, not every person that rides it. Because horses take time to trust their riders. Just like people.
2 I mean there will be far more grunt work involved in actually getting the horses for your men, and equipping them, possibly. And if your cavalry loses their horses, welp, there goes the cavalry. If the men get killed, there is no more cavalry.
 
Personally I would love more realistic horse physics and for cavalry to be a very high risk high reward tool such as it was on historical battlefields.

I realize however, that this is likely both very difficult to implement (I don't want to wait even longer for this game) and not what the majority of people would prefer. I am especially Ok with horses that move like tracked vehicles when the graphics and sound are amazing enough to make you forget your horses lack of agility.
 
MountAndMemeButterlord 说:
very high risk high reward tool such as it was on historical battlefields.

Why would the cavalry be "very high risk tool" on the historical battlefields?
 
While realistic horse physics would be resource hungry and difficult to implement, a few changes to the Warband (and Bannerlord, as it seems to be the same) would do wonders:

0: Rider flying off in case of full speed frontal attack. I think it would be fun but I can see the downsides - TW should actually teach his AI to fight from horseback properly - so leave it.

1: Horse bumbing into something with its side (other horse, footman or objects...): only -5-10% speed loss

2: Horse frontally bumping into something small  (slim tree, friendly unit...): push the horse slightly sideways with -15-20% speed loss. It doesn't even needs extra animation, so it is lightweight and easy. Example: https://youtu.be/Olcd9hTlEDg?t=20 (0:20)

3: Horse frontally bumping into something large: Horse stops and rider looses balance in the saddle for few seconds (unable to fight) with a reasonable animation. I would also force the horse to turn left or right if there is room - this seems to be natural for me and would also help the rider to escape the situation.

(Logic: obstacle in front -> push sideways and check end of obstacle in a reasonable distance (0.5m) -> end of obstacle? Y: fine N: -> stop horse, play appropriate animations etc...)

+1: Add extra movements for horse and rider: sidestep for horse (keys: Q, E), lean forward, left, right from the saddle while fighting (maybe +Ctrl or +Shift or whatever while attack or defence). I know this would be demanding, (animations, AI, testing) but it would add a lot of fun and depth to mounted combat.
 
BIGGER Kentucky James XXL 说:
Well compared to the reckless way you can just throw cavalry around in warband, where charges can never "fail" or be repelled, real cavalry charges would be a lot more risky.

Isn't that true for anything in MB? Combat in MB isn't exactly very realistic.
 
hruza 说:
MountAndMemeButterlord 说:
very high risk high reward tool such as it was on historical battlefields.

Why would the cavalry be "very high risk tool" on the historical battlefields?

Cavalry were both incredibly expensive and incredibly time-consuming/hard to train. They were quite often nobility as well, exclusively in the case of many feudal European societies. This already leads to a high risk high reward dynamic but there is more.

Cavalry would be used to engage enemy cavalry, disrupt/break units of infantry, or cut down routing opponents.

Engaging enemy cavalry and cutting down fleeing opponents were only really as risky as combat itself is (unless the enemy cavalry was notably superior), and while both important only chasing routed foes is particularly devastating (often being the source of most casualties in a battle, and ensuring the enemy cannot reform their army).

The disruption and breaking of units of infantry was the most high risk and high reward function that cavalry served on a battlefield. It is also what people are most often interested in when reading about how and why cavalry was used. It is after all, the most cinematic and bad ass function.

Cavalry would charge a unit of infantry, preferably from a flank and/or at a unit that was already wavering, from here it was essentially a game of chicken. The cavalry would count on the terrifying sight, sound, and shaking ground to either create a gap in the unit to push through or dissolve the unit entirely. The infantry would count on their resilience and strength of arms to get the cavalry charge to stall and turn around, if the cavalry did this too close... Horses, especially formed groups of them, can't turn around from a charge super fast they would be open to a devastating counter charge from the infantry.

Very, VERY rarely did charging cavalry actually collide with a braced unit of infantry. The risk was in your expensive highly trained cavalry being slaughtered in a failed charge, the reward was disintegrating entire units of the enemy which often cascaded into a victory.

EDIT: Sorry for that ridiculous response if you were only looking for a sentence or two.

EDIT: This mostly applies to shock cavalry, melee and light cavalry would engage unwavering or braced infantry. Just not colliding at full speed the way movies portray it.
 
MountAndMemeButterlord 说:
Cavalry were both incredibly expensive and incredibly time-consuming/hard to train. They were quite often nobility as well, exclusively in the case of many feudal European societies. This already leads to a high risk high reward dynamic but there is more.

I'm not in the ultra-realism bandwagon, but I've always wanted cavalry to be very expensive and hard to keep in Warband, because it was so OP.
There was barely any point against full cavalry party beside sieges battles.
 
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