Historical heraldry

[Skandinav]

Good day,

Heraldry emphasizes the political and social structures of the period that this mod attempts to portray and despite it not being one of the declared goals of the mod there is no doubt that having real, historical heraldry would benefit the overall atmosphere greatly.

So while othr has done a great job in finding as many coat of arms as he has, many of them are not entirely historically accurate, or very modernized, and I've started this thread to try to collect as much accurate information as possible about contemporary heraldry of the various noble families included in the mod. This is not at all something I can claim to know much about, however, so I am hoping for inputs from the rest of you.

Factional coat of arms ( usually the coat of arms of the ruling family ) holds priority, of course, and we should remember that there is no "real" version of any of these, many versions co-existed historically ( as is typical of heraldry, taking form after circumstances and fashion ), and many have since been made. The best we can do is find one from as close to the mod's starting date as possible.

For example the Danish coat of arms ( more or less ) as it appears in the mod on shields :

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And on surcoats :

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These versions are both variants of the 1819 reform, and the shield version is likely from our century.

I would suggest perhaps using the much older version from the Armorial Gelre :

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The same goes for example for the Norwegian coat-of-arms ( here from in-game shields and banners ) :

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This version is also from our century ( 1937 I think ), and it would be nice to find a version from before 1280 ( before the axe and the crown was added ), if at all possible.


If any of you have knowledge of the some of the ruling families featured in the mod, and wish to help in finding the most accurate heraldry for these, I can, as a start, recommend the source Armorial Gelre, a dutch Roll of Arms from the 14th century ( you can find an overview and illustrations of all the coat-of-arms here http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Gelre/Index_General.htm#S ).

Also, if any can find an online version of the Hyghalmen Roll, it might prove valuable for use with German/Nordic heraldry ( which is a style of its own ).

 

[othr]

I can't find a good quality image of the earlier type for either, and unfortunately, I'm not able to draw those myself.  I'd definitely change those if I had access to better images.

 

[Amundr]

Here's some links to some norwegian heraldry pages.
http://heraldikk.blogspot.com/
http://wangensteen.net/heraldikk.html

I couldnt find any picture of the pre 1280 norwegian coat of arms but we know its a golden lion rampant on a red background.
So i modified this shield to look like that.

This is the result.

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Loads of nice shields here btw.
Edit:
This one for denmark perhaps ?

 

[Urlik]

are any of these any use

just click on the links to get the images

 

[othr]

Sure they are Ulrik.

Thanks for those, none of my searches turned up that Danish coa but sure did turn up lots of dead links.

 

[Skandinav]

I forgot to add that the Armorial Gelre, though dutch, contains families from all over Western ( and parts of Northern ) Europe.

@Amundr, good job on the lion, could you perhaps edit one of the older ( preferrably medieval ) versions in the same way ?

Also a very fine version of the three Danish lions there, and some nice heraldry in that link Urlik, but, and please correct me if I am wrong, none of it looks as if from the Middle-Ages but rather as modernized versions of medieval counterparts ( some of those in your link might be Urlik, but I cannot seem to find a source ) ? Would be optimal if we could find and use primary sources mainly, as most heraldry considered "medieval" are in fact 17th-19th century versions over the same heraldic composition.

The coat of arms of Pomerania and the three Scandinavian kingdoms on a ship flag from the 1420s ( Frederiksborg Slotsmuseum ) :

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What are the prerequisites for the compliance of heraldry btw. does it need to have a clear background for easy implementation into the mod, for example ?

 

[othr]

Crisp with good contrast is the best.  Hand drawn would be nice.  Scans or photos have too much dirt on them to just paste them on top of something.

Back then all that stuff was hand drawn with no aids of any kinds so if you have any drawing skills, draw a big image of that, scan it, high res, and that would be really, really nice.  Unless you have a computer drawing pad and can do it that way that would also be excellent.

Wikipedia has decent images but they don't look very medieval, too perfect.  Oh yeah the colours in that banner above, you can't tell what they really were, time put its mark on them.  I can only guess that they were more blue/red/yellow than they are now.

Yeah, I just tried to recreate the detail on that gryphon and failed miserably, not enough artistic sense.

 

[Urlik]

this is a good site for historical heraldry

a few right clicks to save the pix and some copy and pasting should help get those coats of arms on the road to completion

 

[Amundr]

@Amundr, good job on the lion, could you perhaps edit one of the older ( preferrably medieval ) versions in the same way ?

Also a very fine version of the three Danish lions there, and some nice heraldry in that link Urlik, but, and please correct me if I am wrong, none of it looks as if from the Middle-Ages but rather as modernized versions of medieval counterparts ( some of those in your link might be Urlik, but I cannot seem to find a source ) ? Would be optimal if we could find and use primary sources mainly, as most heraldry considered "medieval" are in fact 17th-19th century versions over the same heraldic composition.

Well i chose that one becouse it is the most historical correct i could find.
We know it had that exact tail for instance.
I used this as a source when choosing which one to use.

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What do you mean by more medieval versions ?
Because what i think you mean are mostly younger versions that have better sources but are probably not correct for this era.

 

[Urlik]

What do you mean by more medieval versions ?
Because what i think you mean are mostly younger versions that have better sources but are probably not correct for this era.

I think he means like this

or this

so the coat of arms would look more like this

 

[Amundr]

Those look like more from the 1400's and later imho.
Too much detail in the mane.

 

[Amundr]

Did a version of the danish coat of arms from the Armorial Gelre.

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Based mostly on this.
With head from this.
And tail from this.

 

[Skandinav]

Well i chose that one becouse it is the most historical correct i could find.
We know it had that exact tail for instance.
I used this as a source when choosing which one to use.

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What do you mean by more medieval versions ?
Because what i think you mean are mostly younger versions that have better sources but are probably not correct for this era.

Sorry for the late reply, Amundr, I've been very busy.

Saying more medieval I did mean in the more organic, sketchy style, with a very distinct perspective, as on the 15th century sources I've posted above ( and those of the 13th century below ).
To me they look older than the more rigidly angular style that is ( still ) used today, begun about the 15th century ( I've seen it used as early as 1460 in Christian the 1st's coat of arms on a chalk painting in Helligtrekongers kapel, see below ), a style which I think, to some degree ( perhaps not much ), your modified Norwegian lion is also reminiscent of.

I didn't know of the plate you based it on, which year is that from ? I cannot really distinguish many details by looking at it though, as it is all very blurred. Did you use the secondary source based on it to make it ?

So to your question, yes, I think it would be more accurate to have better sourced coat of arms that are from the 14th century, than 15-16th century and modern versions, even if they are based on the same heraldic principles, for example in your fine version of the three Danish lions, with correct tail and heads etc. But of course only if we can't find any usable contemporary primary sources, that is. Luckily, though, we have quite a few of such, but all of them requires that we copy and redraw them before applying them to the mod.

What I've seen from 12th and 13th century coat of arms it is often simplistic, mere symbols and such ( see as an example the knight in Balishols church in Norway, or the knight in the church at Södra Råda ), sometimes just an outline.
But many times ( and more often than not the case of higher nobility ) they are pretty rich on detail, as for example on a surviving coin with the seal of Håkon Håkonsson ( sorry cannot seem to find any pictures online, might just scan it if necessary ).

Here are a few better 13th century examples of the Norwegian lion ( notice for example the lying lion on the Norwegian seals from before 1300 ) :

The seal of duke Skule ( 1225 ) :

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The seal of king Eirik Magnusson ( 1289 ) :

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The seal of king Håkon ( 1305 ) :

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And some Danish ones :

Seal of Knud the 6th ( 1190 ) :

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Seal of Erik Abelsen ( 1272 ) :

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Seal of Valdemar Atterdag ( 1345 ) :

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Junker Christoffer's tomb ( 1360 ) :

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Seal of Christian the 1st ( 1460 ) :

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[Amundr]

Saying more medieval I did mean in the more organic, sketchy style, with a very distinct perspective, as on the 14th century sources I've posted above ( and those of the 13th century below ).
To me they look older than the more rigidly angular style that is ( still ) used today, begun about the 15th century ( I've seen it used as early as 1460 in Christian the 1st's coat of arms on a chalk painting in Helligtrekongers kapel, see below ), a style which I think, to some degree ( perhaps not much ), your modified Norwegian lion is also reminiscent of.

I still thinks its very strange to add shadow and mane detail when using a seal on a shield, id have thought you painted on something alittle more basic.
Most of the examples we have is either from seals or from coins and both have depth.
[quote author=Skandinav]
I didn't know of the plate you based it on, which year is that from ? I cannot really distinguish many details by looking at it though, as it is all very blurred. Did you use the secondary source based on it to make it ?
[/quote]
Its the rubbing(i think) of the backside of the seal of Håkon Magnusson used 1286-1288.
Being the only example i could find of the lion without crown and axe on a seal of its own.(duke Skule's isnt a lion rampant and every other ive seen have only a seal of the knight with a tiny shield with a squeezed in lion )
[quote author=Skandinav]
for example on a surviving coin with the seal of Håkon Håkonsson ( sorry cannot seem to find any pictures online, might just scan it if necessary ).
[/quote]
Please do.

Also please have a look through this for lions you feel fit better.
Is the danish seal i made satisfactory or is there something you'd like me to change ?

 

[Skandinav]

I still thinks its very strange to add shadow and mane detail when using a seal on a shield, id have thought you painted on something alittle more basic.
Most of the examples we have is either from seals or from coins and both have depth.

The ship flag I've posted a picture of in one of my above posts shows quite a lot of detail. But you might be right about shields, though when I think of the artistic level of for example mediterranean shields from ancient times I do have my doubts. I don't have time to find and check sources for these right now, regrettably. But of course we do not only need coat of arms on shields but on banners aswell, and here details and depth were de facto used.

Why do you want a rampant lion, if I may ask, as many early versions were lying ? I can agree though that it looks somewhat better, but I also know of the symbol this was for Norwegian nationalism in the early 19th century so I am just curious.

In regards to the Danish coat of arms you've made I respect your skill and the work that has went into making them but I must admit I don't like the faces much. The eyes especially are of the kind I've always disliked, adding both a female and stupid look to them in my opinion.

For modern takes on old heraldic principles I think I prefer the one you posted in your first post in this thread, and which I think kuauik also used for his Danish surcoats.

But I would still prefer, if possible, to see coat of arms taken directly from contemporary primary sources for all factions in the mod.

 

[Amundr]

Why do you want a rampant lion, if I may ask, as many early versions were lying ? I can agree though that it looks somewhat better, but I also know of the symbol this was for Norwegian nationalism in the early 19th century so I am just curious.

We know from written sources that it was a yellow rampant lion on a red field.
Actually the coa havent changed much since they added the axe and crown in 1279, and adding the axe and crown was the only change made then.
Duke skule's cant be used since he werent king and was in opposition to the king.
The other pre 1300 image you posted have the correct coa on the knight's shield a lion rampant but it has a crown and axe.
[quote author=Skandinav]
In regards to the Danish coat of arms you've made I respect your skill and the work that has went into making them but I must admit I don't like the faces much. The eyes especially are of the kind I've always disliked, adding both a female and stupid look to them in my opinion.
[/quote]
I chose those faces becouse they were the most "medieval" from my understanding of your use.
Is this one better ?
[quote author=Skandinav]
But I would still prefer, if possible, to see coat of arms taken directly from contemporary primary sources for all factions in the mod.
[/quote]
I dont think this is feasible, my drawing skills are subpar at best and we would need better quality images of the sources if you dont want any artists touch on them.
Also we have no contemporary pictorial source for norway, only litterary and it changes not long after so we cant use most of the ones after 1279 since allmost all of them uses the axe and crown.
Which danish source image would you prefer used ? they change so much so i dunno what you would prefer.
Both the 1190 and the 1272 ones fit well with the Armorial Gelre and the version i made, i can change that one to your tastes though but i would need svg images with the features you would like and i could cobble it together.

 

[Amundr]

Did a version with a different set of eyes.
Can be modified some more if they are not to your liking.

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Edit: Fixed some lopsided eyes.

 

[Skandinav]

Looks very nice, Amundr, but I also like the current one which you posted earlier with the razz-looking lions. I am also not sure if there is any rule as to the tail; some of the early ( before 1300 ) seals I've posted show no "spikes", or whatever these are called, it seems a 14th and 15th century thing, but then again I've also seen 15th and 16th century lions with normal, straight tails so it might just be optional.

Concerning the Norwegian lion then I was under the impression that it was shown both lying and standing until the Dano-Norwegian union. Then during the union only lying and after it only standing which was then propagandized as a symbol of Norwegian autonomy ( though the lying lion never was a symbol of the opposite ).

Here is the scan of Håkon Håkonsson's seal I spoke of :

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We can't really see much of the coat of arms on the shield but it appears to feature some details such as shadows and depth effect.


Btw. did you notice this one in the Armorial Gelre ( http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Gelre/F66v.htm ) :

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[Amundr]

Looks very nice, Amundr, but I also like the current one which you posted earlier with the razz-looking lions. I am also not sure if there is any rule as to the tail; some of the early ( before 1300 ) seals I've posted show no "spikes", or whatever these are called, it seems a 14th and 15th century thing, but then again I've also seen 15th and 16th century lions with normal, straight tails so it might just be optional.

I might take a look at it tomorrow.
If you see any bodyparts you like better than others be sure to tell me.

Btw. did you notice this one in the Armorial Gelre ( http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Gelre/F66v.htm ) :

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Interesting, though still too late to be without an axe or crown.
Can you find the original page alá the danish one you posted ?
It looks like a modern rendering to me.
Edit:
Here it is.

 

[Aule_the_creator]

and, for the third time, I'm gonna post this link.

http://www.briantimms.net/rolls_of_arms/wijnbergen/introduction.htm

the wijnbergen armorial, written 1265-1270, and even includes an oddity, the seal of the king of iceland (I.E. king of norway in his capacity as the king of iceland), which has the axe (showing that it's added after the change, but it's drawn on the back of one of the pages). It's got france, germany, etc etc, and the last section is called "Roi", and it's got lots of royal coats of arms from the period.