Heretic Armies are too easy in PoP3

[Qnevven Zolond]

Has anyone beside me noticed how easy it is to dispatch Heretic Armies in PoP 3.0/3.01 ?
It's all because of their stupid troop line-up.
In my game they spawn with the following unit roster:
~10 Demon Magnus
~500+ Heretic Minions
~100 Heretic Worshippers
~50 Heretic Invokers
~10 adventurers

I am playing with standard-sized battlefield (100).
Due to the above line-up only the first battle with demonic troops is "challenging" after that it's all ridiculously easy.
Why?
Because for 4-5 battles following the initial one heretic army will only deploy heretic minions which are basicly cannon fodder (well there are no cannons in PoP, would say meat shields - but then again if they are the only heretic troops on the battlefield who would they be "shielding"?)...

By the time that the legion of heretic minions gets decimated with next to minimal casualties for the fighting party and the AI starts putting Heretic Worshippers and Invokers on the battlefield the heretic armies are already in big trouble - because of greatly decreased size of Heretic Army the tactic skill kicks in and your enemy will spawn his elite troops in smaller numbers putting himself in HUGE disadvantage.


It is really sad to see 750 men strong army of heretics gets wiped out easily by 2-3 lords with medicore troops totaling 200-300 soldiers


Now question about the solution.
I've noticed in the Troop Editor, that in the party_templates.txt you can edit "members" of a particular group.
My question is: - will changing the order in which members of the army are listed in the party_template change the troops lineup when they spawn on the map? (having in mind that changes will most likely take effects after i start new game) Or is the troop roster controlled by something completly different?

 

[Serazu]

The Demonic Magni, by the time the Heretic Army spawns, are almost 20 in my game, not 10. Other than that, I agree with you, after the Demonic Magni there should be Human Magni, Invokers and Worshippers and not those pathetic minions. And, since we 're talking about the Heretics here, the Three Seers army should include more Doomguides, not a mere dozen of them. I mean, wtf, even I have more Doomguides in my possession than the Three Seers originally had! Raising the number from a dozen to, at least two, maybe three would result in serious casualties to whoever battles them and make the skirmish much more difficult and challenging.

 

[Qnevven Zolond]

the exact number of particular troop type is random... if i remember correctly for Demonic Magni it's a range between 4 and 24

As for the main army body - i don't mind having there large number of heretics minions (range is 400-700 i think) - the only problem is that they should be fielded last in the battle... that way when someone is fighting Heretics they will be equally weakened or even defeated before they have chance to fight those minions at the end of the battle

Look at the Snake Cult armies - their army consists mainly of snake cult followers and armsmen (in terms of numbers/soldier count) and yet they are not that easy to kill because their army first fields priestesses, then anaconda knights, and cobra warriors...
Same with Jatu - they deploy elite troops first (Zulkar's Grim Riders/K'Juda's Kalahars, then Jatu Battle Riders, then Jatu Lancers and at the end Jatu Raiders)
also same with Wolfbode (Wolfbode Honour Guards, then Warriors and Shamans, and at the end plain Mystmountain Raiders)

The only minor faction that seems to field the lowest/easiest troops first (with exception for Demonic Magni) are the Heretics


So will changing members order in party_template.txt solve this or not?

 

[Warpath]

What the heretic army lacks is the middle tier troops in a adequate amount: more Heretic Worshipers , Adventurers, Invokers would make the fight more interesting by far.

 

[Serazu]

Invokers are far more than middle tiers.

 

[noosers]

You can easily tweak and personalize that witht the troop editor. Just toy around with the party templates and switch the composition.

Top position of trooper=top position at the troop roster = first one to spawn in a battle.

The reason why the top troops spawn first is that the first round usually is the most evenly matched one. So having the crack troops spawning later isn´t really purposefull as you want to have them all tearing apart the players army when the odds are still halfway evenly matched.

I think the heretic armies are fine enough as it is. Making all amies equally difficult would make it quite frustrating. You need some easy pie to avoid the twentieth nervous breakdown in a row because the Dread Legion or King Ulric and Sylas Uzas had your carefully composed army for lunch and industry grade agricultural fertilizer.

 

[Qnevven Zolond]

I think the heretic armies are fine enough as it is. Making all amies equally difficult would make it quite frustrating. You need some easy pie to avoid the twentieth nervous breakdown in a row because the Dread Legion or King Ulric and Sylas Uzas had your carefully composed army for lunch and industry grade agricultural fertilizer.

well if i get a message about heretics summoning demons and getting a huge arm i usually gather my own army and search for them.... but when i finally get to where they are supposed to be only to find out that they are already destroyed by AI lords - that's something wrong in my opinion
in 2.5 all minor faction armies have been a force to be respected and feared... in 3.0 when you walk into a tavern and mention heretic army you will hear common folk laughing at them

I remember complains about huge armies being too hard in 2-2.5 - dev team explained that's what they are supposed to be as defeating them will bring huge satisfaction to player who could have bested them in battle... now there is no glory or accomplishment for defeating heretics as (aside from demonic magni) their armies are almost as easy as peasant revolt

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

MV is addressing both the order of Heretic troop deployment and the strengths of them in the Warband port - we'd noticed on the Dev Team that they could use some attention, too.

 

[Chiksika]

I'm in pretty much agreement with noosers' take on this. In the many,many times I've played, there have been an abundance of Heretic armies spawning, with sometimes widely varying strength. I tend to fight them a few times only, then use them as a strategic asset. While it's true that a combination of lords can grind them up, smaller groups or lone lords will take heavy casualties against them and probably be unable to defeat them...= perfect opportunities to kite and wear down factions that you might not even be at war with, but are wanting to back-stab and disrupt a bit, screw up their campaigns against a target you might be eying for yourself later. The large amount of these Heretic armies spawning, in so many different places, allows for all kinds of sneaky "black-flag" operations against your "friends" and foes and overall disruption of their conquests. I shudder to think if they were as strong as Jatu, given the wide area they spawn in, there'd be utter chaos all over the map.

Also, they tend to be the only uniques that don't tend to be married to a particular location, you can kite them around and they wont necessarily return to their spawn point, unlike some of the others, such as Three Seers, Maltise, etc., which makes them a good proxy army for you to use to your advantage in causing havoc to everyone else, without them being aware that you're using them as a pawn. For me  tactical = fight Heretics yourself, strategy = use them to do your bidding unwittingly, and they're the only unique spawn that gives you the same level of opportunity.

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

There isn't already "utter chaos all over the map," Chiksika?  Mayhem reigns in Pendor, particularly in PoP 3, with the AI all going bonkers on conquest!  If the Heretics are a trifle stronger - a trifle, not massively overpowered, and deploy their better troops first like the Snake Cult and the Jatu -  they will be even more useful for kiting purposes and general disruptions of faction troops you may or may not be at war with, but want to put a little difficulty upon.

 

[Chiksika]

I dont disagree with you Fawzia, or the original poster. They could be stronger alright, but even now, they're very useful for other purposes than outright fighting. As you know, I tend to go pretty slow in my game, I like the overall strategy aspect of PoP, rather than "charge!". There are no other mods I can think of that allow so many opportunities to plan vastly different approaches. Sometimes, I'd rather do my (poor) imitation of Sun Tzu rather than beating my head against these spawns. Let the AI dummies ruin themselves against them, I'll pick up the spoils and then whip them too. Then I can listen to them cry about their inevitable defeat 

 

[mr48]

The problem with Invokers and Worshipers is that while they have pretty good stats, horses and proficiencies, they have extremely poor armor. Sure, some invokers have the demonskin armor, but the vast majority only have robes and no helmets, making them very easy to kill by lower level troops.

A simple solution would be to replace half of the invokers and worshipers in the heretic armies with Heretic Magni, who may not be as high level as invokers, but all have heavy armor, and excellent horses (including netherworld chargers), all of which make them extremely difficult to kill and considerably more dangerous than invokers.

Also, another issue is that the true strength of demonic magni is underestimated by the battle calculator. If you let a battle go on without you they die off at a steady rate with each consecutive wave, but if you play out every encounter they are almost indestructible. I once did it both ways as an experiment by joining the heretics against a 1300 strong Fierdsvain army, with tons of top-tier troops. If I let the auto-calc do the job the heretics lost pretty fast. If on the other hand, I joined every wave and played the battle out, the heretics would lose all their normal troops, but the 18 demonic magni would proceed to slaughter the rest of the Fierdsvain army without losing a single one, ending with a heretic victory. 

 

[Qnevven Zolond]

talking about heretics and their armours....

have you seen the stats on demonplate armour? (the one that demonic magni wears)
75 body, 37 leg on standard version... lordly one would have 81/43
too bad that it requires 73 str to wear

 

[noosers]

Demonplate stats and requirements are the same as they used to be since it was introduced. It´s an item the player shan´t get or be able to wear in a regular game.

mr48 pretty much sums it up. The heretics miss a respectable middle tiered troopers or a slight increase of Confessors/Priests, namely boosting their stuff (especially armor) a tad. Giving them Netherworld Chargers will greatly overpower them. A couple of other heavy war horses may be in place though and a different mix of troops.
A tad less junk and a bit more quality.

Given all the possible places where Heretics can spawn and their basic area (beeing right in the middle of Sarleon, Fierdsvain and D´Shar you need to reconsider your statement about how bad they´re. AI Lords/armies and their composition have been greatly increased so King Ulric and his pals paying a Heretic Army or anything else, heavily infantry based, a visit has a surely different outcome than 2.5 had yielded. Get that in your head and they´re fine as it is. Heretics are usually pictured as Horde over Quality type. Who cares about 500 dead fanatics if you still win? They´re just fodder. New miscreants will join your despicable cause. Just more blood to sacrifice.

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

The Heretic problem is already addressed for the Warband port, as per MV.  The Heretics will deploy their better troops first, as do the Snake Cult and Jatu, etc.  As to drastically increasing the numbers of high to middle tier troops,  Noosers has the right of it.  You will have to massacre tons of riffraff after eliminating the higher-tier troops who will now come first.
As previously stated by Chiksika, they are quite as useful for kiting and leaving on the loose to weaken a faction as they are to fight.  (Just don't leave them alone so long their army gets up over 1000+!)

There is another factor to consider in the Warband port - in Warband, cavalry has been severely nerfed.  We are experimenting with effects right now to keep a warhorse from being entirely useless when it runs into a line of infantry.  Currently in Warband - I understand the nerfing of cavalry was primarily for the benefit of the multi-players - the cavalry is virtually useless and a cavarly charge can't break a line of even farmer recruit infantry, which it should be able to do.  I'd advise waiting until we get that right, and the Warband port is finished.  As ever, balancing and adjusting troops under Warband's different stats for them is taking awhile.  I'm testing a cavalry rebalance right now, and we hope that will fix the problem of underpowered cavalry.  It has always been over-powered in M&B Vanilla, but now it is serverely underpowered in an unrealistic way.

 

[faigulla]

A horse at mid-gallop can probably break a few bones (or death) on a man if it runs straight into him, let alone if the horse is wearing armor.

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

Not very well in the current Warband - the cavalry in Warband, as is, stinks and needs balancing.  Now it is good for chasing down stragglers and not much else.  Infantry is much stronger than cavalry, but we are adjusting.

 

[BetrayTheWorld]

This is one of the things that made me shy away from buying warband to begin with. Thanks for reminding me. Rather than have a focus on realism in their combat, they made cavalry suck "for balance reasons". This simply doesn't sound enjoyable to me.

 

[Ichon]

Good horse that can break a line of heavy infantry wide open should be very expensive and much more rare. Right now horse is one of the best weapons in POP and even more considering how cheap most of even the top stat horses are.

Rarely even in medieval times did a full on cavalry charge hit a braced line of well trained infantry and burst through. Horses are big but blunt trauma from collisions works both ways. However cavalry trained to hit a line of infantry at a coordinated canter ruled the battlefields in Europe for a few hundred years, until the return of professional infantry armies and the advent of crossbows/gunpowder.

It would be great to have to really search out that good horse, especially in the early levels. Now playing a lancer is quite easy because you can usually get a decent Hunter right away leaving your first town and that is all you need for all but the largest Lord armies or elite spawns. If Hunters were fast, agile, and somewhat decent HP but not replicating a Charger as currently with medium/high charge that would be more interesting. Good warhorse or chargers should be quite expensive and more rare so that the first time you see one you have to consider if its worth spending the money on instantly or waiting to see if you get one with a little better stats...

Most low tier horses should have decent forward speed but low maneuverability and HP while the elite horses which have all 3 need to be very rare. Even Netherworlds which are insane HP and shock charge have relatively lower maneuverability than the best Hunters or Noldors.

 

[Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar]

@Betray the World: It isn't - Warband cavalry is worthless.  However, I just got done adjusting them to be good again and am testing the changes now to see if they are right, or too strong or still not strong enough for the PoP port to Warband.  Rest assured, cavalry will be good again when I'm done - I'm a bit of a cavalry fan myself.  The cavalry will be balanced properly against the infantry in Warband in the port of PoP 3.  The Taleworlds Devs said they nerfed the cavalry strength for the benefit of the multi-players - why, I don't know.

Edit: Ichon, don't forget the Templar Wedge Charges, too!  I don't have time to adjust each type of horse/horse's price individually in Warband, but am adjusting the damage they do to remove the weakened state in which Warband left them.  They will be back to more or less PoP levels when I'm done.