Horse Archers are........balanced?

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On paper foot arcer is stronger then horse archer in scirmish. He is smaller target, he can use stronger bow, he can be more accurate and shoot faster.

The best thing to have in a skirmish is mobility. Being able to rapidly reposition is paramount, almost everything else -- protection, weapon effectiveness -- is secondary. You see it now on the beta branch because armies finally have more shields; HAs can maneuver to get around the shields while foot archers generally can't. Most people don't make use of the loose formation, so their foot archers aren't even a smaller target. They are one giant target that even the AI can't miss.
 
Personally I don't find horse archers unbalanced except against infantry only armies with limited missile weapons and in that cases they should win so it feels right. I otherwise think they are great to either fight as or against.
 
To really mess up horse archers (as someone who runs a mostly mamluke/faris army) you need to have medium intercepting cavalry. I experience my highest losses when my horse archers are disrupted and get dismounted and picked off. When I face predominantly infantry armies I tend to shred them.

Javelin cavalry can really shred horse archers, especially if supported by foot archers. Sturgian raiders are for example great with their two stacks of javelins.
 
Not really wanting to get embroiled in an argument, but do want to add here that Apocal is selling the straight goods regarding real world history and the impact of Steppe Armies on their agriculturalist neighbours. Some of the counter arguments are pure speculation or just wrong.
To add a bit (of the history; I think this game has the best representation of HA to date, but I'm sure there's more work to do re: other troop types and balance in general...):

It wasn't just the Mongols - Steppe Nomads (and pastoral nomads elsewhere, to a degree) were almost unstoppable until armies started fielding reliable firearms and artillery.
The Chinese and Russians basically closed the Steppe in (IIRC) the 18th century - until then the horse archer ruled.
It's a visible trend toward the supremacy of firearms - the later Steppe origin empires (Timurid and Mughal e.g.) had to incorporate more and more firearm infantry to achieve the same thing. The Native American confederations on the great plains could not manage it, because <guns> (and the effect of European epidemics, but when they fought back - guns).
The Steppe peoples pretty much invented real tactical and strategic mobility - the bronze age empires got their chariots from the Steppe, not vice versa, and later on probably stirrups. The Huns might have been displaced Xiongu, or a closely related culture. Greek 'Centaur' and 'Amazon' myths are probably reacting to the Scythians, etc..
Both Han Chinese and the Byzantine Empire came up with very similar military counter strategies - as alluded above, well led infantry and archers / xbows with mobile cavalry wings - it worked when it worked, but it was invariably cheaper financially and politically to pay tribute / divide and rule or hire 'the other lot' as mercenaries and hope they didn't decide to take over.
Attila, Genghis, Sundry Turks, Tamerlane et al appear to have learnt everything they needed to know about siege craft any time they needed to. Genghis and his successors co-opted / hired Chinese and Persian specialists as a matter of routine (+ the pragmatic strategies mentioned in other posts - they really did flood out cities and use frozen rivers as highways).
They could all fight on foot when they needed to - they often dismounted and 'forted up' in ring formation if things were going poorly - the Mongols did that at Ain Jalut (the Islamic victory mentioned above) - once their horses were blown and the strategic situation precluded resupply and proper mobility.
Many of the big Middle eastern empires started out as steppe peoples at some point, and retained the strong cavalry focus culturally and militarily; Sassanid, Parthian, Etc. At times India. At times Russia. The Chinese Yuan Dynasty. Europe, Japan and the Vietnamese felt the fear more than once. The Mongols probably hit their logistical limit rather than any military nemesis - they couldn't hold anything much beyond the Levant and the edges of western Europe - but they could and did beat the living c**p out of most of the armies they met along the way. They certainly also used terror tactics, but if that were all she wrote, then the IRA would be ruling in Westminster, and ISIS would have an actual Caliphate up and running.

It wasn't all horse archers - the whole nomadic lifestyle lends itself to mobile warfare and effective battlefield communications - if you could live like a steppe nomad, you were going to be some use in a steppe army (or in earlier times 'big raid') - you have to be able to communicate and react in a coordinated way to herd livestock effectively (Westerns and stampeding cattle...) - and as livestock is much more mobile than, say, wheat, you have to be able to mobilise quickly and effectively if someone steals it from you. Then proper oceanic shipping and good guns, and things change.

Personally I think the history is important in relation to Bannerlord - the game does the feel of Medieval warfare better than any other I've played (that isn't the same as saying it's 100% - but it feels right more often than not) - In a world casually informed by Hollywood, I think the developers deserve some kudos for their efforts to create something that feels right for the period they are presenting (yeah, yeah, I know it's a 'fantasy' universe, it's just a fantasy universe based on early medieval Europe, the Med, and the Middle East). As a comparison, HA in the total war series do all right at the tabletop wargame level, but the micro is a complete pain, and there is no sense of the sheer fluidity of HA in combat.

Ignoring exploits and the AI deficit in some other units, you can counter them with historical tactics in game if you want to - that's 'historical' not 'Hollywood' (not knocking Hollywood, just not usually a good source for historical info). I usually stick shield infantry in wall or ring protecting archers in loose and hands on managing cavalry - the shields in a defensive formation cut down casualties and act as an speed bump, the archers get kills, and the cavalry if managed actively distracts them from the archers and doesn't get to tangled up in melee. It worked, and in the game it works, and the only real micro is periodically recalling your cavalry before charging them in again. I like to fight hands on, so I often just get them to follow me.

A final point on HA aim - along with the comments above re: targeting armies rather than individuals (which is correct - a bow isn't a 'sniper' weapon until modern compounds) it is worth noting that HA is not a long range sport - Ideally you get in close and shoot at point blank range whilst not getting quite into reach of the other side's weapons - that's why only some people's develop the skill - it's a lifestyle thing - you got to be able to ride like as nomad as well as shoot like one. Give a Russian Peasant a reliable gun and a few spare rounds and, game over.
 
Great post, I agree to pretty much everything. Dealing with horse archers is as challenging as it should be, but it is doable.

My approach is to have some horse archers and lancers in my army. When the enemy horse archers show up, I start chasing them and command all my cavalry to follow me. What you need to do is to stay behind them and to their right. They cannot shoot right, so in order to shoot at you they wheel left. When they do so, and if their speed is reduced to an extent that you can catch up with them as is often the case, you command your lancers to charge. As they meet the lancers they will switch to melee and lose all advantage.
 
AI horse archers are only OP against AI. Players can easily beat them by waiting for them to be in range of archers and charging cav at them, getting them paused in the line of fire.
Player HA are actually more powerful when used just like normal archers, more damage and accuracy when stationary , but can quickly moved if things start to go bad. This is of course because of unfinished/bad AI as others have said and wouldn't work so well against a human.

As others have said it's more the lack of control over units that makes HA seem frustrating at times. I would really like to choose to focus types of troops on other types of troops or an area and ignore others. This is something I always wanted in warband and I really really hope it can be done. There are so many durpy situations that would be over so smoothly if archers would just shoot where you want and Cav would just attack who you want and come back to you. You can try to position archers and hold Cavs hand to bring them to proper enemies..... but I feel these features shouldn't be too much to ask for in a 2020+ game.
 
Not really wanting to get embroiled in an argument, but do want to add here that Apocal is selling the straight goods regarding real world history and the impact of Steppe Armies on their agriculturalist neighbours. Some of the counter arguments are pure speculation or just wrong.
To add a bit (of the history; I think this game has the best representation of HA to date, but I'm sure there's more work to do re: other troop types and balance in general...):

It wasn't just the Mongols - Steppe Nomads (and pastoral nomads elsewhere, to a degree) were almost unstoppable until armies started fielding reliable firearms and artillery.
The Chinese and Russians basically closed the Steppe in (IIRC) the 18th century - until then the horse archer ruled.
It's a visible trend toward the supremacy of firearms - the later Steppe origin empires (Timurid and Mughal e.g.) had to incorporate more and more firearm infantry to achieve the same thing. The Native American confederations on the great plains could not manage it, because <guns> (and the effect of European epidemics, but when they fought back - guns).
The Steppe peoples pretty much invented real tactical and strategic mobility - the bronze age empires got their chariots from the Steppe, not vice versa, and later on probably stirrups. The Huns might have been displaced Xiongu, or a closely related culture. Greek 'Centaur' and 'Amazon' myths are probably reacting to the Scythians, etc..
Both Han Chinese and the Byzantine Empire came up with very similar military counter strategies - as alluded above, well led infantry and archers / xbows with mobile cavalry wings - it worked when it worked, but it was invariably cheaper financially and politically to pay tribute / divide and rule or hire 'the other lot' as mercenaries and hope they didn't decide to take over.
Attila, Genghis, Sundry Turks, Tamerlane et al appear to have learnt everything they needed to know about siege craft any time they needed to. Genghis and his successors co-opted / hired Chinese and Persian specialists as a matter of routine (+ the pragmatic strategies mentioned in other posts - they really did flood out cities and use frozen rivers as highways).
They could all fight on foot when they needed to - they often dismounted and 'forted up' in ring formation if things were going poorly - the Mongols did that at Ain Jalut (the Islamic victory mentioned above) - once their horses were blown and the strategic situation precluded resupply and proper mobility.
Many of the big Middle eastern empires started out as steppe peoples at some point, and retained the strong cavalry focus culturally and militarily; Sassanid, Parthian, Etc. At times India. At times Russia. The Chinese Yuan Dynasty. Europe, Japan and the Vietnamese felt the fear more than once. The Mongols probably hit their logistical limit rather than any military nemesis - they couldn't hold anything much beyond the Levant and the edges of western Europe - but they could and did beat the living c**p out of most of the armies they met along the way. They certainly also used terror tactics, but if that were all she wrote, then the IRA would be ruling in Westminster, and ISIS would have an actual Caliphate up and running.

It wasn't all horse archers - the whole nomadic lifestyle lends itself to mobile warfare and effective battlefield communications - if you could live like a steppe nomad, you were going to be some use in a steppe army (or in earlier times 'big raid') - you have to be able to communicate and react in a coordinated way to herd livestock effectively (Westerns and stampeding cattle...) - and as livestock is much more mobile than, say, wheat, you have to be able to mobilise quickly and effectively if someone steals it from you. Then proper oceanic shipping and good guns, and things change.

Personally I think the history is important in relation to Bannerlord - the game does the feel of Medieval warfare better than any other I've played (that isn't the same as saying it's 100% - but it feels right more often than not) - In a world casually informed by Hollywood, I think the developers deserve some kudos for their efforts to create something that feels right for the period they are presenting (yeah, yeah, I know it's a 'fantasy' universe, it's just a fantasy universe based on early medieval Europe, the Med, and the Middle East). As a comparison, HA in the total war series do all right at the tabletop wargame level, but the micro is a complete pain, and there is no sense of the sheer fluidity of HA in combat.

Ignoring exploits and the AI deficit in some other units, you can counter them with historical tactics in game if you want to - that's 'historical' not 'Hollywood' (not knocking Hollywood, just not usually a good source for historical info). I usually stick shield infantry in wall or ring protecting archers in loose and hands on managing cavalry - the shields in a defensive formation cut down casualties and act as an speed bump, the archers get kills, and the cavalry if managed actively distracts them from the archers and doesn't get to tangled up in melee. It worked, and in the game it works, and the only real micro is periodically recalling your cavalry before charging them in again. I like to fight hands on, so I often just get them to follow me.

A final point on HA aim - along with the comments above re: targeting armies rather than individuals (which is correct - a bow isn't a 'sniper' weapon until modern compounds) it is worth noting that HA is not a long range sport - Ideally you get in close and shoot at point blank range whilst not getting quite into reach of the other side's weapons - that's why only some people's develop the skill - it's a lifestyle thing - you got to be able to ride like as nomad as well as shoot like one. Give a Russian Peasant a reliable gun and a few spare rounds and, game over.

Your historical 'facts' are anything but. They're probably closer to nonsense.

The idea that steppe peoples were unstoppable and horse archers ruled the battlefield until gunpowder and artillery is nonsense. The idea that Russia and China 'closed the steppe' until the 18th century is complete bollocks. For one thing, the Qing dynasty which ruled during the advent of gunpowder warfare were Manchu steppe tribesmen originally and maintained their banner system. They didn't 'close the steppe'. If anything they opened it.

The Muscovites also defeated the remnants of the Mongols in the late 15th century and overthrew their then overlord. Gunpowder weapons existed as this time (1480 or so) but they were by no means advanced or commonplace. Artillery of the time was unreliable and generally only ever used during sieges. Muscovy eventually became, well, Russia, and that included former steppe lands ruled by successors of Genghis Khan -- all the way through Siberia, in fact.

I can give more examples but these are off the top of my head.
 
I am intrigued by the potential for javelin cavalry as a counter to horse archers now. I've always known Faris to be crazy good, but never did it occur to me to use the likes of Horse Raiders or Mounted Skirmishers. I think I'll test them out.
 
AI horse archers are only OP against AI. Players can easily beat them by waiting for them to be in range of archers and charging cav at them, getting them paused in the line of fire.
Player HA are actually more powerful when used just like normal archers, more damage and accuracy when stationary , but can quickly moved if things start to go bad. This is of course because of unfinished/bad AI as others have said and wouldn't work so well against a human.

Yep, I've noticed that AI handles the HA alright when they have a good number of cavalry to counter charge. The problem is that the Khuzaite's most common enemy is the Empire and they don't have any native cav unit aside from noble troops and bucciarelli which both become very rare as troops get thrown into the meatgrinder. There are multiple other issues as well like the recruit heavy armies being fodder for archers in general and troops not using shields properly against missiles. Hopefully as other issues get solved one by one we can find out if anything else sticks out.

As others have said it's more the lack of control over units that makes HA seem frustrating at times. I would really like to choose to focus types of troops on other types of troops or an area and ignore others. This is something I always wanted in warband and I really really hope it can be done. There are so many durpy situations that would be over so smoothly if archers would just shoot where you want and Cav would just attack who you want and come back to you. You can try to position archers and hold Cavs hand to bring them to proper enemies..... but I feel these features shouldn't be too much to ask for in a 2020+ game.

Definitely. If only there was some kind of symbol to faciliate this mechanic. Some kind of large visible object that tells people what army and group your soldiers belong to that can be recognised by both sides to better organise battle. I don't maybe a... Banner...lord?
 
A better shield wall mechanics would fix this issue...
They do run out of arrows.
I haven't tried the existing shieldwall formation extensively because I got too used to mounted party movement speed and suffer having to chase enemies for longer, however any Khuzait player knows that (horse) archers do, yes, run out of arrows. Once that happens they're basically ****ed. I did try a shielded circle formation against steppe bandits once and it did work much better than I expected. On the other hand, shieldwall formations don't seem to make much difference when I'm fighting against one with horse archers. The enemies do take longer to go down, but not actually long enough for my archers to run out of arrows, probably because I'm usually outnumbering them. Thinking about it now, that might be because the AI never uses the shieldwall formation when in greater numbers (which means ****, because I can take on an army of 600 with 150-200 horse archers without losses depending on dificulty settings) when it actually should.
 
I haven't tried the existing shieldwall formation extensively because I got too used to mounted party movement speed and suffer having to chase enemies for longer, however any Khuzait player knows that (horse) archers do, yes, run out of arrows. Once that happens they're basically ****ed. I did try a shielded circle formation against steppe bandits once and it did work much better than I expected. On the other hand, shieldwall formations don't seem to make much difference when I'm fighting against one with horse archers. The enemies do take longer to go down, but not actually long enough for my archers to run out of arrows, probably because I'm usually outnumbering them. Thinking about it now, that might be because the AI never uses the shieldwall formation when in greater numbers (which means ****, because I can take on an army of 600 with 150-200 horse archers without losses depending on dificulty settings) when it actually should.

The AI uses shieldwall/shielded circle formations but only until they lose a few men. Then they break apart in a pell-mell charge. It has been that way since Warband. The AI is not incapable of picking out good terrain to hold out on. It just refuses to stay there once they start taking casualties for any reason.
 
dont bother praying for a fix on this. AI will never be able to fight a horse archer army spam. their not that smart. as for when u fight them just have ur own cavalry army to fight them. the AI only ever brings mass horse archers when theres multiple rich lords together. Other than that theres never going to be more than like 15 ive seen horse archers in any khuzait army.
 
After playing around with the armour does something mod (while keeping the projectiles normal), I noticed a massive difference. Horse archers still defeat the same number of infantry, but that's not exactly fair since 1 rider=/= 1 infantry man. The difference is that horse archers actually have to go into melee eventually, where their relative fragility is noticeable. They had actual casualties.

And this was with against an infantry army that kept trying to chase us.

Making armour stronger really is the way to go.
 
"you all saw how he fought in the battle... how the enemies 100 arrows ricochets of his armor" Bilge inscriptions on his brother Kul Tegins monument.

Did the Gök Turks never have any decent armor, despite having 4 great battles a year, one for every season of the year. How can anyone survive a single battle if they, like Kul Tegin always fought in the front lines and killed several enemies with his LANCE. That suggest he was pretty close to the enemies, why didn't they just shoot him dead?

Fix bow+arrows and javelins already and take a look at why Lords and Kings armor seems so useless. Horse archers are fine, its their absurd damage on everything that ruins the day.
 
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