Hooked attack and spear bracing

[AxiosXiphos]

There should be no dismounting mechanics until only the cav classes can ride most horses. Im fine with horsemen being forced to the ground, but getting your horse yoinked by an archer who is now a horse archer sounds incredibly unfun.

I have a feeling this is coming next patch anyway... though to be fair Grand Theft Horse does sound hilarious

In the video it says "hooked spears", so only a certain type of spear (with a visible hook by its spear head) should be able to throw riders off. I find that it's a weapon specific feature, rather than a stance by pressing X feature, so that looks OK for now, before we can actually test it and see how it feels, if it can be imported to Multiplayer, which factions/classes should get this type of spear etc.

I really like it - It's a new form of Anti-cavalry we haven't seen before; and I imagine it would be less effective as an actual anti-infantry weapon. It could be the perfect support tool for infantry in skirmish or "battle" when we get it. Will certainly make cav think twice!

 

[Terco_Viejo]

In the video it says "hooked spears", so only a certain type of spear (with a visible hook by its spear head) should be able to throw riders off. I find that it's a weapon specific feature, rather than a stance by pressing X feature, so that looks OK for now, before we can actually test it and see how it feels, if it can be imported to Multiplayer, which factions/classes should get this type of spear etc.

Of course not all spears should be able to perform such action; only those with a built-in hook (billhook variants, voulgue/glaives with hook, asian Ji, etc...) But the hooking action would place it within the two possibilities of weapon use (activable with X key).

I want to be the one who decides if I want to throw the rider or stab him from back; I don't want (or I wouldn't like) that somehow the "hook mode" was the default mode. In my opinion it should work with the X key mode as a lance when couching, a javelin when throwing or spear mode or the bracing spear action itself.

 

[๖Kern]

I find them to be two very interesting additions; but I would like to comment about them.

Brace spear: This implementation is totally understandable due to the heritage received from the mods. It's just been implemented and we haven't tried it yet; however I find the " sticking the stick" animation to be too fast. I think it should take a little longer to deploy the bracing and not as it currently is, almost instantaneously. Somethink like this:

It's hardly noticeable in the video, but I imagine that while the spear brace attack is being held, the movement is blocked (in any case, I think it should be so).

No doubt for MP the spear bracing would only apply to long polearms like pikes through the change of weapon use option (X key). A spear should not be able to be couchable (and even more so if it's combined with a shield), at least in MP environment (in SP it certainly has to).

Hooked attack: This was a real surprise for me; I like the concept very much.

On the other hand, I don't agree (currently with the video info - what we can see) with how this attack is carried out. Dismounting the rider with this technique should increase the probability of attacker mistake; I explain. In the video, we practically see a frontal attack and as a consequence of the direct impact, a posterior dismount of the rider. Personally, I don't think it should be like that.

As I see it, the hook attack (X key - use of weapon) should be able to be made only from a lateral or rear position in relation to the rider; for frontal attacks we already have spear bracing, isn't it?. To dismount a rider, we would have to hook him from behind or from the side; this would increase the difficulty of using this type of action.

Look at this gif, you can see how an external element compromises the stability of the rider in real life.	This animation would be interesting after a hook attack from the back.	The mocap (someone's pulling at you.)

Hooking someone from side or behind would be too OP in multiplayer and would remove any risk element involved.

 

[Firunien]

If it only hooks with a certain damage/force threshold it shouldnt be a problem, and you can get up fast enough to keep on fighting on foot.

 

[Tork789]

I'm afraid that bracing as it seems right now might be a huge overnerf for cavalry, but I'll wait to try it before forming a conclusion.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Hooking someone from side or behind would be too OP in multiplayer and would remove any risk element involved.

Certainly the feature has just been practically implemented and is already being a matter of debate (in my opinion very interesting). I personally believe that a frontal attack with a hook (stabbing animation like in the video) resulting in the falling of the rider, I don't see it. Maybe a swing blow, I don't know.
I understand what you're saying, indeed this use of the weapon against a static rider could be controversial for MP. What I'm sure of is that together we will reach a consensus.

Edit: This use of the "hooking" in mordhau (very similar to what was seen in the update video); I don't see it...

 

[Fietta]

I'm afraid that bracing as it seems right now might be a huge overnerf for cavalry, but I'll wait to try it before forming a conclusion.

Right, so that's completely incorrect; the bracing would barely be used because it'll be awfully slow. You'd have to rely on a cavalry charging at you in full force, from a distance that can easily be swerved. In infantry fights, you'll never have the chance to go into bracing position because you're fighting other infantry or receiving a lot of pressure, with cavalry coming around the corner quickly - the chances of you going into a brace position as the cavalry comes and goes is literally 0%, you'd actually be stupid to even try it. You're more than likely to get hit by other cavalry from behind, another infantry from the infantry fight, or an archer. Bracing would be objectively WORSE than using a normal spear and shield.

Tork, your opinion sometimes comes off from a casual perspective (as if all horses are stupid and will charge into a braced spear from 20 metres away), think about what actually happens in a skirmish match, not what happens in siege.

What could be an 'overnerf' are the 'hooked spears' (if they ever come to multiplayer), because that's just a normal spear which is capable of stopping cavalry (quick release speed) and instead of stopping the horse, you'd just hook the rider and pull them off, which is much easier and kinda makes heavy cavalry redundant.

 

[Aura (Zaffa)]

There should be no dismounting mechanics until only the cav classes can ride most horses. Im fine with horsemen being forced to the ground, but getting your horse yoinked by an archer who is now a horse archer sounds incredibly unfun.

This. I think hooking could be a fun mechanic, especially since it only works for certain spears. That said, it would only work if units were adjusted so only mounted units could ride cav, something the devs have already said they won't do.

I would however like to see how the hook mechanic would work so long as it required the use of a primary perk and was purchaseable only by shock units.

 

[Ruthven]

I think 'hooking' to dehorse cav should only happen when cav is stopped, but should be common for all spears. Would be an interesting way to punish stopped cav, and is more realistic.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Bracing would be objectively WORSE than using a normal spear and shield.

100% accurate and you have to consider that spear with shield is already very weak to cav. All we need is more spear damage to horses and rider. 60dmg fullspeed and 0dmg without speed is a joke when horses have 230 hp. Also the fact that the rider survives 3 stabs to the head while rearing is questionable.

What could be an 'overnerf' are the 'hooked spears' (if they ever come to multiplayer), because that's just a normal spear which is capable of stopping cavalry (quick release speed) and instead of stopping the horse, you'd just hook the rider and pull them off, which is much easier and kinda makes heavy cavalry redundant.

Hooked spears would be an actual INF buff, no question. But I do not manage to hit riders with spears since its 20-40 shorter than their lance. I always go for the horse and I think I would not change that even with that hook. However you could atleast punish inattentive cav.

 

[KSHMR]

Is this bracing going to be a mechanic like shield bashing?

Shield bashing at the moment has 0 purpose. It is literally useless and no point in using it.

If what Fietta said is true then nobody in competitive will ever use it anyways.

Still, it would be epic in shieldbattles and massive open field battles etc.

 

[Greedalicious]

However, I believe cavalry is gonna be useless in Captain mod now. I don't imagine the current AI doing well on horses after the considerable nerf

From what little I know about captains mode, I think the meta is 4 infantry (2h or peasant) and 2 cavalry, no heavy infantry at all, so it might at the very least spice up the meta there ?‍

 

[Alyss]

From what little I know about captains mode, I think the meta is 4 infantry (2h or peasant) and 2 cavalry, no heavy infantry at all, so it might at the very least spice up the meta there ?‍

In NA its 3 infs 2 archers one cav. or 4 infs 1 archer 1 cav for sturgia and 3 archers 1 inf 2 cavs for Khuzait. Cavalry is super bad because the AI just charge and stop in the melee.

 

[Mabons]

I think 'hooking' to dehorse cav should only happen when cav is stopped, but should be common for all spears. Would be an interesting way to punish stopped cav, and is more realistic.

Stopped and only from behind, it's the only way I can see it being fair. This way it's a two man job to yank someone off the horse, one to rear it, one to go around the back and pull him off. Also means that if some twat runs into a wall next to me and rears his horse(coming in the next patch) I can quickly yank him off.

As Terco said, we already can **** over cav from the front by rearing them, it's just inconsistent right now and hopefully the next patch sorts that out.

 

[Greedalicious]

Stopped and only from behind, it's the only way I can see it being fair. This way it's a two man job to yank someone off the horse, one to rear it, one to go around the back and pull him off. Also means that if some twat runs into a wall next to me and rears his horse(coming in the next patch) I can quickly yank him off.

As Terco said, we already can **** over cav from the front by rearing them, it's just inconsistent right now and hopefully the next patch sorts that out.

The way I see this happening is
1 Inf stops the horse
1 inf yeets him off the horse
Cavalry gets back up after maybe being hit once (or the hitbox is messy and attacks miss)
Cavalry takes the horse and runs off into the sunset.

 

[Mabons]

The way I see this happening is
1 Inf stops the horse
1 inf yeets him off the horse
Cavalry gets back up after maybe being hit once (or the hitbox is messy and attacks miss)
Cavalry takes the horse and runs off into the sunset.

I did think about the guy getting back on the horse, but we see in the video taking someone off the horse will do 50 dmg roughly, combine that with a stab from the front from the spearman, and a hit on the ground, and if he's still alive they have one more chance to hit him when he is mounting and can't block.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

The way I see this happening is
1 Inf stops the horse
1 inf yeets him off the horse
Cavalry gets back up after maybe being hit once (or the hitbox is messy and attacks miss)
Cavalry takes the horse and runs off into the sunset.

Important thing to remember is that if you hit a riderless horse in Bannerlord it runs off. If you hit the horse while the rider is on the ground he won’t be able to get back on it because it’ll be sprinting towards the other side of the map.

 

[Greedalicious]

I did think about the guy getting back on the horse, but we see in the video taking someone off the horse will do 50 dmg roughly, combine that with a stab from the front from the spearman, and a hit on the ground, and if he's still alive they have one more chance to hit him when he is mounting and can't block.

Depending on where it happens, as most fights tend to happen near walls, but thats true.

Important thing to remember is that if you hit a riderless horse in Bannerlord it runs off. If you hit the horse while the rider is on the ground he won’t be able to get back on it because it’ll be sprinting towards the other side of the map.

Even a kick on the horse will get it running, all depends on how fast they get back up I guess. Worst case scenario 1 of the infantry can take it and park it elsewhere.

 

[Derped@Warband]

I'm not really worried about spear bracing, as someone who mainly plays cav,if I'm charging and enemy with a spear and they're not doing anything else I'm already in trouble. Most of my kills and assists are on people in the middle of fights already. The perfect targets, distracted and busy. They wont be able to brace against me regardless. No real change there. Though I am looking forward to servers full of hookers... if it ever comes to MP?

 

[Vantasner]

It's good to discuss that stuff, but all we can do is predict whether it'll be great or completely useless. I for one am dying to simply try it and form my opinion based on an actual gameplay experience. Also let's not forget it's still ea, so new features will come, they'll be modified for the better (I hope). We can't really expect perfection on the first try, so I think that the feedback about this features will be really important; however, even if something is thrash/op, it doesn't mean it's unplayable/impossible to play against.
Anyway it's a good thing they're at least trying to make more features, which is great.