Historical Mod: Second/Third Crusade

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zwaps

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Yes, we already do have a crusade mod, but it is not nearly accurate since the crusades took place in Jerusalem and European cities are far away :wink:

I would really like to see this as a mod and with the help of wikipedia I compiled two possible timelines. That would enable us to use historicaly correct names, units, orders etc.

First possibility: Second crusade
It startet 1145 and was a failure, however we could implement three kindoms or factions (or even more?). First, Jerusalem was a independend kingdom and should be present. Second, the German/France crusade and third the Seljuk Turks/Muslims that defeated the crusaders.
When the crusade finally arrived, Jerusalem was pretty much in peace with the surrounding countries. The Crusaders didn't care and attacked Damaskus, resulting in the fall of Jerusalem.

1. Jerusalem/Antioch - Neutral
75px-Kingdomofjerusalem.gif

Corresponds roughly to Wercheg and another city we would have to choose.
The city itself was Christian, but the country was pretty much mixed and Muslims and Jews were more or less accepted. Mixed units could be implemented here, maybe knights or their children from the first crusade that adapted muslim techniques and armor... etc.
Antioch - Wercheg, Jerusalem - Thir

2. Second Crusade - German and French army
Their mainbase would probably be Tripoli and their new holdings close to Damaskus (to give them some cities). The main units would be swadian like, except for full plate armor etc. They would have to occupy the south-east of the map except for Antioch (Wercheg) and Jerusalem (Thir).
If you look at the map - it fits perfectly!
The Crusaders have Tripoli (Zendar), Archa (Rivacheg), Darnith (Kudan) and Aintab (Curaw), Beaufort (Uxhal) and Tyre (Praven)
They would use knights and men at arms and Chivalric orders like Templars.


3. Turks/Armenians/Muslims
There were numerous Muslim states, but during the second crusade, it was mainly the Turks. They destroyed the German army except for a small part and the French, who came a little bit later, had a hard time getting to Jerusalem.
Damascus (Halmar), Baalbek (Reyvadin), Aleppo (Tulga), Homs (Veluca), Paneas (Suno) and Bostra (Jelkala), Aila (Sargoth) is somewhat neutral, too.
I don't know exactly what units the Turk used, but i'd imagined steppe bandit like scouts and also saracen.


Maps:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/crusaders2.jpg
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/kjlemmap.gif

Urls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Turks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Crusade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem

I will write about the second possibility tomorrow.
What are your thoughts so far?
 
Dont forget the Hospitalary order, wich aid in the earlier crusades, and lead teh defense of Jerusalem about 100 years after it was conquered. They moved to Rhodas and Cyprus (changing their name to Knights of Saint John), they were a plague for the Ottoman sultan as they raided their mercant ships from Tripoli and were a focus of crhistianity resistance. So, a Soliman (dont remember the number :oops: ) decided to wipe them out of Rodhas, they bowed before his might and made a pact: they would live Rodhas alive if they promised not to disturb the Ottomans any more...

Then, the King of Spain gave them Malta (by that time Spain still owned half of Western medterranean northern coasts) to be used as their main base, breaking their promise to Soliman. Many years after, another Soliman decided to punish them and leaded a failed assault on Malta.

I think would be easy to introduce them (or any other Knight order) since it was formed of "Logias" from many countries as Spain, France, Germany, Italy and even England; accepting young noble knights from those countries despite religious differences (German, English and even some French chevaliers were investigated about their ideas about recent religious revolutions, cause the order was catholic).
 
its not soliman, the ottoman ruler was Suleyman the Magnificent, or Suleyman the law giver (2 names for one guy)

as for the crusade mod, i'm all for it. It sounds really good. you just have to switch the grass texture to desert and you're good to go.
GL
 
I already personally made a Crusade mod before the new version came out, and based it around 1170s and 1180s during the time of Saladin and Richard the Lionheart, right before the Battle of Hattin. I turned the Swadians into the Crusaders and the Vaegirs into the Muslims. I didn't edit the Swadian troops very much except to add a few items from Hugemod to their equipment lists.

The Zendar troops were changed into Byzantine troops and given Byzantine equipment/names and made available at both Constantinople and Nicea.

Christian Cities:
1) Antioch
2) Jerusalem
3) Acre
4) Kerak
5) Tripoli
6) Nicea
7) Edessa

Zendar was turned into Constantinople

Muslim Cities:
1) Rum
2) Aleppo
3) Mosul
4) Alexandria
5) Cairo
6) Baghdad
7) Damascus

Christian Troops:
1) Monk (equipment changed to all bludgeoning weapons, hair changed to bowl cut, no hat, black robe, optional Wrapping Boots)
2) Christian Militia
3) Christian Footman
4) Order Footman
5) Templar Foot Knight
6) Christian Skirmisher
7) Christian Crossbowman
:cool: Order Crossbowman
9) Templar
10) Paladin

Muslim Troops (all skin changed to dark and hair changed to black):
1) Islamic Peasant (Head Cloth, Coarse Tunic required. Regular peasant weapons and optional Wrapping Boots)
2) Gazi (Head Cloth, Fur Hat, Nomad Cap, Coarse Tunic, Leather Vest, Nomad Boots, Nomad Shield, Spear, Scimitar, Military Fork, Hand Axe, Winged Mace)
3) Beduin Skirmisher (Coarse Tunic, Fur Hat, Nomad Cap, Steppe Cap, Nomad Boots, Spear, Scimitar, Hand Axe, Winged Mace, same missile equipment as Vaegir Skirmisher)
4) Desert Archer (Padded Leather, Leather Vest, Fur Hat, Nomad Cap, Steppe Cap, Skull Cap, Nasal Helmet, Nomad Boots, Leather Boots, Scimitar, Hand Axe, Spear, Military Fork, Nomad Sabre, same missile equipment as Vaegir Archer)
5) Mamluk Askari (Padded Leather, Leather Jerkin, Mail Hauberk, Leather Boots, Splinted Greaves, optional Leather Gloves, Spiked Helmet, Helmet With Neckguard, Battle Fork, Glaive, Scimitar, Nomad Sabre, Spiked Mace, same missile eqiupment as Vaegir Marksman)
6) Futuwwa (Padded Leather, Scale Male, Leather Boots, Hunter Boots, Steppe Cap, Nomad Cap, Segmented Helmet, Spiked Mace, Axe, Spear, Glaive, Scimitar, Nomad Sabre, Saddle Horse, Wooden Shield, Round Shield)
7) Janissary Infantry (forgot what I gave these guys since I never used them)
:cool: Dervish (also forgot what I gave these guys)
9) Mamluk Fari (Mail Hauberk, Leather Boots, Splinted Greaves, Mail Chausses, Helmet With Neckguard, Spiked Helmet, Steppe Cap, Lance, Battle Axe, Battle Fork, Glaive, Scimitar, Nomad Sabre, Spiked Mace, Battle Shield, Round Shield, Steppe Horse, Hunter)
10) Mamluk Khassaki (Black Guard Helmet from Hugemod, Spiked Helmet, Gold Mail Hauberk from Huge Mod, Lamellar Armor, Spiked Helmet, Mail Mittens, Mail Boots, Iron Greaves, Lance, Battle Axe, Battle Fork, Glaive, Scimitar, Nomad Sabre, Spiked Mace, Ornate Shield from Hugemod, Cataphract Horse from Hugemod)

Here are some realistic photos of Islamic warriors and their equipment:

http://www.tabula-rasa.info/JamesAdams/treasure_trove/saracen/saracen_warrior%2001.jpg

http://www.tabula-rasa.info/JamesAdams/treasure_trove/saracen/saracen02.htm

I changed the Dark Knights, Dark Hunters, and Black Khergit Raiders to all be Mongols. All of them had their eye shape changed to be more Asiatic, skin changed to Dark, and hair changed to Black. Black Khergit Raiders merely had their names changed to "Mongol Horsemen", their Party changed to "Mongol Raiders" and I left them alone. Dark Knight party changed to "Mongol War Party".

Mongol Troops
1) "Dark Knight" changed to Keshik (Guard Helmet, Lamellar Armor, Lance, Spear, Great Axe, Scimitar, Nomad Sabre, Battle Fork, Steel Shield, Mail Mittens, Iron Greaves, Steppe Horse, Warhorse)
2) "Dark Hunter" changed to Bagatur (Spear, Battle Axe, War Shield, Leather Jerkin, Iron Greaves, Mail Boots, Guard Helmet, Warhorse, Steppe Horse, Nomad Sabre, Steel Shield, Round Shield, Battle Fork)

Byzantine Troops Available at Constantinople and Nicea:
1) Greek Peasant (unchanged)
2) Greek Militia (unchanged from Watchman)
3) Hoplitai (Kettle Helmet, Padded Armor, Scale Armor, Javelin, Crossbow, Ashwood Pike, Scimitar, Wooden Shield, Leather Boots)
4) Mercenary Horseman (unchanged from Caravan Guard)
5) Varangian Guard (sort of a combination of Sea Raider and Vaegir Knight)
6) Kataphraktoi (Cataphract Horse from Hugemod, Lamellar Armor, Coat of Plates, Mail Mittens, Guard Helmet, Black Helmet, Iron Greaves, Blue Shield from Hugemod, Lance, Doublesided Lance, Morningstar)

I felt that many of the weapons in M&B were not being used and were quite unfairly neglected so I changed around some of the abilities of them a bit without editing their speeds, damage, or range.

Following Weapons Given the "Balanced" Modifier:
All Bows, Scythe, Military Fork, Battle Fork, Boar Spear, Spear, All Lances, All Pikes, Polehammer, Poleaxe, Glaive, All Staffs.

Following Weapons Given the "Heavy" Modifier:
Poleaxe, Polehammer

Following Weapons Given the ability to slash left and right from horseback:
Glaive, Poleaxe, Polehammer, All Staffs

I'll be willing to do a lot of the work on this mod considering that I already completed my own Crusade mod previously that was far more historically accurate and more detailed than the one Jackychan made (no offense). I just never bothered to release it to the general public because I didn't get around to finishing up all the Islamic merchants in the various towns.

I did, however, change all the names and looks of the leaders of the various towns, like instead of King Harlaus he was Sultan Saladin, there was King Baldwin, Richard the Lionheart, Guy of Lusignan, etc. etc. I still have their names written down somewhere and what city they controlled.

Anyone else interested in helping me out a little bit?
 
This was my second idea, the third crusade.
However, I'd really like to keep it correct, even looking at the map.

Constantinopel would have to be to the very north, not Zendar, and Edessa was captured by the Muslims for example even before the second crusade began.

For the third crusade there are great battle reports on wikipedia showing something about tactics. The Muslims would attach Richards flanks, which were hold by Hospitallers and Templars. Those would then finally charge and destroyed the Muslims, but the idea was to wore them out.
Great thing about the third crusade was the all out war with Saladin and many skirmishes and battles.
However, we would not have Jerusalem as a faction, which is what I really like about the idea.
It's not too hard to implement in M&B and I think it would be a great addition to have a third faction.
Also, all those cities under Crusader control were actually captured by Saladin after the second crusade, so we would have a hard time giving the Crusaders equal amounts of cities.

I'd go for second crusade.
 
GeralDuvald said
its not soliman, the ottoman ruler was Suleyman the Magnificent, or Suleyman the law giver (2 names for one guy)

as for the crusade mod, i'm all for it. It sounds really good. you just have to switch the grass texture to desert and you're good to go.
GL

Oh, sorry, it was a translating mistake, cause in my mothern language, Suleyman is written as "Soliman". But I think that not all thye map should have a desert texture; some parts (as example if you include Constantinople) would have grass texture rather than desert one.
 
If you take the ocean as it is, then you don't really need to change the map at all, only the factions.
I mean, Jerusalem, Antioch etc. are all perfect. The mountains in the north are there, too.
 
I really envy all you that have so vast knowledge of medieval history. I've always been very interested on the subject, but I don't know where to start studying.
 
The mod doesn't have to be completely set in one specific year. It could be set before Saladin captured all those cities but while he was still alive and nominally the leader of the Muslims. The Kingdom of Jerusalem still existed under Baldwin until Saladin captured it. The entire mod doesn't have to play out during just one single year on the time-line either, and there are plenty of other cities you can throw into the mix if you don't like the current one such as Ascalon, Tyre, Kirkuk, Rhodes (no idea how to do that until map editor and boats work), etc. Many of these cities constantly changed hands during that time period anyways.

The reason I chose Constantinople as Zendar is because it was as neutral as you could really get since sometimes it fought against the Crusaders as well as the Muslims. Geography doesn't really play a big role into where the cities are placed until we get the map editor so I said "F*ck it, even though it's a long ways away, this city will be Constantinople".

We should go for historical accuracy but we don't want it to be at the expense of having fun. Even though there were various Christian Kingdoms set up who were ruled by different kings, and the same situation with Muslims, they still united together to fight against each other and I think this represents the whole "Christian versus Muslim" thing.

Like I said, my mod was set in the 1170s-1180s.

Also, you didn't necessarily have Mongol raiding parties running around the Holy Land at the time either, but what else are the Black Khergits and Dark Knights supposed to represent?

I also changed the Vaegir (Muslim) Deserters to "Hashishin", kept the Swadian Deserters as "Christian Deserters", changed the Sea Raiders to "Rus/Variag Raiders", but never quite figured out what to do with River Pirates, Mountain Bandits, or Forest Bandits. I suppose one of them could be changed to Desert/Beduin Bandits and be Islamic looking. I didn't bother changing the Steppe Bandits because the Circassians, Alans, Pechenegs, Kazhars, Cumans, and other Turkic bandits fit the bill quite nicely. In fact, many of the Mamluks were made up of these steppe peoples who were sold as slaves to the Arabs by the Mongols.

My point is, this mod should be very historically accurate, but it should also be very fun, enjoyable, and interesting.
 
Go to wikipedia and get yourself a worldmap. After two hours you know everything there is to know. Just start from the century tables upwards.
It's a really fascinating topic!


Edit:
Yeah I will have to look into switching Zendar with a northern city.
I agree that we can not change the map, but if we manage to link Zendar to a different city and have it become Constantinople, there isn't that much we need to change.
The ocean would be the sea there, Egypt would be in the South, Constantinople in the North somewhere and Jerusalem at Thir. Tripolis is perfect at Zendar... we don't need to change anything!

I would, however, have the orders (Hospitallers, Templars) at different cities so we get some kind of variety (you can only recruit those at Antioch for example etc).
Then, I would definitly make some bandits Templars, some Hospitallers and then some Muslims. It takes a second to change the factions so that Templars raid only Muslims and so on. We would have to look into the triggers and change the dialogs and consequences, but nevertheless it should be possible.

But we should not do it on 702. Seriously, let's start planning together for units, cities and stuff, but wait for a more stable version and mod tools. Everything else is just going to suck.

I will start making a map and then look into the Crusaders units.
 
The reason I wasn't really looking for more than 2 factions is because there aren't really enough cities to go around yet, it would be a lot more work, and it would screw up a lot of the missions given to you by leaders where you have to recruit a certain number of specific soldiers or bring them a certain number of specific enemy prisoners.

If you wanted to have it be more than 2 factions and be as historically realistic as possible, you'd have to have:

1) Tuetonic Knights
2) Byzantine Empire
3) Seljuk Turks
4) Mamluks/Fatamids
5) Templar Knights
6) Hospitaller Knights

And even then those groups feuded amongst themselves and had different leadership quite often. The one constant between them all is that the Christians fought against the Muslims. You could have more of the Christian troop types have Order names like maybe "Tuetonic Crossbowmen" or "Hospitaller Man-At-Arms" if you want to be more inclusive of the different Crusading orders.
 
Ok, maybe I could give you a little bit info about Hospitalary order; but about Templars I´m only well informed around Southern France, Portugal and Spain in the time they were going to be disolved by the Pope and set as heretic. After that, they were jailed or executed, some manged to get free, altought in Portugal and Spain many of them still reamined camouflaged in other orders.

Also, I think I can found some info about Hospitalary ranks, maybe both for soldiers and noblemen.
 
The funny thing is that I've done it before with the old version but never hosted it or released it to the mod community before .700 came out.
 
Well I can pretty much guarantee you that 702 is not here to stay, so let's wait with this.

About having the Orders as an own faction: I am not for that. As you suggested, we will have different units and unit trees for the different Orders.
I don't see so much problems with mission tasks, because the hard part is always to raise those units, not to get them. If you have to travel to Antioch to get Teutonic Footmen (or whatever) then do it.

About Jerusalem beeing an own faction or neutral - I think the opportunity to make this a little different than other mods is great. We already have one neutral faction in game. We only would have to change the triggers that change diplomacy and the faction txt is easy to understand and change.

I see that it would be easier to make a two faction war story, but let's be creative.
 
Hmm, about Jerusalem... I´d prefer to put it attached to a faction, cause it was conquered and reconquered some times along crusades. Even when was an "independent kingdom" it allied with other great powers of the place. The problem is that in that way it needs a code to allow cities to change factions (it could be ciclic after a certain amount of time, or by specific events as combats, missions...).
 
The problem with making multiple factions is that the Crusaders and the Arab states were all pretty much unified when it came to warfare (which is what Mount & Blade is all about) and all came to each others' defense during battles and times of war. Although Crusaders tended to massacre the populations of cities that were both Christian and Muslim, I cannot recall many incidents whereby they ever attacked each other. All the knightly orders, from the Hospitallers to the Tuetons to the Templars fought side-by-side. The Kingdom of Jerusalem was closely related to the other Crusader Kingdoms through both diplomacy and warfare, and separating the Kingdom of Jerusalem from the other Crusader Kingdoms would be like separating King Louis II from his various vassal lords. Remember, this was feudalism we're talking about, it was always a loose confederation of different nobles and vassals aiding one another for mutual benefit.

What we can do is make Jerusalem the capitol city of the Crusader States and King Baldwin it's nominal leader with all the other kings and counts as his vassals for purposes of gameplay.

If you really want 3 or more factions, the Byzantine Empire or the Seljuk Turks would make far better candidates for new factions than trying to divide up the Crusader Kingdoms. The Seljuk Turks attacked both Crusaders and Mamluks alike, and the Byzantine Empire was eventually sacked by Crusading armies just a short few decades after the fall of Jerusalem. There is already a Khergit faction programmed into the game and they can easily be modified to be the Seljuk Turks.

If we download the Mag7 mod when it becomes compatible again we can change the Bandit faction into the Turks easily as well as reap all the benefits from the mod's features, with their permission and grace of course.
 
The problem with making multiple factions is that the Crusaders and the Arab states were all pretty much unified when it came to warfare (which is what Mount & Blade is all about) and all came to each others' defense during battles and times of war. Although Crusaders tended to massacre the populations of cities that were both Christian and Muslim, I cannot recall many incidents whereby they ever attacked each other. All the knightly orders, from the Hospitallers to the Tuetons to the Templars fought side-by-side. The Kingdom of Jerusalem was closely related to the other Crusader Kingdoms through both diplomacy and warfare, and separating the Kingdom of Jerusalem from the other Crusader Kingdoms would be like separating King Louis II from his various vassal lords. Remember, this was feudalism we're talking about, it was always a loose confederation of different nobles and vassals aiding one another for mutual benefit.

I know, but I said that to represent the Jerusalem change of hands along the Crusades.
 
Well to change factions might not be possible (yet) triggerwise.

I just thought that the faction Jerusalem would be insanely cool. Now, what we could do is put every Crusader kingdom as a faction.
It would be like Swadia and Swadian Prison Train (which is its own faction). When you attack one, you get a diplomatic malus on both.

I thought Saladin united with the Seiljak Turks, because they were in that area, but the Byzanthene empire sounds good, too.
It would give the player a better choice on who he wants to belong.
And if we get mod tools and a storyline in M&B (with some outcome triggers) we can implement a changeable storyline depending on who the player fight for.

This is why I would shoot for second crusade. You can have many factions, including crusaders, and not only Crusaders/Muslims, for that we might as well use the existing Crusade mod :wink:
 
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