Dabos37
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Thanks for the fast answer.
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High tier equipment as a goal for end game
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Sergeant Knight at Arms
Thanks for the fast answer.
What makes you question your belief in the Soon™?
.....not decided yet....further testing and polish........it will take some time..............................We're still considering................................. but time table is still not certain.
Like blinding flashes of light...?
+1 for the humour
; however I always prayed to Hope™
... faith in Soon™ is paganism to me
.Nalgasucia507
Squire
Makes me sad to know you are a heretic Terco. Alas, noone can be perfect but Soon(tm) itself.+1 for the humour
... faith in Soon™ is paganism to me
Lusitani 5th Empire
Armor and protective gear is more expensive by nature, specially the good ones, weapons are generally cheaper unless they are of mass destruction.
Prices (and everything) need to be justified, they need to grounded into proper game mechanics, and it's not really that complicated.
My opinion is that there should be an established connection between cost to produce and cost for the buyer. Cost to produce should take into account the availability and price of necessary materials, tools, time, expertise... E.g.: Better, stronger, rarer steel, of higher price + man with tools and expertise to work with it = better stats = higher cost; The same should happen for siege weapons, they should be expensive to build, they require tons of materials, man power and expertise...
People here a talking about locking items according to level as an alternative/increment to fix prices ... artificial restriction of gear and gameplay is not a game feature that should be encouraged (devs might be reading and they instantly go for the quick fix), other games are moving in the opposite direction, assassins creed for example. Some high tier weapons, armor... could be considered items of prestige and require other stuff besides money. E.g: influence; special access to even smell the gear (royal armory); connection and good relations with nobles; special favors to the blacksmith = you could smell and buy on item even though you don't have the prestige to own it...
The bigger problem that I don't see discussion on is that there is no cost of ownership. A simplified maintenance mechanic could be introduced. Low tier items require less money, materials, expertise to maintain and as the tier goes up maintenance price increases.
The curve could look something like this: (yy- price; xx- tier)
Items would slightly go down in stats and value until items are fixed. Items would have durability and get damaged over time and when used. Maintenance could be done by one more party members with expertise, blacksmiths or similar. It could be automatic and/or manual. It's mostly UI work, I don't think it would require that much testing, at the end of the day if you drop the price of initial cost but have a more or less fixed ownership cost you would end up more or less at the same level and it's mostly a mechanic for the player, bots could use a lighter version of this.
This would also solve part of the problem of money accumulation at mid and late end game, even more if the concept of "cost of ownership" is applied in other circumstances.
You know I like to go against the tide
. Let's stay focused on the topic of the thread or we're going to get derailed... Thank you for your post and suggestions.Armor and protective gear is more expensive by nature, specially the good ones, weapons are generally cheaper unless they are of mass destruction.
Prices (and everything) need to be justified, they need to grounded into proper game mechanics, and it's not really that complicated.
My opinion is that there should be an established connection between cost to produce and cost for the buyer. Cost to produce should take into account the availability and price of necessary materials, tools, time, expertise... E.g.: Better, stronger, rarer steel, of higher price + man with tools and expertise to work with it = better stats = higher cost; The same should happen for siege weapons, they should be expensive to build, they require tons of materials, man power and expertise...
People here a talking about locking items according to level as an alternative/increment to fix prices ... artificial restriction of gear and gameplay is not a game feature that should be encouraged (devs might be reading and they instantly go for the quick fix), other games are moving in the opposite direction, assassins creed for example. Some high tier weapons, armor... could be considered items of prestige and require other stuff besides money. E.g: influence; special access to even smell the gear (royal armory); connection and good relations with nobles; special favors to the blacksmith = you could smell and buy on item even though you don't have the prestige to own it...
The bigger problem that I don't see discussion on is that there is no cost of ownership. A simplified maintenance mechanic could be introduced. Low tier items require less money, materials, expertise to maintain and as the tier goes up maintenance price increases.
The curve could look something like this: (yy- price; xx- tier)
Items would slightly go down in stats and value until items are fixed. Items would have durability and get damaged over time and when used. Maintenance could be done by one more party members with expertise, blacksmiths or similar. It could be automatic and/or manual. It's mostly UI work, I don't think it would require that much testing, at the end of the day if you drop the price of initial cost but have a more or less fixed ownership cost you would end up more or less at the same level and it's mostly a mechanic for the player, bots could use a lighter version of this.
This would also solve part of the problem of money accumulation at mid and late end game, even more if the concept of "cost of ownership" is applied in other circumstances.
The problem with a maintenance mechanic is that it introduces new information which required to be communicated to the player. Before delving into that let me draw some pictures of what is impossible. (The opinions are of my own and subject the change of course.)
Firstly I do not believe a maintenance mechanic who requires player action to repair "deteriorated" items does not really have a place in the game(i.e. repairing items one by one by some resource through going to a smith). This introduces far too much micromanagement and does not really fit the perspective of the character we are playing.
The idea of having a maintenance cost of items that are used makes sense in a way (and them being automatically kept shiny through recurring maintenance cost also easy. However, when the price is not paid the weird stuff starts to ensue.
I will think about this idea further, yet one thing that immediately comes to my mind is the discrepancy between the maintenance costs and the troop wages. If we want the items to be meaningfully cost something, then there will unintuitive relations between the maintenance cost of armor and the wage of the troop with a similar armor.
Another issue that came up is this, suppose I do not enter combat, do I still have to pay for maintenance? If this is the case this will create a bad meta-game of equipping before combat and unequipping after combat. If this is not the case, then it will still not solve the problem because we can not make meaningful repair costs for entering combat (entering combat while common, is often rarer than daily costs)
Also, for example, suppose I was not able to pay and my items deteriorated after the combat. When I have the money will it be automatically deducted? Or do I have to go to a smith now (or click a button)?
I know that all of them have some solution or another, but solutions that do not introduce unnecessary complexity (not the mechanical complexity, but a flow-breaking complexity), I am not sure.
Nevertheless, your idea of having maintenance cost is a good idea though probably we will address the item cost issue in a more simplistic manner.
As always thank you for your feedback.
MAAAAAAAAAAAAN, can we please make armor REDUCE DAMAGE MORE GOODER before we delve into trying to make it deteriorate or have upkeeps, and 10X more so for troops, as it is it's probably the smarter move too just use mostly t3 troops because the performance and defense of higher tier troops is not at all proportionate to their cost.
One concern about these kinds of 'balancing' methods is that it only punishes the players who are already having a hard time maintaining a financial balance (and there are plenty) and pushes them to do boring stuff like smithing javelins (which makes the game seem bad), meanwhile it doesn't even phase players who already have figured out how to flush the AI's head in the toilet and have piles of money they can never spend by like day 20.
One concern about these kinds of 'balancing' methods is that it only punishes the players who are already having a hard time maintaining a financial balance (and there are plenty) and pushes them to do boring stuff like smithing javelins (which makes the game seem bad), meanwhile it doesn't even phase players who already have figured out how to flush the AI's head in the toilet and have piles of money they can never spend by like day 20.
Yeah I think the only way to do it would be just a daily cost as if the player is automatically doing daily maintenance on their gear (on everyone's gear?) regardless of use. If you wanted to go this route, you might have things such as the smithing skill (or perks) or even a party member's role (blacksmith? Armorer?) that reduces the cost. I've also liked the idea of more cost for ranged units and food consumption for mounted units to simulate having to re-supply arrows and feed horses. I admit though, these don't really add anything to the game and will only slightly annoy players who have money balance issues.
Dabos37
Sergeant Knight at Arms
The repair suggestion is nice and could help but to be honest, it would probably require some effort which I personally would prefer to be invested in other game areas (like making late game more fun).
Concerning armor cost, I just would like to see armors having a more coherent cost, and be accessible for the player in the same way than it happens in Warband. Being able to get tons of T5 units with the best possible armor in the first couple of days, while I am just able to get a mediocre armor, makes the game feel non immersive at all.
My personal advice is to just adjust the equipment to have a more coherent prices without messing around it too much, and put most of the effort and team’s resources into making the late game more fun which is currently just abound conquering the world (boring IMO). Adjusting the formula for decreasing top gear armor (while low and mid tier gear remain similar), does not look like a too complicated task (maybe I am wrong and it does).
Concerning armor cost, I just would like to see armors having a more coherent cost, and be accessible for the player in the same way than it happens in Warband. Being able to get tons of T5 units with the best possible armor in the first couple of days, while I am just able to get a mediocre armor, makes the game feel non immersive at all.
My personal advice is to just adjust the equipment to have a more coherent prices without messing around it too much, and put most of the effort and team’s resources into making the late game more fun which is currently just abound conquering the world (boring IMO). Adjusting the formula for decreasing top gear armor (while low and mid tier gear remain similar), does not look like a too complicated task (maybe I am wrong and it does).
Lusitani 5th Empire
@SadShogun Thanks for the reply, you made some valid points indeed.
Some more comments:
I completely agree. Devs might want to make this work without creating dependencies on another mechanics. Many other issues still require a lot of work, I would rather have them fixed than adding new stuff to the game.
Some more comments:
- Again, I think the bigger picture is that the "full price" is being payed in a single step, "cost of ownership" is a broader term, the "maintenance mechanic" is a way o address this.
- Maintenance is also a problem because (the way I proposed earlier) doesn't bring new benefit or fun to the player, in this case adding complexity does not justify, specially considering the work the game still needs.
- For a feature like this to be implemented I would suggest to add something that benefits the player experience along with it, instead of just repairing items to make them less worse also allow players to them better through upgrades to the gear, nothing fancy just UI to click to upgrade stats, blacksmiths, companions with skill or even the player could do it in the smithy.
- Items cost vs troops cost is still an issue, dropping items prices addresses this. There are threads and people in the forums suggesting to shift (some of) the money sink from individual items to the troops cost. I agree, a slight adjustment in this way looks like a good option. A good measure to the price should be the value it brings to the player character, troops are the money maker (high value to the player).
- Some "new features" could be made of just text. A big gap in providing more realism can be solved with few lines of code and some words. I think providing some explanation, story or background to why things are done the way they is an unexplored part game development. Things need to be justified, prices need to be justified, arbitrary values or numbers need to be grounded in a simulated story context, this allows players associate numbers to meaning, creating realism and patterns so that the player connects to the story and can take actions not just based on numbers but the context behind it
- E.g.: (obvious one) the game has no Lore, general story or bigger picture of events and character development story, quests stories or reasons to why you are doing them are place holders, context is meaningless.
- Gear has good stats, why good stats and huge price - good steel from x place, z blacksmith known for good work; why this troop costs this - has this stats, this gear, this horse (item vs troop prices relation established), so higher/lower price; why this wages - (relative value needs to be established between troops), this part is their salary, this part is for maintence of their equipment, horse feeding...;
- Why conflit is started (casus belli) - x lord called names to y lord, z lord raided 3 villages in the last month; why rebellion started? why bandits spawn? why this prosperity? what is prosperity?...
Was my thread from November last year.
It wouldn't need to be that complicated. Armor pieces could have hit points just like shields. If the HP value goes down to zero by getting hit enough times, you add a negative modifier onto it which reduces its armor value. So then you need to have it repaired at the smith. If you neglect to fix it and take more damage, it drops down to a worse modifier until, if its at the lowest quality level and loses all its hit points, it becomes irreparable and needs to be replaced
GrandiousBrain
Regular
IMO the whole immersion breaking,unrealistic aproach STEM FROM YOUTUBERS *wich their community spread like widlfire) consatntly saying how they want from the get go to get/be able to recruit high tier troops from villageres even when you are still a nobody SIMPLY BCS ITS QICKER FOR THEM TO GO INTO CONTENT and so that they can release videos more freqiently alongside showing so to say better/hyper things faster.Thus now we have this immersion issue where you can so easly recruit higher tier troops yet yourself look like beggar peasant that magicaly can have troops that are usualy only given acces to Vassals/Lords/Nobles aka PEOEL THAT HAVE HIGEHR STANDING AND REPUTATION WITH GIVEN TOWN/CITY/KINGDOM.
Same unrealistic/immersion breaking thing WAS ALSO lobbied by SAME YOUTUBERS where you start as NOBODY yet magicaly you have POWER OF GOD where you know EACH AND EVERY FAMILY,ALL THE CLANS,ALL EVENST AT ANY GIVEN TIME WITHOUT YOU EVEN NEEDING TO TALK,TRAVEL OR VISIT.EVERYTHING IS GIVEN ON A GOLDEN PLATE YOU JUST NEED TO SIT AND GO TO BATTLES.
Instead of that they hsouldve sticked to more realitstic/immersive rout OR ATLEAST THEY SHOULDVE MAKE IT OPTIONAL WHERE YOU CNA GO WITH BANNERLORD system of BEING ALL KNOWING GOD or LET PLAYER CHOSE IN OPTIONS TO GO WITH WARBAND SYSTEM WICH WAS MUCH MORE MEMRSIVE,MORE REALISTIC and actualy HAD FEELING of you ACTUALY BEINHGG A NOBODY ADN MAKING YOUR WAY UP THE LADDER/STATUS.Only thing that they could add is additons to make Warband wersion of knowing stuff much more managable and give us more features,options where we can get messages and stuff but IN MUCH MORE ORGANIC/REALISTIC/IMERSIVE MANNER liek having messesngers,sending companions with some troops to go discover/gather information about NOTABLES and stuff muc more efficiently and whatnot.
Another thing that Youtubers demanded SIMPLY CBS IT WILL MAKE THEIR VIDOE MAKING PROCESS FASTER is that you can see everythig and every NOTABLE NPC or buting stuf (Atelast for teh first time) without ever setting a foot in the City/Town/Castle but MAGICALY you alredy know where is everyone without atleast even neding to like send spy or companion or yourself firts to investigate/gather information for like 1h in game and dlike depending on ROGERY of you or companion you will get certain amount of information and Notable NPCs revealed.NON OF THAT is there its just you are nobody ALL MIGHT ALL KNOWING GOD.Now SOME of the SAME YOUTUBERS that asked,consatntly pounded THIS FEATURE ARE NOW THE SAME PEOEL TAHT SAY HOW THERE IS NO DEPTH AND HOW THERE IS NO INSENTIVES FOR PLAYERS TO VISIT/EXPLORE TOWNS/CASTELS YET THEY NOW MAGICALY FORGET/HAVE AMNESIA THAT THEY ARE THE ONES ALONGSIDE THEIR COMMUNITIES THAT DEMANDED THAT INSTANT ALL KNOWING GOD FEATURE/WAY OF APROACH TO THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE SIMPLY CBS IT WAS WAY TO HARD/LONG FO THEM TO MAKE CONTENT ABOUT IT AND WANTED FAST PACE WHERE TEY COULD QUICLY GO TO THE END GAME CONTENT AND GET OUT MORE VIDEOS A DAY.
But some of the Immersion killing/extremly unralistic rout stemmed from certain Yutubers that watned and made videos about wanting high tier troops to INSATNTLY BE AVAILABLE FROM THE BEGGINING and be recruitable in VILLAGES and anothr one as i mentioned BEING NOBODY YET YOU ARE ALL KNOWING GOD WHERE YOU IMMEDIETLY KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYONE FROM WICH CLAN IS AFFILIETED TO WICH KINGDOM ALL THE WAY TO ALLFAMILY MEMBERS OF EVERYONE EVEN THOU YOU NEVER EVEN MET,TALKED,EXPLORED,PAY FOR INFORMATION ABOUT NOTABLE NPCs.
You COMPLEATLY MISSED THE POINT!!!!
Its not that we want just copy paste Warband BUT Warmand features that worked/was liked be a stepping stone in Bannerlord from wich they copy/paste but not as a ful feature but as a starting point and then while impementing those features EXPAND them and UPGRADE upon them and as they work on them they immedietly fixing,tweeking stuff that were known that werent as good in Warband and that way saving lots of time,resorces and at the same time building a way better and more in depth feature from Warband and due t oknowing/being familiar with those features as the are impementing tehm in Banenrlord they will know what to avoid,what not to do and where it needed work from the satrt without much of brainsorming and waste of time,resorces WHILE AT THE SAME TIME NOT DESTORYING TEH IMMERSION AND SATISFACTION THAT THOSE WARBAND FEATURES BROUGHT TO THE GAME.
Thats why poeel say they shouldve copy Warbadn NOT TO BE THE SAME PER SAY BUT to use loved and features with LOTS OF POTENTIAL and then when impelmenetd to be furter worked upon,expanded,deeper like Feasts,Weedings,building feature.While they were decent/ok in Warband they were lacking in some ways especialy feasts wich were great BUT neded specialy way/tweek to make it just bit sensical like making sure that feasts arent being organized during war,during the war capagin or during enemy invasion BUT make it versitile like having 2 types of feasts normal Warband one with Bannerlord expansion/addityins and have like War Council featess where only participans in the war wouldgather and plan/vote on the aproach agressive,passive aggressive,neutral,defensive strategies and the diference is that Normal feasts wouldt be active during wars and normal feast would be canceled day after the war was anounced and War council feats would be ONLY availabele/be activated during teh war.
When poeel refer to Warband its from startpoint perspective/groundworks aka do as you were in Warband BUT then make those systems even better and deeper adn due to familiarity of Warband early on as they build Bannerlord they wouldve much easyer time fo evading soe of teh known problems that Warband had so when building the feature they aredy from the satrt couldve built teh feature much faster and better than it was in Warband cbs unlike wWarband they have and learned form experience not to do stuff certain way.(cant properly explain but the jets is that just cbs poeel say do just Warband INST AUTOMATICALY SAYING THAT COPY EXACTY BY THE LETTER BUT COPY/RECREATE IT BUT WITH BETTER APROACH)
Warband's encyclopedia gave you all the information upfront as well:
Pic taken on day 1 of a playthrough, with zero character interactions other than the opening quest merchant.
I don't know where you got the impression that Warband's encyclopedia required you meet people first, but it never did.
GrandiousBrain
Regular
Then i am wrong with that part maybe that was some standalone mod that i instaled and forgot and i appologise for that BUT i still stand by the i think they should make it more imersive where we arent just magcialy all knowing gods but isnetad sholdve made where we need ATLEAST to meet someone once and pay/brobe,send spies/troops/companions to go and gather infrmation and when it comes to companions then depending on their rogery,charisma skills they wil get certain procentage of notable npcs i their information report that then when reurned would update your encyclopedia on otehr families,alliances,clans.That way its much more immerisve,give additional thing for us or our companions via self given quest to do,give suse of skills,give sadditional way to spend our monye on,gives us additional feature and as time progresses and world is moving on so is your encyclopedia that gets updated as you progress.Or atleats shoudl make it ptional where players hae addition options to chose how they want to play and if thehy want the can chose if wat more immersive adn realistic way wher eyou know only like Ruler and his wife of each kingdom an then overtime you via bribes,spyig/gatering information update your encyclopedia about the tehir families and alliences/clans or just have the Bannerlord vanila wher eyoui are alredy all knowing god.Warband's encyclopedia gave you all the information upfront as well:
Pic taken on day 1 of a playthrough, with zero character interactions other than the opening quest merchant.
I don't know where you got the impression that Warband's encyclopedia required you meet people first, but it never did.
I also stand by what i said about the certain youtubers who flip floped like many ppl in community.
Totally agree. We already have an end game money sink. Converting other faction's clans require usally around 500k. And making armor an "end game goal" while they can never be bought is simply ridiculous.
Well to be honest those need to be fixed aswell, and they need to offer us viable Caravans again. I'm relatively happy with Workshops, not the uber-useless Caravans.
So if they fix this, at least for lower-tier clans without fiefs which still need a ridiculous amount of money to be converted, they need to offer us a way to spend our money again for late game.
Hey @SadShogun. Did weapon price changes make it into the game in 1.5.10 despite not being mentioned in the patch notes? Because weapons prices seem totally different than before. Prices seem to be much more in line with their usefulness. Especially those OP swingable polearms are much more expensive.
