Horse Aficionados Please Look

[MarkQuinn]

I've been going back and forth playing Oblivion and M&B lately.  One thing that really strikes you when you play both these games are the relative sizes of the horses compared to the riders.  In Oblivion the horses seem very large, while in M&B they seem more like ponies or steppe horses (indeed we have steppe horses in M&B, but it seems all of them are that scale).

Looking at the side-by-side comparison below, do you horse folks think one or the other is more realistic, or both?  Can anyone comment about these?  I realize horses come in all sizes, but these are horses breeded for battle, remember.  It seems to me that the one on the left is something a real knight might ride, while Ghengis Khan would've been more comfortable on the right steed.  The only problem is we actually often do play knightly types in M&B.  So is this unrealistic?

 

[Kraven]

Mhm i gotta admit as a dude who used to ride myself the Oblivion size seem more like it would be with a warhorse.

 

[Lyx]

Something to take into account as well: larger = more probable to be hit. So, this isn't just aesthetics.

 

[Sulibres]

For a warhorse, the one on the left seems more apt due to the larger and stocky frame of the creature; it actually feels it could run you over and hurt you. If I'm not wrong, there was a mod which had horses that were of different sizes and frame to fit the characteristic and function of the horse.

 

[Novanta]

The Oblivion one seems better:

 

[Nordmann]

Indeed, the left horse is much more suitable as a warhorse, the right would simply be far too small to carry a rider in full armour. Perhaps the horses need some rescaling, in accordance with their type and use.

 

[MarkQuinn]

So once 1.0 is behind us and people start modding regularly again, maybe someone can tackle this issue and make certain horses a bit larger (maybe leave the steppe horses alone)?  I would myself but haven't the foggiest how to work with models.

P.S. - Sorry Nordmann I was typing as you were posting but basically said what you said.

 

[King of Peasantry]

Despite what most have come to expect, the majority of medieval horses were actually on the smaller side compared to the modern range. There hasn't been a set of barding recovered that would properly fit a horse much larger than 15 hands high last I recall. Even with the equipment of the day it wouldn't have been enough to overburden a medium size horse and something heavier that could support more weight would have been redundant, so the types used during the period were bred for strength and endurance rather than size.

 

[Orion]

Size, strength, and endurance seem to go hand in hand quite often, KoP.

Mark, one mod that I know of created larger horse models some time ago. Band of Warriors, I think it was. Whether or not they still use the larger models, I can't say.

 

[MarkQuinn]

Orion, it shouldn't be too much of a problem then importing those models.  Provided that earlier version of BOW is still floating around somewhere.  After 1.0 I guess we can tackle all these issues.

My girlfriend is somewhat of a horse expert, but not a mounted combat or medieval expert, so I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility.  She says, as per King of Peasantry's comment, that it may indeed have been easier to swing a sword from a shorter, stockier mount --- kind of a low center of gravity thing.

P.S. - Kudos to anyone who can tell me where my rider is located in Oblivion.  You'll win the "You're a Bigger Oblivion Geek Than Me Award."  (Hint: he's at one of the stables)

 

[TheMageLord]

Big horses are nice and all, but imagine trying to ride down infantry on a huge horse like that. Unless you had one hella-long weapon, all they'd have to do is duck and completely avoid your blows. The only way you could hurt them would be to actually have the horse trample them, since your weapon couldn't reach them. You'd have to invent the 8 foot pole-sword to hold it down far enough to swing at em, as even the longer cavalry swords couldn't reach from that far up.

Note: I'm no expert or anything, I'm just looking at the picture and imagining a realistically sized sword trying to swing down at a guy. That horse's legs are almost as tall as the guy on it.

 

[Sulibres]

After the comparison shot, I feel like I look like this whenever I ride into battle now.

 

[shashaveli]

Well, you've picked a coursier for comparison which as the name says is NOT a designated war horse. Still most mounts of the day were not too big, huge and well trained and armored destriers would be a rarity.

 

[MarkQuinn]

After the comparison shot, I feel like I look like this whenever I ride into battle now.

Yes but don't worry Sulibres, your character's legs aren't nearly so skinny.

 

[schmendict]

Despite what most have come to expect, the majority of medieval horses were actually on the smaller side compared to the modern range. There hasn't been a set of barding recovered that would properly fit a horse much larger than 15 hands high last I recall. Even with the equipment of the day it wouldn't have been enough to overburden a medium size horse and something heavier that could support more weight would have been redundant, so the types used during the period were bred for strength and endurance rather than size.

From what I know, which isn't much, this man is correct. Warhorses were short to medium height, but very heavy and subsequently very strong. An example of this is the Frisian horse breed, a descendant of an older warhorse breed. Andalucians and lusitanos were also used in this manner.

Orion, it shouldn't be too much of a problem then importing those models.  Provided that earlier version of BOW is still floating around somewhere.  After 1.0 I guess we can tackle all these issues.

My girlfriend is somewhat of a horse expert, but not a mounted combat or medieval expert, so I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility.  She says, as per King of Peasantry's comment, that it may indeed have been easier to swing a sword from a shorter, stockier mount --- kind of a low center of gravity thing.

P.S. - Kudos to anyone who can tell me where my rider is located in Oblivion.  You'll win the "You're a Bigger Oblivion Geek Than Me Award."  (Hint: he's at one of the stables)

Is he at Leyawiin Cheydinhal? Actually, he might not be. I always associate fog with that nasty swampy place.

 

[MarkQuinn]

Well, you've picked a coursier for comparison which as the name says is NOT a designated war horse.

@schmendict: A little farther north: Cheydinhal.

 

[schmendict]

I knew it!

 

[King of Peasantry]

On the contrary, the Courser was the preferred mount for hard battle by knights and men at arms because while not having the same strength and breeding for the purposes of war as the Destier, they were much less expensive to keep. Matter of fact, the Charger is not even so much a type of horse as it is a category to refer to the most commonly used horses for war, which included the Destrier, Courser and Rouncey.

Ours is just a pretty wimpy Courser, I imagine. Beautiful plumage though.

 

[Shogun 144]

King of Peasantry has it!

Contratry to modern expectations, the medieval warhorse was actually smaller then most modern horse breeds. Modern studies of medieval barding show that the typical warhorse was no larger then 16 hands, 15 hands is usually the given size by most historians. Some estimates say up 18 hands, but I think that is being generous. Truth of the matter was that the horse did not need to be huge in order to carry a knight in full armour, just strong and skilled.

The myth of huge warhorses is tied to the myth of knights wearing heavy armor. In fact the heaviest armor known to modern historians, classic tournament armor, did not weigh over 90 lbs at most. Practical armor that was actually worn on the field of battle did not weigh over 70 lbs at most, 40 at least. Barding itself was rarely seen outside of a tournament, and did not weigh more then 70 lbs either. Practical protection for the horse was relatively light weight, usually boiled leather or caparisons. Given the somewhat underestimated strength of horses, a good sized steed of healthy weight, like most medieval warhorses would have been, could easily handle the full panoply.

Of course now we are just speaking here of medieval Europe, Asia was a different matter and requires a separate post entirely. I can go in to that too if someone asks.

God Bless,
Shogun 144

 

[MarkQuinn]

Shogun, thanks for that information.  I feel better about the realism of M&B's horses now.  After all that you said, then, and looking at the picture I posted, would say the M&B horse is pretty realistic in scale?