Horse Archery / Bows vs Crossbows for Companions

[CuriousTrout]

Hey everyone, in my current file I'm leveling up my companions to be trainers (10) but my main character is picking up most INT skills (to get that 14).

My companions all have 15 STR, 12 AGI, and are progressing to 30 INT (except Klethi, who has 30 AGI to get Looting), but I've run into an odd problem. I have too many skill points. It's worthless for them to pick up INT based skills besides Trainer because I have them, and they all already have maxed out Ironflesh, Power Strike, Riding, Shield, Athletics, and Weapon Master.

Currently they're all suited out as Knights with Morningstars and Shields, with a Siege Crossbow for, well, Sieges. Which brings me to my next question. As I have excess points, would putting 4 points into Horse Archery and 5 points into Power Draw be worth it? Or would they actually be more effective relying strictly on melee when not in sieges? And if so, what might be a decent use of points?

If it changes anything, I roll with exclusively Swadian Knights. I tried a Huscarl / Sharpshooter mix using orders, but even that wasn't as effective.

 

[NeverUseCavalry]

Making them all 30 int is a waste of the resource.  10 trainer on every companion is way overkill.  I have 10 trainer on my two int heroes and on myself.  My combat companions each have 3 trainer.  My entire army stays top tier all the time.  Having every companion get 30 int just for trainer deprives you of a lot of combat power while the additional training is wasted.

I understand the theory that some people have expressed when it comes to party skills and companions.  It goes like this: you get most of your combat power from regular troops, since you can have 100+ troops and only 8 companions.  On the other hand, regular troops can't get party skills.  Therefore, the real use of companions is for party skills.  Yes, entirely true... up to the point that you've attained all useful party skills.  If you're going int yourself, that only takes one to two more int heroes.  The only one that stacks is trainer, but even with that you reach a point where enough is enough.  At the same time, people that subscribe to this theory underestimate just how powerful a companion can get.  A single companion that is leveled purely for combat and geared out properly can eventually be as powerful as several top tier troops while never dying and always improving both in skill and equipment.

To answer your question about horse archer companions, though: yes, they will be worse as horse archers than as melee cavalry.  They will get less kills as they waste time riding around firing arrows which will virtually never hit anything, and even when they do hit something it will do significantly less damage than a melee strike.

 

[CuriousTrout]

It may be overkill, but it seems to be, at least in my experience so far, the most benefit a companion can give. Currently they're all level 22 or higher (high enough to train a Man At Arms into a Knight) and they can get all 50+ recruits  from Recruit > Militia > Footman > Man At Arms each night. If I can get them to make 50+ Men At Arms into 50+ Knights, I think that's the greatest benefit they can provide. They're decked out in Plate Armor/Plate Boots/Gauntlets/Winged Helmets with 5 Power Strike and 5 Ironflesh on Chargers wielding Morningstars and Huscarl Shields, they already dominate in the field. 5 more Points on Power Strike / Ironflesh / STR would seem to provide a much smaller boon to my kingdom than 5 Trainer.

With my Surgery of 14 and my ability to train recruits from Recruits to Knights in a flash, I can take well-defended towns solo by just throwing my troops at them and whittling it down. Against a town like Dhirim I can usually take about 75 Troops of theirs and only lose about 4-8 myself, the rest are just knocked unconscious. Then I retreat, my Wound Treatment of 14 has them healed by the time my Siege Tower is finished, and I keep going. If I could get them to raise Huscarls as easily as I do Knights, that would be even better.

It's not so much a matter of just keeping my army top-tier, I like to keep my castles and towns stocked with backup Knights, Huscarls, and Sharpshooters for both Siege Offense and Siege Defense, and Trainer makes stocking new property much easier. IMO providing a much greater benefit to my kingdom than my already dominant companions becoming slightly more dominant.

That said, I still plan on raising Trainer, so is there really no other skills worth getting? Would the best use be to just have each companion get one INT skill to 10 as backup if I'm wounded?

Sorry if I'm typing out paragraphs, it's fun to talk about this game.

 

[NeverUseCavalry]

You make a pretty compelling case, but from an efficiency standpoint it's just not something I would do.  I personally don't see a need to train from zero to top tier in one day vs two.  You've also pointed out the inefficiency yourself.  You're raising int for only one skill, which is causing a lot of wasted skill points.  A guy with 30 str, 10 power strike, 10 iron flesh, and 10 power draw is quite a bit more powerful than 15/5/5/5.  I'll take that and "only" train my entire army to max in 2 days.

But hey, if your plan is working for you, then more power to you.

 

[Ghost of Razgriz]

If you want my honest opinion, about 5-7 Trainer for you and your companions is enough to get by and can get them fast-tracked to about 3rd tier in three days...if memory serves right (assuming you have enough companions for it and that their level exceeds said units).  Fourth tier may take a couple days depending on their level, number of companions, and how much trainer skill you invested, and fifth+ tier takes a boatload if below lvl 28.

 

[CuriousTrout]

If you want my honest opinion, about 5-7 Trainer for you and your companions is enough to get by and can get them fast-tracked to about 3rd tier in three days...if memory serves right (assuming you have enough companions for it and that their level exceeds said units).  Fourth tier may take a couple days depending on their level, number of companions, and how much trainer skill you invested, and fifth+ tier takes a boatload if below lvl 28.

Right, and I want to be able to quickly and efficiently upgrade to Tier 6 (Huscarls). That's why I consider Trainer easily the best way my companions can help my army. I'm getting to to 4th Tier overnight currently, with 5th tier taking about a week to get the full army up (they're still learning Trainer, I wanted the 15 STR and 12 AGI first).

 

[NeverUseCavalry]

What advantage does it give you to do it in one day vs two? How many times do you need to train an entire army from scratch in one day?

 

[CuriousTrout]

What advantage does it give you to do it in one day vs two? How many times do you need to train an entire army from scratch in one day?

I'm actually a little surprised you're raising Tier 5 and Tier 6 armies in two days with your trainer skill that low, I didn't think it would be enough.

I keep it that high for a few reasons. I don't like the cheese method of stockpiling recruits, I prefer loading up my cities and castles with Huscarls and Sharpshooters and battling my sieges. It's entertaining, more believable (important to me) and nets me and my companions quite a bit of experience and proficiency. With fairly small Garrison's of elite troops (100-200) I can also lure large armies to their death, giving me the advantage when I take the offensive, as opposed to them simply leaving me alone.

At the moment I'm taking about a castle a week, which means an additional 100+ Huscarls and 50+ Sharpshooters need to be made weekly, as well as the 25-30 or so top tier troops I'll lose in the 4-5 offensive sieges it takes to take the castle.

I've already bought all the books and I have all my companions fully geared out. With my enterprises, rents, and tariffs money is no object.

 

[kuwhar]

Hey everyone, in my current file I'm leveling up my companions to be trainers (10) but my main character is picking up most INT skills (to get that 14).

My companions all have 15 STR, 12 AGI, and are progressing to 30 INT (except Klethi, who has 30 AGI to get Looting), but I've run into an odd problem. I have too many skill points. It's worthless for them to pick up INT based skills besides Trainer because I have them, and they all already have maxed out Ironflesh, Power Strike, Riding, Shield, Athletics, and Weapon Master.

Currently they're all suited out as Knights with Morningstars and Shields, with a Siege Crossbow for, well, Sieges. Which brings me to my next question. As I have excess points, would putting 4 points into Horse Archery and 5 points into Power Draw be worth it? Or would they actually be more effective relying strictly on melee when not in sieges? And if so, what might be a decent use of points?

If it changes anything, I roll with exclusively Swadian Knights. I tried a Huscarl / Sharpshooter mix using orders, but even that wasn't as effective.

Horse archery/archery is what I go for.

If they have a couple nice party skills you can give them just a bow and arrows and they'll stay "alive" through most battles since they naturally avoid close combat.

And for seiges I always prefer bowmen because of the rate of fire. It's not a scientific approach but I find bowyers much more effective because when they are prone (on ground level shooting up) more shots seems to be the better option because most shots that connect will be headhsots anyways, so the extra power from crossbows doesn't generally make a difference.

But again for open battles, horse archery on them is awesome because they act like true horse archers so long as you don't give them a melee weapon.

 

[nasurrific]

Party skills receive bonuses from second highest skill and if you were somehow miraculously knocked out, your skills are out as well. If you make companion a leader later, his skills count.

Other than that, I´d say horse archery etc is not worth it. I´d personally divide more points to combat skills but I am afraid that condition of being limited to INT only removes rest of your options.