Historically accurate 12th century arms & armour... (pic heavy)

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Outremer

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The 12th century is my favorite period.  I have absolutely no artistic skill, but I'm decent when it comes to research.  I've collected a small group of pics depicting arms and armour as they existed in the 12th century.  I would love to help in any capacity to see this period accurately represented within the game.  The Angevin vs Capetian, Hohenstaufen vs Welfs & Papacy, the 2nd & 3rd Crusade, along with the baronic in-fighting in Outremer and similar squabbling within the Muslim world would all come together to make for a fantastic historically based mod.

I've collected these photos in the last half-hour to show how a western European solider (knights and sergeants represented) would have appeared between 1150 and 1200.  Hopefully someone will be inspired to begin modeling.

This pic is of a knight in 1170.  Note that his chainmail coif does not end under his chin, but rather continues with attached ventail up to his nose.  You see this everywhere in contemporary, in-situ art but you never see it done properly in the media..games or otherwise:


Again, the same thing.  This time from around 1160.  It would have been worn in this fashion, however, well into the 13th century:


The Germans often took it a step further, covering the entire face except for the eyes.  The first picture you will see an artist's accurate representation of a German knight around the end of the 12th century, and the second pic will show how this is supported archaeologically:




As you've probably noticed, the nasal-helm was still quite popular during this period.  The Germans again liked to experiment with this and produced other variants which were widely copied in parts of France and the Angevin Empire:



Around 1180, however, the early "Great helms" began to appear.  For our period the face-plated great helm was very popular among the richer knights.  It would later develop into the Sugarloaf helm, through various manifestations.  The following picture shows a rich knight circa 1280-1290 on the right, with a poorer knight using antiquated but still popular and effective gear on the left:



Note the difference in shield types also, in that above picture.  The one on the left was typically used by infantry, being longer.

Indeed that shield type was very popular for knights as well during the period of rebellion in the Angevin Empire:



And here you see what a sergeant may have looked like during the 1190s, but this type of shield was worn only by the elite 50 years earlier:


To repeat myself...ventail covering the mouth = historically accurate.  Knights would not have rode into battle with the lower portion of their face exposed. 





Its 4:30am and I need to sleep, so I'll finish up quickly with a picture of hilt-types typical of the mid-late 12th century:



Anyways, like I said, I hope this idea inspires some people to invest their incredible artistic talent into this period...



 
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Nice research work there. I'd love some more accurate gear but I think Native is set up to try any cater for everyone, so people who want "different" armours and looks for their character can do it. A proper, accurate mod would be awesome, especially the early Crusades. My favourite period alongside ancient Rome.
 

Outremer

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Properly done you already have a wide variety of armor types and traditions. You have Western Europeans (Angevins, Capetians, Spainish), Moorish Muslims, Italian Genoese (Merchants and excellent Crossbowmen), German (HRE) experiments with traditional armour & weapon types, Byzantine classical traditions w/"greek fire", Seljuk calvary, Egyptian Naft, Outremer's turcapoles, etc :smile:  Just briefly going over the geographical and historical context you can see the tremendous variety. 

Extend the map, or extend the period a little and you also have the Mongols.

I have detailed research on all these groups, so although I don't have the ability to get down and dirty with the modding itself (I guess I could learn), I can help a lot with core concepts and authenticity with arms and armour. 
 

pentagathus

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Try Highelfs video tutorials, they make moddeling and texturing surprisingly easy to learn (the basics anyway but these should be all you need for this.)
I'm (slowly) doing some stuff for the 14th century, new falchions and archer mail right now. Some of the stuff might not be that historical when I'm done but should be good enough.
 

Outremer

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I should be studying for an extremely difficult mid-term tomorrow...but....do you have a link? :smile:
 

Outremer

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That looks great, but...

:smile:

Shouldn't be skin on skin, dude.  Imagine that, wearing iron links against your face and trying to fight.  It didn't happen that way.  The ventail was, basically, a bigass chinstrap that had a lot of padding behind it (like the rest of the coif).  I applaud your effort, but it isn't quite right yet.  Consider how the ventail may have "swung" when detached, and apply that concept to the model when it is in hook. 

I very much doubt it was tied, that would take too long and I'm sure you wouldn't want it up for most of the time.  There was probably a latch of some sort...

Either way, its the best I've seen in a game yet (not withstanding the fishtail nasal..wtf?)


 

musketear

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How about this? Let me know what you think. This is my first shield but not my first model. And i don't have the best texture. So what do you think? And also let me know if you want the model. :mrgreen:
 

Merlkir

all this stuff has already been made by Raz for his Holy War mod. The ventails were a bit tricky to make so they don't clip with the faces, but it worked at last...
 

LordWilliams

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Outremer said:
The ventail was, basically, a bigass chinstrap that had a lot of padding behind it (like the rest of the coif).  I applaud your effort, but it isn't quite right yet.  Consider how the ventail may have "swung" when detached, and apply that concept to the model when it is in hook. 

Is there a good picture of this somewhere? most of the drawings/pictures I looked at to remodel this, showed mail very close to the face, with this peice hidden or missing.

Either way, its the best I've seen in a game yet (not withstanding the fishtail nasal..wtf?)

Thanks, and that is templar ispiration, The knights had those wierd bottom angles on thier nose piece. (or at least in some pictures ive looked at.) The UV mapping on this model isnt great and has to be redone, I would like to also add rivits to the helmate for more realism. I will make one with a more standard nosepeice when I redo it.
thanks for the comments though - I still have to figure out how to get it in game :grin: (new to modding)
 

Kutlahue

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Here's one of those teardrop kiteshield thingies, that i drew some inspirition from(well more a copy but not quite)
the back didn't exactly turn out as i wanted it to, but atleast it doesn't look absolutely terrible.

EDIT: i just remembered i used the picture that i got when i realised the mesh was intersecting for the back side, just dont pay attention to it, it's fixed now.
 

pentagathus

Baron
M&BWB
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Hey.
I've started a new mod and although it's a century out some of the early 12th century stuff would work pretty well in it. Like lord williams helmet. Is that made for a mod or anything?
 

Raz

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Nice to see a kindred spirit. :smile: The information you gathered on 12th century arms&armour seems to be fully correct. I can also tell you're interested in the Crusades by your account name. :smile:
I'll just take this opportunity to show you that atleast somebody is working on a representation of the 12th century (crusading) warfare.

And to everybody who has already heard of it: We just finished adding in archery, and I finally got around to adding in some decent materials and shaders for the Kniggits. The rest is pretty much untouched and ~2 years old though! So disregard the ugly padded cloth texture and quiver specularity! :razz:









And lastly this - everything's heavily WIP though, and we've yet to add in quick attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfdgxpeUguw

Higher quality rapidshare link: http://rapidshare.com/files/157423603/Film.wmv.html
 

italiano

Grandmaster Knight
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Love it so far Raz. Are you willing to release any details yet?

The rest is pretty much untouched and ~2 years old though
I stumbled across the old forum a while ago (when I came across the two video demos) - 2006!
 

Raz

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Update: Added another screenie to the previous post.

Zaro said:
Love it so far Raz. Are you willing to release any details yet?
Thanks! What would you like to know? Ask and thou shalt receive. :wink:
 

Merlkir

Raz, I believe I expressed the desire for having your babies before. Just so you know, that offer still stands. :grin:  amazing work man, I'm really looking forward to playing Deus Vult...
 

italiano

Grandmaster Knight
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What would you like to know? Ask and thou shalt receive.
Will it be linked by a storyline type of campaign or sandbox campaign (as in M&B)? If it's it's sandbox, will it feature diplomacy, politics, management etc?

For battles, I assume we'll control our troops and it appears it will be formation-based fighting? How large will the battles be?

It looks like you're using location based damage, will we lose use of limbs etc?

Are you thinking commercial, or is it something you guys are just doing and seeing how it pulls together?