Because it's a great chance for you to actually use your brain and try to understand a damn text once in a while, not just google something and copy/paste it as a replymatmohair1 说:
Horns on helmets
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SacredStoneHead 说:Because it's a great chance for you to actually use your brain and try to understand a damn text once in a while, not just google something and copy/paste it as a replymatmohair1 说:
so your just angry that I provided sources & evidence when I'm asked to ?!
matmohair1 说:
Actually I'm ponting out why your reference doesn't prove anything, using nothing more than your own reference.
Go on, read it and post some coherent reply, not random images and things like "
good morning - l0l!".
so your just playing words 
dont wast your time with me
if your not going to post something logical or important,
then leave & start a new thread somewhere else
dont wast your time with me if your not going to post something logical or important,
then leave & start a new thread somewhere else
matmohair1 说:so your just playing words
if your not going to post something logical or important,
then leave & start a new thread somewhere else
Ok dude, I'll stop this "no U" thing, it's getting ridiculous.
And you're being reported.
xenoargh 说:
I highlighted your own source.matmohair1 说:
If you can't understand it, because most probably you're trolling, I'll explain it with my words (the source is your own text, again, understand?):
In the whole text there's no proof at all that germanic tribes used horned helmets, only that the Cornuti used them (any doubt, read it again, and see what I've highlighted in my reply).
The author says the Cornuti were germanic. Ok.
But Cornuti were Roman Auxiliaries, just as the Brachiati, Petulantes, and Celtae (whom just the Petulantes were germanic), and wore the same symbols and were probably raised together with the non-germanic troops.
What means that the horned helmet could be something to distinguish them as troops, not a Germanic culture equipment by itself.
I pointed out an example of the Varangian guard, that served the Byzantine Empire centuries after, wore Byzantine equipment, and that doesn't mean that people in Scandinavia (where they're from) wore that too. Putting it plainly: Cornuti = Roman-Germanic troops; Horned helmet = Probably a Roman troop outfit, not a cultural one - at least that's what the text has to offer.
Now, to the second comment (the source is still yours):
Your esteemed author said that theres ALMOST NO EVIDENCE of buck warriors among the free germanic tribes, and what makes him think there were some link is a SCABBARD. Scabbards = something different from a helmet, and a very weak thing to base an argument that Germanic tribes wore horned helmets upon.
Then he proceeds saying that Saxo Grammaticus says of a Danish king named Gram, that is said to put on goatskins to intimidate others, and the daughter of the Swedish king Sigtruk, said something about old warriors having 'hidden themselves under the hides of beasts.' HIDES ARE NOT ****ING HELMETS. Is it clear?
Then all the Woden thing you can read it again, it's pretty well explained. Have fun.
cherry piking is never an argument
seriously is it the end of the world if history
turned out be more interesting than you imagined
the author was citing notable examples that proved his main statement
he never said that horned helmets belonged to some people & no one else
there is no use trying to act smart for the sake of self gratification
seriously is it the end of the world if history
turned out be more interesting than you imagined
the author was citing notable examples that proved his main statement
he never said that horned helmets belonged to some people & no one else
there is no use trying to act smart for the sake of self gratification
matmohair1 说:
Sources are just valid if you can actually interpret them correctly.
The author speculates that the buck warriors could be something more widespread, but doesn't show any proof of that, besides saying that Danish warriors wore goat hides, not horned helmets.
Again, I'm not against any idea of people using things on the helmet, neither I'm saying people don't used it, I'm not even an specialist nor historian.
What I'm pointing out is that you are asserting something and showing very weak sources to prove that. As a participant of the forum, I think we've to discuss things, I don't agree with your point and I pointed out why.
Show convincing argumentation and something more ellaborate than undiscussed articles and images and I'll gladly discuss and research things with you.
But instead, if you keep showing only images and actually don't analyze what you're posting, dismissing what I wrote with "there is no use trying to act smart for the sake of self gratification ", "
" or "good morning - l0l!", I'll keep saying that. Or it's better to simply ignore this thread and let it go, it won't matter much to you anyway.
basic evidence of the availability of a historical object is proven by
- historical artwork
- physical archeological items
- literary works by the the people being studied
or those who interacted with them
example :-
no physical horned helmet from the Mycenaean period have been discovered yet
the artwork of the period collected from clay & pottery finds
proves their existence as well as many other different forms
- historical artwork
- physical archeological items
- literary works by the the people being studied
or those who interacted with them
example :-
no physical horned helmet from the Mycenaean period have been discovered yet
the artwork of the period collected from clay & pottery finds
proves their existence as well as many other different forms
matmohair1 说:
And then you show:
1-Viksø helmet:
Scandinavian bronze age, use unknown, probably ritualistic - doesn't prove anything;
2-Battle of Bråvalla depicted on Oseberg tapestry - 9th century:
Shows two figures wearing horned things, both could be the representation of gods (such Woden, who's commonly depicted with horns/twin dragon headgear). Battle of Bråvalla is also is aknowledged for being highly exaggerated or even fictional.
3-Ritualistic figures wearing horned helmets:
Is there something to say other than ritualistic?
4-Cornuti:
Warriors in service of the Romans, were aknowledged for using horned helmets. They also fall in the "buck warrior" cathegory.
Buck warriors could have been present in free Germanic tribes, but as the author notes, they are acknowledged to wear goat pelts, not goat helms.
5-Ten of thousands non-germanic related images, and lots of them are modern depictions:
It's not actually useful in proving anything related to Germanic peoples.
Then I ask to you: what use have a source that doesn't prove what you're pointing out?
You can put loads of images and copied articles, but you can't have a point without interpreting them and actually referencing them in the argumentation.
Simply put, say I'm wrong, but say why, and not using just adjectives and saying "you're whining", then we'll have a mature and scientific discussion.
Or I'm I wrong?
that out-dated old argument has already been debunked !if you still think they are only ritualistic then try explaining what that ritual is exactly ?!
even when used during ritual dances or ceremonial religious activities
they can also be used on the battle field
matmohair1 说:
if you still think they are only ritualistic then try explaining what that ritual is exactly ?!
Ask to the people that wrote 'ritualistic' below them (these are images you posted here):
P.S.: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=5017&pictureid=66166 is a 1 x 1 .gif, I think you attached the wrong url.
that's the point being used in ceremonial activities
highlights the importance of the object to the people who made them
& that's why they are worn on battle field
as simple as that
matmohair1 说:
being used in ceremonial activities
highlights the importance of the object to the people who made them
& that's why they are worn on battle field
as simple as that
Source:
1, M. Essays on how to guess history...guessing. TaleWorlds Forum, Hystorical Discussion, 3rd ed., 2012, 50 p.
I'm off gentlemen, this gets very tiring.
Moss 说:
I have no intention of spamming
just discussing the matter in a logical way
the only reason I considered the some participants as trolls
is not because they disagreed with me (its every one's right to do so)
but because of the constant use of insults & personal threats
you should have noticed that by now
sorry for any misunderstanding that may have occurred
JHaukewood
Squire
matmohair1 说:
being used in ceremonial activities
highlights the importance of the object to the people who made them
& that's why they are worn on battle field
as simple as that
Actually, this proves absolutely nothing. Matmohair, you've posted some very interesting stuff that has caused me to re-examine this issue, but Xenoargh is right in that you use these pictures to back up some conclusions that are, at best, far removed from the context of what you're showing and, at worst, entirely wishful thinking. History is not what we want to believe about the past; it is what we can prove explicitly about the past given what evidence we have. While visual evidence is adequate in the absence of archeological finds, it is useful only in the context of the culture/period/situation which created it. The rest is just conjecture. Interesting conjecture, true--but not the slightest bit provable, and certainly not worth this increasingly tiresome mud-match.
To move a bit away from only one source, I actually spent some time reading about the matter.
Some things I found below.
***
1) About germanic people and horned helmets:
Tacitus observed in AD 98 that Germans 'scarcely one or two have metal helmets or leather headgear'.
Diodorus Siculus noted that Gauls wore a fair amount of ornaments, as stated: "They wear bronze helmets with high extensions, which give them an appearance of great size. On many helmets, one sees horns, attached in the expected places; on others, frontal images of birds or four-footed beasts".
Plutarch noted that the proto-Danish Cimbri were also reported to wear similar helmets.
Then, many authors began blending Germanic and Celtic, as explicited in a phrase attributed to Beatus Rhenanus: "Who will deny that those ancient Celts were similar to the Germans and in fact were Germans?"
So, we've a lot of inaccuracies that comes from the XVI century onwards from people mixing facts about these two cultures.
***
2) On ritualistic practices, Berserkergang and pelt wearing warriors:
"Buck warriors" and dancing half-naked warriors wearing animal pelts could be very probably linked to the berserker culture or berserker-like warriors, present in Germanic cultures, such as the Harii tribe, as cited by Tacitus in his work Germania.
Berserker were said to be warriors of Óðinn (Woden), which is speculated to be represented by the spear wielding guy with the 'horned' headress in depictions such as of the Suton Hoo helmet.
This can explain the bull-like figures on the depictions. It could either be Woden or any berserker clad in a bull's pelt (if you look closely, all of them have protrusions below the 'horns' that resemble ears; if they were actual helmets I don't think ears would be represented too).
***
3) About why the Viksø helmet was probably used in rituals:
I'll reproduce the text found in this site:
"(...)Viksø helmets could not have been much use in war and fighting, due to their impractical size and shape.
(...)We can get an idea of how the helmets were used by looking at figures and depictions of helmet-clad men. Two small male figures of bronze were found in the 18th century at Grevensvænge, near Næstved. The men wear helmets with curved horns like those from Viksø. Only one of the figures is preserved today, but old drawings of the find show that the two men originally knelt down besides each other and each had a large ornamental axe in one hand.
The same motif, of kneeling men wearing helmets and carrying axes, is depicted on a razor from Vestrup in south Zealand. The men are sitting in a boat.
Ships, helmets and ornamental axes were all used in connection with religious activities in the later Bronze Age.
The combination of men with helmets and axes is also found on Swedish rock carvings. The warriors on the rock carvings from Sotetorp at Tanum in the Bohuslän area are helmet clad and carry axes. They also have swords at the hip and hold a round object in the other hand – perhaps a sun image? A third person is jumping acrobatically over the boat.
Ritual acts or dances were apparently carried out in honour of the sun, which was the central element of Bronze Age religion."
"The horned helmets from Viksø are more than just helmets. To the people of the Bronze Age they were rich in religious meaning and probably related to myths about holy animals and divine powers. They functioned both as helmets and masks, as they were equipped with eyes and a hooked beak.
The picture of the Sun Ship on the helmets from Viksø refers to a central myth in Bronze Age religion. This is the myth of the sun’s eternal journey round and round, with the help of the Sun Ship. The other important helper on this journey is the sun horse, which pulls the sun across the sky. The horse, which is the noblest and holiest of all animals, is represented on the helmets in the form of a mane. The ox, represented by the horns, can symbolise strength and wealth. In many religions the ox is also a heavenly symbol.
The bird of prey, which constitutes the masks on the helmets, may also be connected to the myth about the sun’s eternal journey. If it is an owl, this probably relates to night-time. Finally the added feathers from the crane, which can also be seen in Bronze Age rock carvings from Sweden, may be connected to the changing of the seasons. The crane is the largest and most beautiful of the migratory birds.
The whole symbolic world, which is represented on the Viksø helmets, emphasises their function as holy objects used in religious rituals."
Font
***
Hope this clarifies some things.
Some things I found below.
***
1) About germanic people and horned helmets:
Tacitus observed in AD 98 that Germans 'scarcely one or two have metal helmets or leather headgear'.
Diodorus Siculus noted that Gauls wore a fair amount of ornaments, as stated: "They wear bronze helmets with high extensions, which give them an appearance of great size. On many helmets, one sees horns, attached in the expected places; on others, frontal images of birds or four-footed beasts".
Plutarch noted that the proto-Danish Cimbri were also reported to wear similar helmets.
Then, many authors began blending Germanic and Celtic, as explicited in a phrase attributed to Beatus Rhenanus: "Who will deny that those ancient Celts were similar to the Germans and in fact were Germans?"
So, we've a lot of inaccuracies that comes from the XVI century onwards from people mixing facts about these two cultures.
"Tacitus had opened the discussion in AD 98 by observing of the Germans that 'Vix uni
alterive cassis aut galea' [english:] 'scarcely one or two have metal helmets or leather headgear' (ch. 6).
The first printing of the rediscovered Germania included excerpts from Diodorus Siculus describing the
headgear of the Gauls as follows: 'They wear bronze helmets with high extensions, which give
them an appearance of great size. On many helmets, one sees horns, attached in the expected places;
on others, frontal images of birds or four-footed beasts' (5.30.2).
Plutarch would place similar helmets on the proto-Danish Cimbri (Marius 25), but this only confirmed
what the humanists already knew. For Heinrich Bebel (1472-151 had established by 1500 that
when ancient writers mentioned Gauls or Celts, they meant Germans as well.
Beatus Rhenanus, editor of the Germania, enthusiastically agreed: 'Who will deny that those ancient
Celts were similar to the Germans and in fact were Germans?'. In 1616, citing the authority of Tacitus,
Diodorus,and Plutarch, the historian and geographer Philip Cliiver (1580-1622) gave horned
headdresses and helmets to the early Germans in his illustrated Germania antiqua (Leiden, pp. 360, 364, 400).
Ole Worm (1588-1654) was still pondering horned helmets in 1643, in a dissertation inspired by
the discovery a few years earlier of the longer Gallehus horn (Danicorum monumentorum libri sex
[Co-penhagen, 1643], pp. 344-439). A happy blending of all the northern barbarians and their headgear has
continued without a break down to our own century."
FRANK, R. The Invention of the Viking Horned Helmet, page 203-204. Link.
alterive cassis aut galea' [english:] 'scarcely one or two have metal helmets or leather headgear' (ch. 6).
The first printing of the rediscovered Germania included excerpts from Diodorus Siculus describing the
headgear of the Gauls as follows: 'They wear bronze helmets with high extensions, which give
them an appearance of great size. On many helmets, one sees horns, attached in the expected places;
on others, frontal images of birds or four-footed beasts' (5.30.2).
Plutarch would place similar helmets on the proto-Danish Cimbri (Marius 25), but this only confirmed
what the humanists already knew. For Heinrich Bebel (1472-151
had established by 1500 that when ancient writers mentioned Gauls or Celts, they meant Germans as well.
Beatus Rhenanus, editor of the Germania, enthusiastically agreed: 'Who will deny that those ancient
Celts were similar to the Germans and in fact were Germans?'. In 1616, citing the authority of Tacitus,
Diodorus,and Plutarch, the historian and geographer Philip Cliiver (1580-1622) gave horned
headdresses and helmets to the early Germans in his illustrated Germania antiqua (Leiden, pp. 360, 364, 400).
Ole Worm (1588-1654) was still pondering horned helmets in 1643, in a dissertation inspired by
the discovery a few years earlier of the longer Gallehus horn (Danicorum monumentorum libri sex
[Co-penhagen, 1643], pp. 344-439). A happy blending of all the northern barbarians and their headgear has
continued without a break down to our own century."
FRANK, R. The Invention of the Viking Horned Helmet, page 203-204. Link.
***
2) On ritualistic practices, Berserkergang and pelt wearing warriors:
"Buck warriors" and dancing half-naked warriors wearing animal pelts could be very probably linked to the berserker culture or berserker-like warriors, present in Germanic cultures, such as the Harii tribe, as cited by Tacitus in his work Germania.
Berserker were said to be warriors of Óðinn (Woden), which is speculated to be represented by the spear wielding guy with the 'horned' headress in depictions such as of the Suton Hoo helmet.
This can explain the bull-like figures on the depictions. It could either be Woden or any berserker clad in a bull's pelt (if you look closely, all of them have protrusions below the 'horns' that resemble ears; if they were actual helmets I don't think ears would be represented too).
"Other ritual practices attributed to berserks may represent the initiation of the young warrior
into a band of berserkers. Such bands are mentioned in the sagas, oftentimes numbering
twelve warriors. Bronze helmet plates from locations in Sweden and designs upon the Sutton Hoo
pyrse lid seem to show examples of these initiatory encounters, where a human figure is seen
grappling with one, or often two, bear-like animals."
(Margaret A. Arent. "The Heroic Pattern: Old German Helmets, Beowulf, and Grettis Saga." in Old Norse Literature and Mythology. ed. Edgar C. Polome. Austin, Univ. of Texas Press. 1969. pp. 133-139)
"The physical appearance of the berserk was one calculated to present an image of terror.
Dumezil draws parallels between the berserk and the tribe of Harii mentioned in Tacitus's
Germania who used not only "natural ferocity" but also dyed their bodies to cause panic
and terror in their enemies, just as the berserk combined his fearsome reputation with
animal skin dress to suggest the terrifying metamorphosis of the shape changer.
(Dumezil, Destiny of the Warrior, p. 141)
Link
into a band of berserkers. Such bands are mentioned in the sagas, oftentimes numbering
twelve warriors. Bronze helmet plates from locations in Sweden and designs upon the Sutton Hoo
pyrse lid seem to show examples of these initiatory encounters, where a human figure is seen
grappling with one, or often two, bear-like animals."
(Margaret A. Arent. "The Heroic Pattern: Old German Helmets, Beowulf, and Grettis Saga." in Old Norse Literature and Mythology. ed. Edgar C. Polome. Austin, Univ. of Texas Press. 1969. pp. 133-139)
"The physical appearance of the berserk was one calculated to present an image of terror.
Dumezil draws parallels between the berserk and the tribe of Harii mentioned in Tacitus's
Germania who used not only "natural ferocity" but also dyed their bodies to cause panic
and terror in their enemies, just as the berserk combined his fearsome reputation with
animal skin dress to suggest the terrifying metamorphosis of the shape changer.
(Dumezil, Destiny of the Warrior, p. 141)
Link
***
3) About why the Viksø helmet was probably used in rituals:
I'll reproduce the text found in this site:
"(...)Viksø helmets could not have been much use in war and fighting, due to their impractical size and shape.
(...)We can get an idea of how the helmets were used by looking at figures and depictions of helmet-clad men. Two small male figures of bronze were found in the 18th century at Grevensvænge, near Næstved. The men wear helmets with curved horns like those from Viksø. Only one of the figures is preserved today, but old drawings of the find show that the two men originally knelt down besides each other and each had a large ornamental axe in one hand.
The same motif, of kneeling men wearing helmets and carrying axes, is depicted on a razor from Vestrup in south Zealand. The men are sitting in a boat.
Ships, helmets and ornamental axes were all used in connection with religious activities in the later Bronze Age.
The combination of men with helmets and axes is also found on Swedish rock carvings. The warriors on the rock carvings from Sotetorp at Tanum in the Bohuslän area are helmet clad and carry axes. They also have swords at the hip and hold a round object in the other hand – perhaps a sun image? A third person is jumping acrobatically over the boat.
Ritual acts or dances were apparently carried out in honour of the sun, which was the central element of Bronze Age religion."
"The horned helmets from Viksø are more than just helmets. To the people of the Bronze Age they were rich in religious meaning and probably related to myths about holy animals and divine powers. They functioned both as helmets and masks, as they were equipped with eyes and a hooked beak.
The picture of the Sun Ship on the helmets from Viksø refers to a central myth in Bronze Age religion. This is the myth of the sun’s eternal journey round and round, with the help of the Sun Ship. The other important helper on this journey is the sun horse, which pulls the sun across the sky. The horse, which is the noblest and holiest of all animals, is represented on the helmets in the form of a mane. The ox, represented by the horns, can symbolise strength and wealth. In many religions the ox is also a heavenly symbol.
The bird of prey, which constitutes the masks on the helmets, may also be connected to the myth about the sun’s eternal journey. If it is an owl, this probably relates to night-time. Finally the added feathers from the crane, which can also be seen in Bronze Age rock carvings from Sweden, may be connected to the changing of the seasons. The crane is the largest and most beautiful of the migratory birds.
The whole symbolic world, which is represented on the Viksø helmets, emphasises their function as holy objects used in religious rituals."
Font
***
Hope this clarifies some things.
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