Horns on helmets
- 主题发起人 FrisianDude
- 开始时间
正在查看此主题的用户
- 状态
High heels? Is to make women's posture sexier, more attactive and make even flat girls look busty, pretty much 
Austupaio 说:What exactly is that purpose?Night Ninja 说:They work perfectly well for their intended purpose.
GodHandApostole 说:High heels? Is to make women's posture sexier, more attactive and make even flat girls look busty, pretty much
Thought it was to add height and also to cause the muscles in their legs to tighten (and look more attractive)...don't think it has anything to do with making women look busty.
Anyway, matmohair, it is impressive the pictures you are producing (particularly the ones of the Nordic Bronze Age), but they are mostly rubbish when you look closely. Lets inspect the last pictures of your last post for example:
The third picture in the first set seems to be a depiction of the siege of Troy, but the armors they use are highly stylized versions of the truth. (Dendra Panoply)
For the second set, skipping the tapestries (not going to refute those), the last two pictures are garbage. First of all, books that cover as wide a time period of 3000 B.C.-1700 are typically going to have numerous historical errors.
#189 and 191 are fine (though not sure about 189's chest piece and the boar crest would be smaller if it is referencing the Vendel era helmet)
#187 and 190 are bizarre. 190 might be somewhat correct if it is supposed to be a German in Roman service, since they occasionally would have ceremonial masks like that (as found at Kalkriese/Teutoberger for example).
#193's cuirass seems odd
#192 is relatively fine (shoeless seems odd though) but considering the Alemanni arose out of the Suevi/Suebi/Swebaz it is a peculiar choice to have #194...whose depiction is crap. Ignoring the caveman aura going on in his apparel, they didn't even get the damn Suebian knot right.
The second image is better except for the chieftan and the red-haired warrior which is obviously referencing Thor (red hair and tossing a hammer...Mjolnir?)
Also, the man in blue to his right is wearing an improper helmet for the period, that example is from the Vendel era (I saw the actual helmet when I was in Stockholm)
#'s 201, 202, and 206 are the best ones there though, and good from what I can tell.
Anyway, the point is that although you are producing a lot of photographs, most of them are of questionable historical accuracy. It is getting to the point where you are spamming us with crap.
Hmm.. more then busty, high heels should contribute to make a girl's rear a bit more curvy as well.. Oh well. We could start a topic on the historical importance of high heels! Would be fun and matmohair's pictures might be more interesting to look at
Though I agree that observing sources and further more mixing sources with works of fiction can only become confusing. All sources should be intepreted and not simply stared at in awe For instance, in this topic no one has yet disproved my points about Crusades' time and elaborate crests so I feel justified keeping my opinion (They were rare to the point they could be used to identify single knights and nobles among hundreds of thousands of warriors)
Would be fun and matmohair's pictures might be more interesting to look at Though I agree that observing sources and further more mixing sources with works of fiction can only become confusing. All sources should be intepreted and not simply stared at in awe
For instance, in this topic no one has yet disproved my points about Crusades' time and elaborate crests so I feel justified keeping my opinion (They were rare to the point they could be used to identify single knights and nobles among hundreds of thousands of warriors)
I get what you are saying and agree (with the side topic of high heels), but bust and busty are words purely related to the breasts, so perhaps you are accidentally applying the term to the woman's backside as well and causing confusion (with me anyway, lol)?
Thoroughtly correct. I confused Busty with Curvy, infact! My bad
ANCIENT GERMANIC WARRIORS
Warrior styles from Trajan’s Column to Icelandic sagas
by Michael P.Speidel - part 1 / chapter 3 "BUCKS"
Warrior styles from Trajan’s Column to Icelandic sagas
by Michael P.Speidel - part 1 / chapter 3 "BUCKS"
"A horned buck, knowing he has weapons, rushes into fights all the time." - Columella
Bucks (billy goats), stubborn and full of fight, also inspired Indo-European warriors.
Buck-warriors, often wearing horned helmets, are found among Vedic Indians, Iranians,
Sardinians, Mycenaeans, archaic Greeks, and Celts. Early Rome knew them too: buckwarriors
of Juno Sospita had their part in the Lupercalia festival as had wolf-warriors of
Romulus and Mars. 1
Ancient Germani too fought as buck-warriors. Cornuti (“Horned Ones”), wearing
horned helmets, stand out on several reliefs on Constantine’s Arch (Figure 3.1). 2
Since the horns on the helmets rise from the front, not from the side, they are goat
horns rather than bull horns. Carved by different artists, not all horned helmets on
Constantine’s Arch look alike: in the marching and battle scenes the horns bend forward,
in the scenes depicting the siege of Verona and the entry into Rome, they are straight or
bend backward. Nevertheless, all mark the same kind of troops: horned buck-warriors.
The reliefs on Constantine’s Arch show the horned warriors, wherever they are found,
as front-rank fighters. In the siege-of-Verona scene they run along the walls, ahead of
everyone else; in the battle at the Milvian Bridge, they, together with bowmen and
horsemen, do all the fighting. Marked by their horned helmets as foreigners and
portrayed as Constantine’s most outstanding troops, they must be the emperor’s topranking
Auxilia Palatina. 3
The highest-ranking Auxilia Palatina are known from the Notitia Dignitatum, the
Roman government handbook of about AD 400, which lists Cornuti, Brachiati,
Petulantes, and Celtae at the head of the Auxilia. Since all four of these units have twindragon
shield badges, they belong together and were very likely raised together. Having
similar shield badges, the four units also likely had the same fighting spirit: the one
evoked by the name of the Petulantes—the bucks’ instinct of stubborn attack. 4
Literary evidence states that the elite troops who in 311 won for Constantine the battle at
the Milvian Bridge were largely Germanic warriors. 5 This confirms that the Cornuti and
Petulantes, Constantine’s most outstanding troops, were Germanic auxiliaries. Certainly
Constantine saw them as such, for he had their shield badge depicted on his arch in Rome (Figure 3.2) 6
The shield, borne by an officer in the victory parade on the socle of the arch, blazons
the twin-dragon badge of the Auxilia Palatina. The gill-slits, clearly seen on the left
dragon, prove that these are facing dragons, not “horns” as has been claimed.
The un-Roman, Germanic twin-dragon symbol—the same as that on the Torslunda die (Figure1.6)
—is here rigged with goat horns to adapt it to buck-warriors. 7 A bronze statuette, now
in Princeton, shows Emperor Constantine holding a shield with this twin-dragon badge 8 : adopting their shield, the
emperor wants himself to be seen as a Cornutus buck-warrior. 9
Likewise acknowledging the Cornuti’s fame, another relief on Constantine’s Arch
depicts one of their horn-helmeted officers escorting a personified Roma to the victorious emperor. 10
It is a stunning picture—Germanic buck-warriors conquering Rome.
A hundred years later, Germanic tribal warriors again conquered the city—the Goths in AD
410—only then on their own account, against the emperor.
Although buck-warriors were Rome’s elite troops during the fourth century, given the
overall dearth of evidence they left few traces among free Germanic tribes. One of these
is a third-century scabbard chape, engraved with a buck, that came to light in Denmark
(Figure 3.3).
Since the buck decorated a weapon, it must have had a warrior meaning: the scabbard
belonged to a buck-warrior. The find-spot in Denmark fits very well, for some of
Maximian’s and Constantine’s prisoners of war, and hence their Auxilia, such as the
Heruli, came from there. 11
The shorter Gallehus gold horn of about AD 400, likewise from Denmark but now lost,
depicts two naked gods with buck horns, war-dancing. Since gods wore such horns, buckwarriors
may have felt themselves repeating the primordial deeds of gods, enacting the
world-wide myth of the eternal return.
Saxo Grammaticus in the thirteenth century says of the legendary Danish king Gram
that he put on goatskins to intimidate others and wielded a frightful club. When Gro, the
daughter of the Swedish king Sigtruk, saw him, she said: “Bold warriors have often
hidden themselves under the hides of beasts.” Gram, in a sense, was a buck-warrior. 12
She-goats were the antithesis to buck-warriors. When in AD 363 Emperor Julian
paraded Persian prisoners before his army, he called them “foul she-goats disfigured with
filth” to brand them as woeful cowards. In the Grettis saga, the men from whom earl
Audun bought his life called him Audun Geit, “Audun the Nanny-Goat.” 13
Frankish and Nordic warrior names like Buccilin and Bucciovalda became rare after
Christianity called the buck the devil’s animal. 14 Indeed, what is known of buck-warriors
shows that our knowledge of ancient and early medieval warrior styles depends on the
hazards of evidence lost or preserved. Only for wolf-warriors do we have sources rich
enough to write a detailed history. But while we have fewer sources for buck-warriors,
they may nevertheless have thrived from the Bronze Age to the Middle Ages. 15
1 Columella 7.3.4: “est illud incommodum in cornuto, quod *** sentiat se velut quodam
naturali telo capitis armatum, frequenter in pugnam procurrit.” Indians: Alföldi, “Cornuti”
1959, 177f.; Kershaw, God2000, 202. Iranians: Ammianus 19.1.3 on the Shah wearing a
ram’s head, for which see the Sassanian silver bowl now in Baltimore: Alföldi, Struktur
1974, plate 14; Dumézil, Destiny 1970, 139. Sardinian Shardana: Drews, End 1993, 135ff.,
145 and 154; Cunliffe, Prehistory 1994, 286f. Mycenaeans: the famous warrior-vase from
Mycenae (Vermeule and Karagheorgis, Vase Painting 1982, 132ff.; Catalogue no. XI, 42).
Archaic Greeks: Jeanmaire, Couroi 1939, 570–575; Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, 177f.
Alexander’s horned fur helmet (Künzl, “Fellhelme” 1999, fig. 11) may be a buck headgear.
Celts: Diodore 5.30. Birkhan, Kelten 1997, 1125–1149. The Celtic war god was often
horned: Pauli, Kelten 1980 (with goatskin); Birkhan, Kelten 1997, 637. Celtic buck-warriors
are known from helmets with goat horns and from the British Gabrantovices (Goat People):
Birkhan, “Germanen” 1970, 462ff. Romans: coins and terracottas show Juno Sospita dressed
like a goat-hooded warrior; Alföldi, Struktur 1974, 86ff. (with a huge bibliography); see also
Widengren, Feudalismus 1969, 57; Dumézil, Religion 1970, 346ff.; Ulf, Luperkalienfest
1982, 140f., doubts whether Luperci and wolves are related, but provisionally admits bucks
and hounds as “initiation animals”; Kershaw, God 2000, 148; 192f. The Luperci have a very
close parallel in the vrāta of Vedic India: de Vries, Religionsgeschichte II, 1957, 96.
2 L’Orange, Bildschmuck 1939, 41–43; 60–64.
3 L’Orange, Bildschmuck 1939, 63, takes all spearmen of the siege scene to be Cornuti, but the
second and the fourth may not have horns and the third certainly has none. However, since
they wear the same leather helmets as that worn by Cornutus below the wall, they are also
Germanic warriors of the auxilia. Their leather helmets recall the leather helmet of a
horseman in scene 36 of Trajan’s Column (Figure 0.2), also from the Rhine; compare earlier
large Celtic horned leather helmets: Moreau, Welt 1961, plate 48f.; Birkhan, Kelten 1997,
1125f.
4 Notitia Dignitatum Oc. V, 2–23; Seeck, Notitia, 1876, 115. For the raising of these units under
Maximian (284–305) see Julian, Orations 1.34; Hoffmann, Bewegungsheer I, 1969, 155f.;
hence Altheim, Literatur 1948, 232 wrongly thinks they did not fight at the Milvian Bridge
in 312. Fighting spirit: Columella 7.6.4: Quia cornuti fere perniciosi sunt propter
petulantiam; cf. Petulantia in Ammianus 17.13.28; 26.7.4; 29.5.33; 31.6.3; Alföldi,
“Schildzeichen” 1935. Bucks as warrior animals: Müller, Personennamen 1970, 190. Other
Germanic warriors besides the Cornuti and Petulantes of Constantine’s Arch may also have
worn helmets with upstanding horns, as on the Pruttning stone of AD 313: CIL III
11771=Garbsch and Overbeck, Spätantike 1989, 71; contra: Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, 173;
Hauck, “Polytheismus” 1994, 211. Helmets with horns carved or overlaid on the bowl, are,
of course common, see the Portonaccio sarcophagus, Figure 17.4.
5 Germanic warriors: Zosimus 2.15.1; Libanius, Oratio 30.6; Speidel, “Auxilia” 1996. Contra
Barnes, Augustine 1995, 387 “largely Gallic”; but see F.Paschoud, Zosime, Histoire
Nouvelle, vol. I, Paris 1971, 204. His “Germanoi” are men from the Rhine armies, named
after the Roman provinces of the Germaniae. Gauls, pacified for 350 years, had lost their
onetime warrior traditions (Tacitus, Agricola 11), although some still enrolled (Hoffmann,
Bewegungsheer I, 1969, 154).
6 Alföldi, “Schildzeichen” 1935; L’Orange, Bildsehmuck 1939, 43 and 123; Alföldi, “Cornuti”
1959; Höfler, Schriften 1992, 117ff.; Hauck, “Polytheismus” 1994, 208ff.
7 “Horns”: Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, 172; Hoffmann, Bewegungsheer I, 1969, 132f.; Hauck,
“Bilddenkmäler” 1976, 590; Hauck, “Polytheismus” 1994, 218. For a buck with a beard
coming down from the upper lip see e.g. Selzer, Steindenkmäler 1988, no. 255, though
snakes also have such beards: Garbsch, Paraderüstungen 1978, plate 3, B3 (greave B11
from Straubing).
8 Princeton Art Museum; Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, fig. 2.
9 As emperors paraded in the accoutrements of their guard, Cornuti promoted from the auxilium
must have formed a section of the Schola Gentilium guard.
10 Cornuti on the arch: L’Orange, Bildschmuck 1939, 41–43; 60–64. They are famous later as
well: Ammianus 15.5.30; 16.11.9; 16.12.43; 16.12.63; 31.8.9.
11 Meaning: Werner, Aufkommen 1966, 25. Heruli, etc: Panegyrici Latini 10.5.1: “Chaibones
Erulique, viribus primi barbarorum, locis ultimi”; Nixon, Praise 1994, 62ff. Panegyrici
Latini 12.25.2: “Tibi se ex ultime barbaria indigenae populi dedivere.” Speidel, “Auxilia”
2004.
12 Gallehus horn: see p. 122. Myth: Eliade, Myth 1954. Saxo, 13f.: “Nam tegmine saepe
ferino/contigit audaces delituisse viros.” Davidson, in her 1979 commentary p. 28, note 13,
quotes an Icelandic parallel. Perhaps a buck-warrior is meant in the Oseberg weaving:
Marstrander, Skipene 1986, 128 (upper left). Buck-warriors fired the Dutch nationalistic
historical imagination: Teitler, Opstand 1998, 9; 11; 22; 40; 66.
13 She-goats: Ammianus 24.8.1: “deformes illuvie capellas et taetras.” Audun the Nanny Goat:
Grettis saga 7.
14 Names: Müller, Personennamen 1970, 75ff.; 169; 190; a new Buccus from Vindolanda:
Birley, Garrison 2002, 100—though the name could also be Celtic as in CIL XIII, 5730
(Langres). Bucciovaldus (“Buck-Warrior Leader”): Gregory of Tours, Historiae 9.23;
Buccilin, etc.: Reichert, Lexikon II, 1990, 487; also Birkhan, “Germanen” 1970, 462f;
Müller, Personennamen 1970, 190.
15 Ethnographic traces of buck-warriors from the Middle Ages to the present: de Vries,
Religionsgeschichte II, 1957, 64, referring to masked processions; Höfler, Geheimbünde
1934, 40f.; Höfler, Runenstein 1952, 175; Alföldi, Struktur 1974, 95.
Bucks (billy goats), stubborn and full of fight, also inspired Indo-European warriors.
Buck-warriors, often wearing horned helmets, are found among Vedic Indians, Iranians,
Sardinians, Mycenaeans, archaic Greeks, and Celts. Early Rome knew them too: buckwarriors
of Juno Sospita had their part in the Lupercalia festival as had wolf-warriors of
Romulus and Mars. 1
Ancient Germani too fought as buck-warriors. Cornuti (“Horned Ones”), wearing
horned helmets, stand out on several reliefs on Constantine’s Arch (Figure 3.1). 2
Since the horns on the helmets rise from the front, not from the side, they are goat
horns rather than bull horns. Carved by different artists, not all horned helmets on
Constantine’s Arch look alike: in the marching and battle scenes the horns bend forward,
in the scenes depicting the siege of Verona and the entry into Rome, they are straight or
bend backward. Nevertheless, all mark the same kind of troops: horned buck-warriors.
The reliefs on Constantine’s Arch show the horned warriors, wherever they are found,
as front-rank fighters. In the siege-of-Verona scene they run along the walls, ahead of
everyone else; in the battle at the Milvian Bridge, they, together with bowmen and
horsemen, do all the fighting. Marked by their horned helmets as foreigners and
portrayed as Constantine’s most outstanding troops, they must be the emperor’s topranking
Auxilia Palatina. 3
The highest-ranking Auxilia Palatina are known from the Notitia Dignitatum, the
Roman government handbook of about AD 400, which lists Cornuti, Brachiati,
Petulantes, and Celtae at the head of the Auxilia. Since all four of these units have twindragon
shield badges, they belong together and were very likely raised together. Having
similar shield badges, the four units also likely had the same fighting spirit: the one
evoked by the name of the Petulantes—the bucks’ instinct of stubborn attack. 4
Literary evidence states that the elite troops who in 311 won for Constantine the battle at
the Milvian Bridge were largely Germanic warriors. 5 This confirms that the Cornuti and
Petulantes, Constantine’s most outstanding troops, were Germanic auxiliaries. Certainly
Constantine saw them as such, for he had their shield badge depicted on his arch in Rome (Figure 3.2) 6
The shield, borne by an officer in the victory parade on the socle of the arch, blazons
the twin-dragon badge of the Auxilia Palatina. The gill-slits, clearly seen on the left
dragon, prove that these are facing dragons, not “horns” as has been claimed.
The un-Roman, Germanic twin-dragon symbol—the same as that on the Torslunda die (Figure1.6)
—is here rigged with goat horns to adapt it to buck-warriors. 7 A bronze statuette, now
in Princeton, shows Emperor Constantine holding a shield with this twin-dragon badge 8 : adopting their shield, the
emperor wants himself to be seen as a Cornutus buck-warrior. 9
Likewise acknowledging the Cornuti’s fame, another relief on Constantine’s Arch
depicts one of their horn-helmeted officers escorting a personified Roma to the victorious emperor. 10
It is a stunning picture—Germanic buck-warriors conquering Rome.
A hundred years later, Germanic tribal warriors again conquered the city—the Goths in AD
410—only then on their own account, against the emperor.
Although buck-warriors were Rome’s elite troops during the fourth century, given the
overall dearth of evidence they left few traces among free Germanic tribes. One of these
is a third-century scabbard chape, engraved with a buck, that came to light in Denmark
(Figure 3.3).
Since the buck decorated a weapon, it must have had a warrior meaning: the scabbard
belonged to a buck-warrior. The find-spot in Denmark fits very well, for some of
Maximian’s and Constantine’s prisoners of war, and hence their Auxilia, such as the
Heruli, came from there. 11
The shorter Gallehus gold horn of about AD 400, likewise from Denmark but now lost,
depicts two naked gods with buck horns, war-dancing. Since gods wore such horns, buckwarriors
may have felt themselves repeating the primordial deeds of gods, enacting the
world-wide myth of the eternal return.
Saxo Grammaticus in the thirteenth century says of the legendary Danish king Gram
that he put on goatskins to intimidate others and wielded a frightful club. When Gro, the
daughter of the Swedish king Sigtruk, saw him, she said: “Bold warriors have often
hidden themselves under the hides of beasts.” Gram, in a sense, was a buck-warrior. 12
She-goats were the antithesis to buck-warriors. When in AD 363 Emperor Julian
paraded Persian prisoners before his army, he called them “foul she-goats disfigured with
filth” to brand them as woeful cowards. In the Grettis saga, the men from whom earl
Audun bought his life called him Audun Geit, “Audun the Nanny-Goat.” 13
Frankish and Nordic warrior names like Buccilin and Bucciovalda became rare after
Christianity called the buck the devil’s animal. 14 Indeed, what is known of buck-warriors
shows that our knowledge of ancient and early medieval warrior styles depends on the
hazards of evidence lost or preserved. Only for wolf-warriors do we have sources rich
enough to write a detailed history. But while we have fewer sources for buck-warriors,
they may nevertheless have thrived from the Bronze Age to the Middle Ages. 15
1 Columella 7.3.4: “est illud incommodum in cornuto, quod *** sentiat se velut quodam
naturali telo capitis armatum, frequenter in pugnam procurrit.” Indians: Alföldi, “Cornuti”
1959, 177f.; Kershaw, God2000, 202. Iranians: Ammianus 19.1.3 on the Shah wearing a
ram’s head, for which see the Sassanian silver bowl now in Baltimore: Alföldi, Struktur
1974, plate 14; Dumézil, Destiny 1970, 139. Sardinian Shardana: Drews, End 1993, 135ff.,
145 and 154; Cunliffe, Prehistory 1994, 286f. Mycenaeans: the famous warrior-vase from
Mycenae (Vermeule and Karagheorgis, Vase Painting 1982, 132ff.; Catalogue no. XI, 42).
Archaic Greeks: Jeanmaire, Couroi 1939, 570–575; Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, 177f.
Alexander’s horned fur helmet (Künzl, “Fellhelme” 1999, fig. 11) may be a buck headgear.
Celts: Diodore 5.30. Birkhan, Kelten 1997, 1125–1149. The Celtic war god was often
horned: Pauli, Kelten 1980 (with goatskin); Birkhan, Kelten 1997, 637. Celtic buck-warriors
are known from helmets with goat horns and from the British Gabrantovices (Goat People):
Birkhan, “Germanen” 1970, 462ff. Romans: coins and terracottas show Juno Sospita dressed
like a goat-hooded warrior; Alföldi, Struktur 1974, 86ff. (with a huge bibliography); see also
Widengren, Feudalismus 1969, 57; Dumézil, Religion 1970, 346ff.; Ulf, Luperkalienfest
1982, 140f., doubts whether Luperci and wolves are related, but provisionally admits bucks
and hounds as “initiation animals”; Kershaw, God 2000, 148; 192f. The Luperci have a very
close parallel in the vrāta of Vedic India: de Vries, Religionsgeschichte II, 1957, 96.
2 L’Orange, Bildschmuck 1939, 41–43; 60–64.
3 L’Orange, Bildschmuck 1939, 63, takes all spearmen of the siege scene to be Cornuti, but the
second and the fourth may not have horns and the third certainly has none. However, since
they wear the same leather helmets as that worn by Cornutus below the wall, they are also
Germanic warriors of the auxilia. Their leather helmets recall the leather helmet of a
horseman in scene 36 of Trajan’s Column (Figure 0.2), also from the Rhine; compare earlier
large Celtic horned leather helmets: Moreau, Welt 1961, plate 48f.; Birkhan, Kelten 1997,
1125f.
4 Notitia Dignitatum Oc. V, 2–23; Seeck, Notitia, 1876, 115. For the raising of these units under
Maximian (284–305) see Julian, Orations 1.34; Hoffmann, Bewegungsheer I, 1969, 155f.;
hence Altheim, Literatur 1948, 232 wrongly thinks they did not fight at the Milvian Bridge
in 312. Fighting spirit: Columella 7.6.4: Quia cornuti fere perniciosi sunt propter
petulantiam; cf. Petulantia in Ammianus 17.13.28; 26.7.4; 29.5.33; 31.6.3; Alföldi,
“Schildzeichen” 1935. Bucks as warrior animals: Müller, Personennamen 1970, 190. Other
Germanic warriors besides the Cornuti and Petulantes of Constantine’s Arch may also have
worn helmets with upstanding horns, as on the Pruttning stone of AD 313: CIL III
11771=Garbsch and Overbeck, Spätantike 1989, 71; contra: Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, 173;
Hauck, “Polytheismus” 1994, 211. Helmets with horns carved or overlaid on the bowl, are,
of course common, see the Portonaccio sarcophagus, Figure 17.4.
5 Germanic warriors: Zosimus 2.15.1; Libanius, Oratio 30.6; Speidel, “Auxilia” 1996. Contra
Barnes, Augustine 1995, 387 “largely Gallic”; but see F.Paschoud, Zosime, Histoire
Nouvelle, vol. I, Paris 1971, 204. His “Germanoi” are men from the Rhine armies, named
after the Roman provinces of the Germaniae. Gauls, pacified for 350 years, had lost their
onetime warrior traditions (Tacitus, Agricola 11), although some still enrolled (Hoffmann,
Bewegungsheer I, 1969, 154).
6 Alföldi, “Schildzeichen” 1935; L’Orange, Bildsehmuck 1939, 43 and 123; Alföldi, “Cornuti”
1959; Höfler, Schriften 1992, 117ff.; Hauck, “Polytheismus” 1994, 208ff.
7 “Horns”: Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, 172; Hoffmann, Bewegungsheer I, 1969, 132f.; Hauck,
“Bilddenkmäler” 1976, 590; Hauck, “Polytheismus” 1994, 218. For a buck with a beard
coming down from the upper lip see e.g. Selzer, Steindenkmäler 1988, no. 255, though
snakes also have such beards: Garbsch, Paraderüstungen 1978, plate 3, B3 (greave B11
from Straubing).
8 Princeton Art Museum; Alföldi, “Cornuti” 1959, fig. 2.
9 As emperors paraded in the accoutrements of their guard, Cornuti promoted from the auxilium
must have formed a section of the Schola Gentilium guard.
10 Cornuti on the arch: L’Orange, Bildschmuck 1939, 41–43; 60–64. They are famous later as
well: Ammianus 15.5.30; 16.11.9; 16.12.43; 16.12.63; 31.8.9.
11 Meaning: Werner, Aufkommen 1966, 25. Heruli, etc: Panegyrici Latini 10.5.1: “Chaibones
Erulique, viribus primi barbarorum, locis ultimi”; Nixon, Praise 1994, 62ff. Panegyrici
Latini 12.25.2: “Tibi se ex ultime barbaria indigenae populi dedivere.” Speidel, “Auxilia”
2004.
12 Gallehus horn: see p. 122. Myth: Eliade, Myth 1954. Saxo, 13f.: “Nam tegmine saepe
ferino/contigit audaces delituisse viros.” Davidson, in her 1979 commentary p. 28, note 13,
quotes an Icelandic parallel. Perhaps a buck-warrior is meant in the Oseberg weaving:
Marstrander, Skipene 1986, 128 (upper left). Buck-warriors fired the Dutch nationalistic
historical imagination: Teitler, Opstand 1998, 9; 11; 22; 40; 66.
13 She-goats: Ammianus 24.8.1: “deformes illuvie capellas et taetras.” Audun the Nanny Goat:
Grettis saga 7.
14 Names: Müller, Personennamen 1970, 75ff.; 169; 190; a new Buccus from Vindolanda:
Birley, Garrison 2002, 100—though the name could also be Celtic as in CIL XIII, 5730
(Langres). Bucciovaldus (“Buck-Warrior Leader”): Gregory of Tours, Historiae 9.23;
Buccilin, etc.: Reichert, Lexikon II, 1990, 487; also Birkhan, “Germanen” 1970, 462f;
Müller, Personennamen 1970, 190.
15 Ethnographic traces of buck-warriors from the Middle Ages to the present: de Vries,
Religionsgeschichte II, 1957, 64, referring to masked processions; Höfler, Geheimbünde
1934, 40f.; Höfler, Runenstein 1952, 175; Alföldi, Struktur 1974, 95.
You know the guys making counter-arguments can't even be bothered to provide quotes that contradict you, let alone read the materials you've provided that prove your central thesis, right?
Anyhow, you're awesome; I now feel almost zero guilt at having horny Vikings running around in Blood and Steel
Anyhow, you're awesome; I now feel almost zero guilt at having horny Vikings running around in Blood and Steel
I've always only argued to a very specific time period and context, so unless shown primary sources, why should I suddenly agree that crusading knights wore horns?
The vast majority, to our corrent knowledge, did not. We have 1 report in a single siege mentioning antlers, which still fits in my idea of easily disposable crests. And one seal from Richard the Lionheart (which is still dubiously representing a solid crest; more likely simple horsehair if anything). That cannot cover for hundreds of slick helms depicted in pretty much any other image and description from the same time period, now can it?
Up to the XIV century, it would likely appear even great helms were pretty simple in composition and construction and any fashionable addition came on top, simply laid over the helm or tied on it. This didn't even happen in early tournaments for what we know, because those were little more then controlled battles among smaller knights' factions and to make one self recognizable it was rather heraldry that made a difference, not elaborated crests.
Actually, as far as I can tell, observing sources, when European middle ages are concerned, I'll go as far as to say that the phenomenon of crests lived and died with transitional armours and the XIV century, then it became relegated to tournaments only. And I have a very simple argument in favour of this theory: nearly all other periods' depictions show unadorned helms wore in battle. Late medieval and Then again, even when there are crests, they are limited to feathers and such.
So yes, horns did adorn a good share of helms thorough history. In ancient times they were fairly common, even though it remains nigh impossible to figure out how much of the depictions we possess portray ceremonies over actual fights. In certain regions they definitely appear to be more popular then in others. However, in medieval warfare, only very few and isolated characters seem to have chose that kind of symbol in battle, so much so that there's mention of one knight sticking out of the crow for wearing antlers over his head.
P.S.
The vast majority, to our corrent knowledge, did not. We have 1 report in a single siege mentioning antlers, which still fits in my idea of easily disposable crests. And one seal from Richard the Lionheart (which is still dubiously representing a solid crest; more likely simple horsehair if anything). That cannot cover for hundreds of slick helms depicted in pretty much any other image and description from the same time period, now can it?
Up to the XIV century, it would likely appear even great helms were pretty simple in composition and construction and any fashionable addition came on top, simply laid over the helm or tied on it. This didn't even happen in early tournaments for what we know, because those were little more then controlled battles among smaller knights' factions and to make one self recognizable it was rather heraldry that made a difference, not elaborated crests.
Actually, as far as I can tell, observing sources, when European middle ages are concerned, I'll go as far as to say that the phenomenon of crests lived and died with transitional armours and the XIV century, then it became relegated to tournaments only. And I have a very simple argument in favour of this theory: nearly all other periods' depictions show unadorned helms wore in battle. Late medieval and Then again, even when there are crests, they are limited to feathers and such.
So yes, horns did adorn a good share of helms thorough history. In ancient times they were fairly common, even though it remains nigh impossible to figure out how much of the depictions we possess portray ceremonies over actual fights. In certain regions they definitely appear to be more popular then in others. However, in medieval warfare, only very few and isolated characters seem to have chose that kind of symbol in battle, so much so that there's mention of one knight sticking out of the crow for wearing antlers over his head.
P.S.
Arguing about these things is something I usually find rather positive, if not even enriching. I definitely feel I learned much more around these forums then in years of university, simply because this is a more open approach. It doesn't involve a sage from the ivory tower repeating notions that are the same since over a century that accepts no other way then his way. It is more democratic, you could say. It is certainly more interesting and much like the concept behind Wiki sites, it allows knowledge to be more widely spread. Sure enough, this concept has its flaws and sometimes people with no knowledge will speak of things they know nothing about. Though this type of discussion only becomes pointless and empty when they are not accompanied by criticism. Observing sources without a bit of healthy doubt and will to go deeper then the plain image makes studying history a truly futile exercise. When someone claims something that is widely accepted as wrong, others argue against it. There can be the case when the apparently absurd claim becomes the accepted truth, though, simply because when approaching these topics everyone can observe and think, than form his own opinion. I learned a lot about this very topic, even without changing my initial opinion (which was infact hardly specific) so I honestly see no harm in this thread's discussion, especially since it remained fairly civilized.
So, if it sometimes feels like a dead horse is being beaten here, whoever feels that way: leave the few that still have will to analyze further to their little pleasures; they're not really causing you any harm and you're not compelled to read nor reply
So, if it sometimes feels like a dead horse is being beaten here, whoever feels that way: leave the few that still have will to analyze further to their little pleasures; they're not really causing you any harm and you're not compelled to read nor reply
Well, he provided a lot of primary sources; that's what all those images are. You can even back-track most of them to where he got them, it's pretty convincing
So... if you wanna play armchair academic, that's fine, I certainly enjoy seeing that game played well. But it's time to provide counter-evidence, guys, not just opinion.
None of your primary arguments stand up to scrutiny- we've seen Viking, pre-Viking and post-Viking warriors, all with a surprising amount of crazy stuff on their headgear. The ancients may not have been logical in this, but clearly the argument that it was a serious danger to the combatant doesn't wash, or nobody would do so. It's worth noting that this trend continued even into the period where you'd most-expect the reality of combat to argue most strongly against ornamentation during the late 13th - 15th centuries, when knights were largely fighting on foot. The archeological evidence and objects clearly argue the other side.
So, start citing studies, papers, books, pictorial evidence.
It's how this game's played, guys. You can't just say that the other guy's sources aren't adequate, when there's that much evidence presented, it's necessary to prove it.
So... if you wanna play armchair academic, that's fine, I certainly enjoy seeing that game played well. But it's time to provide counter-evidence, guys, not just opinion.
None of your primary arguments stand up to scrutiny- we've seen Viking, pre-Viking and post-Viking warriors, all with a surprising amount of crazy stuff on their headgear. The ancients may not have been logical in this, but clearly the argument that it was a serious danger to the combatant doesn't wash, or nobody would do so. It's worth noting that this trend continued even into the period where you'd most-expect the reality of combat to argue most strongly against ornamentation during the late 13th - 15th centuries, when knights were largely fighting on foot. The archeological evidence and objects clearly argue the other side.
So, start citing studies, papers, books, pictorial evidence.
It's how this game's played, guys. You can't just say that the other guy's sources aren't adequate, when there's that much evidence presented, it's necessary to prove it.
I insisted several times on the lack of contemporary primary sources. There are no XII century examples of crests shown and all or most of them come, infact, from the second half of the XIII or from the XIV. Further more, even XIII century sources (I shouldn't even need to mention it at this point but it's easy enough; Morgan Bible) completely deny any sort of onarnament. Late in the XIII century and in early XIV there's plenty of crests and horns in particular. Afterward, not so many, especially in battle depictions.
But let us extend it. Let's assume in the 15th and 16th century they knew more of the past couple of centuries then we do:
Go ahead, find me a crest there. I think the closest it gets are the Arabic hats on the last manuscript Most of the depictions we have of crusades' battles are in that form and there are no elaborate horns or wings or sculptures in the frays. All I see are crowns... and those have a tendancy to be fairly unique
My simple point; we cannot take the exception as rule. Horned helms in the crusades' time were few among an already small number of warriors. Knights were an elite, obviously. Among that elite, maybe a handful ever went into a fray with horns on their helms. The vast majority of knights and of soldiers in general, wore simple, fairly slick head protections.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62625104/otm39ra%26b.gif
But let us extend it. Let's assume in the 15th and 16th century they knew more of the past couple of centuries then we do:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62625104/Hattin.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62625104/images%20%282%29.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62625104/images%20%285%29.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62625104/imagesbh.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62625104/images%20%284%29.jpg
Most of the depictions we have of crusades' battles are in that form and there are no elaborate horns or wings or sculptures in the frays. All I see are crowns... and those have a tendancy to be fairly unique My simple point; we cannot take the exception as rule. Horned helms in the crusades' time were few among an already small number of warriors. Knights were an elite, obviously. Among that elite, maybe a handful ever went into a fray with horns on their helms. The vast majority of knights and of soldiers in general, wore simple, fairly slick head protections.
FrisianDude
Archduke
I love the maciejowski bible. And I just noticed the differently coloured lances.
I once noticed that too and mentioned it in AD1257 forum, though I think I agree with the reply there, it's possible a portion of the colours aren't very accurate and were used mainly for added variety and artistic porpuses. Though maybe they did actually paint their lances, who knows? The colours survived better then in most cases I'm particularly fond of that image because of the mail barding on the right horse.
I'm particularly fond of that image because of the mail barding on the right horse.
Heinruch von Vesler's "Apokalypse"
ordered by Luder of Braunschweig,
great master of the Teutonic Order during the years 1331 - 1355
Nicolaus Copernicus University library, Toruń
illustrations from the Manesse Codex
(University of Heidelberg)
Eneit Romance
Heinrich von Veldeke - 1215
ordered by Luder of Braunschweig,
great master of the Teutonic Order during the years 1331 - 1355
Nicolaus Copernicus University library, Toruń
illustrations from the Manesse Codex
(University of Heidelberg)
Eneit Romance
Heinrich von Veldeke - 1215
FrisianDude
Archduke
Oh very nice pictures. Especially the Codex Manesse, the fishy knight (Wolfram von Echtbach?) is awesome.
Edit; fish knight isn't Wolfram von Eschenbach, I saw it wrong. The guy after fish knight is Wolfram.
Edit; fish knight isn't Wolfram von Eschenbach, I saw it wrong. The guy after fish knight is Wolfram.
you mean "Wachsmut von Künzingen"btw, here are more illustrations from the Codex Manesse
larger & with better quality
- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
matmohair1 说:Eneit Romance
Heinrich von Veldeke - 1215
I like these. They still fall into easily disposable crests rather then metal horns, though some look pretty neat. I remembered the small flags on the helm and the eagle sculpture. I think there's also a similar example with a dragon. Though they could be made of molded leather or painted gesso, much like prince Edward's helm http://pics.myarmoury.com/bp_achievements01.jpg
matmohair1 说:
Remember how I said there are two depictions of Teutonic Knights with horns and one of them isn't actually a brother knight but the Bishop of Dorpat? Congrats, you found a copy of that picture.
Honestly xenoargh, I DON'T have time to research counter arguments, real life has taken a bitter turn for the worse these past couple of months. What I can do is tear apart the random pictures thrown up from modern sources that have their head up their collective asses. Amongst those are the Vikings shown with horns, which currently has no evidence. One thing you all fail to acknowledge is that a lot of these wall carvings and paintings are art, and as such often don't quite show what is reality. In much the same way as gods having totems to show who they are, often people are given crests to show who they are...just look at the circle with a cross on it in the picture I mentioned in the previous paragraph. This doesn't mean that he had a circle above his head with a cross on it, it just means that this guy is a crusader of the Teutonic Order. That book was also written 100 years after the events it is depicting...and considering how Medieval artists would often depict contemporary armor styles for biblical events, they didn't really care about accuracy.
The second group of pictures is more convincing, but most of those are tournament and heraldric armors (as is known to have existed), often of soft sewn material.
As for the Cornuti, yes they existed. However, they were in Roman service, so are not reflective of Germanics as a whole. The source you quote is quite sloppy and quick to make connections that are lacking. For example, the four units it lists as having the same twin dragon motif on its shields are said to be Germanic...yet explain to me how one of those units, Celtae, would be Germanic.... Although some of them might be Germanic, this assumption he makes that since all four units had similar shield symbols they were then raised from the same stock, which is a substantial jump in logic. No one knows if any of them were actually Germanic. Although I am not sure it is the case, it is also possible that the horns depicted on these units in art was also just to show they were the Cornuti or similar units, since their shield and unit insignia had horn-like depictions on it. I am not saying it is the case, but this could also be a possibility.
What is known is that Tacitus, one of the few Roman writers whose descriptions modern archaeology supports, not once mentioned horned warriors in Germanic societies. Who knows what they picked up in the following centuries when in contact with the Greco-Roman world.
- 状态
