Hari Ragat: making spears more effective

[dariel]

Hi all! I'm looking for ways to make spears and spearmen more effective.  The way my mod is now, spearmen always get slaughtered by swordsmen. I want to get a more favorable balance for spearmen, since I see spearmen as the majority troops for most of my factions.  So question, how can I improve spearmen?

[list type=decimal]
[*]Increase polearm skill of spearmen to uber levels?
[*]Increase the speed of spears?
[*]Convert spears to one-handed weapons, as in Hegemony 268? What was the specific effect of that?
[/list]

Thanks!

 

[FrisianDude]

Hi all! I'm looking for ways to make spears and spearmen more effective.  The way my mod is now, spearmen always get slaughtered by swordsmen. I want to get a more favorable balance for spearmen, since I see spearmen as the majority troops for most of my factions.  So question, how can I improve spearmen?

[list type=decimal]
[*]Increase polearm skill of spearmen to uber levels?
[*]Increase the speed of spears?
[*]Convert spears to one-handed weapons, as in Hegemony 268? What was the specific effect of that?
[/list]

Thanks!

I'd increase the speed and damage of spears and see what happens. Maybe you could work in formations and/or spearbracing to improve your spearmen?

 

[Cookie Eating Huskarl]

i learned that a stationary massed group of poking spearmen over a choke point is a very effective tactic.... custom battle scenes?

I remembered medieval SEA battles involve a lot of riverside/ beach landings and bridges in strategic defending points. Hope i helped

 

[amade]

I'd suggest making swordsmen less prolific in the mod, or make the spears much longer. I assume most of the swords will be short anyway, since they're along the lines of goloks and kampilans.

 

[Troll]

I don't think making spears longer helps. That way swordsmen will just slaughter them when they get enough near. I suggest increasing their polearm skill for it increases both damage and speed.

 

[Cookie Eating Huskarl]

make sure they can use two handed/polearm animation for swings and they should do all right with the blunt damage though

 

[dariel]

I'd increase the speed and damage of spears and see what happens. Maybe you could work in formations and/or spearbracing to improve your spearmen?

Hm, looks like I'll have to increase the speed a bit more.  Right now my spears are already set at a speed faster than any sword.  And I'm using formations (I'm testing on an edit of Native Expansion).  The problem seems to lie in the spearmen failing to attack aggressively enough, while swordsmen seem to be more aggressive. 

Or is it the spearwall that's causing it? Instead of pushing forward, the spearmen halt and let themselves get surrounded because they've braced spears?  I'll try it again with the spearwall option off.  Thanks!

 

[Cookie Eating Huskarl]

I'd increase the speed and damage of spears and see what happens. Maybe you could work in formations and/or spearbracing to improve your spearmen?

Hm, looks like I'll have to increase the speed a bit more.  Right now my spears are already set at a speed faster than any sword.  And I'm using formations (I'm testing on an edit of Native Expansion).  The problem seems to lie in the spearmen failing to attack aggressively enough, while swordsmen seem to be more aggressive. 

Or is it the spearwall that's causing it? Instead of pushing forward, the spearmen halt and let themselves get surrounded because they've braced spears?  I'll try it again with the spearwall option off.  Thanks!

the spearwall would only work on charging cavalry IMO if i'm not mistaken. Was there a greek phalanx type of formation in the pack? i can't recall....

 

[Tuckles]

Increase the speed, add in shield bash, and you should be set to go.

Oh and this may seem odd, but make the spears shorter, that way, they have a better effective range. Too far, and they get slaughtered because the AI likes to get close.

 

[dariel]

Carefull with that. Formation tend to make the AI sluggish and dumb. Because spears are mostly trusting weapons, this make matter worst. I suggest sticking with native tactics. I can't recall one mod that got formation  running smooth, I usually take them down like flies because they're all busy "dancing" instead of fighting.

As such to reproduce that, it's all about agility (15+ will shine) and athletics(5+ is deadly)
Boost thoses and you see M&B AI start to get active.

The problem in native is the absence of skills. That magic is what I used to make the top unit so deadly in my mod. Even a guy with no armor can wreck havoc if he got high agility/athletics.

Interesting suggestion! I'll redo my test troops and items using just Native, increase the agility and athletics skills of my spearmen (very appropriate for a Southeast Asian setting anyway, with lightly clad people and difficult terrain), and increase the speed of spears.  I'll also do one line of spearmen with basic spears, and another line that use spears converted to one-handed weapons and see which is better.  Thanks!

Increase the speed, add in shield bash, and you should be set to go.

Oh and this may seem odd, but make the spears shorter, that way, they have a better effective range. Too far, and they get slaughtered because the AI likes to get close.

Keeping the spears short also sounds appropriate for the setting.  Ifugao spears are usually only about 5 feet, and the Moro spears I've seen are about 7 feet - 8 feet.  Thanks for the note though - I hadn't thought of that til you brought it up.

 

[Tuckles]

Don't forget that couching spears would be useless if they were short.

 

[dariel]

Also many spears can be thrown at short distance (better than a sword anyway). M&B don't support that concept, but you can simulate it by giving them bag of throwing spears. A bit silly since in reality they would just retrieve their thrown spear.... Just remember to make those near weightless or it will slow them down

I've revised many of the troops so they now have throwing spears.  There's one faction I have though that I've conceived as using only thrusting spears, in fact at first it was pikes, because of their history - they're not a warrior people, so they stick to simple weapons and are defense-oriented.  A spear is something every farmer can have resting on his doorpost.

What you said about throwers retrieving their spears reminded me of another feature I'd like to have - a 'harvest arrows' command.  An option to tell your missile troops to go forward and refill their quivers - my idea is the archers and throwers go forward say 20-30 paces and mill around for a few seconds, after which time their quivers will be refilled.  During this time, however, they'll be very vulnerable specially to a cavalry charge. 

 

[Berserker Pride]

I'd just like to put my two cents in on the spear thing.  I would not suggest making them onehanded weapons as they would lose the special ability polearms have to make cavalry rear.  Polearms can be used onehanded in M&B as well.  I find Hegemony 268 did a great job making spears effective by making them all quite fast.  You never saw a spear below 100 speed in that mod.  The reason 268 made them onehanded weapons is because the creator didn't want people running around couchlancing people in an age when stirrups weren't invented.

  The idea to make swordsmen slow and spearmen fast and lightly armored is good too.  Spears penetrate thick armor well.  The reason spears tend to lose in M&B is because the spearmen get one hit in and then the swordsman closes the range to 0.  A slower swordsman gives the spearman a chance to strike again.

I love your harvest arrows idea it sounds sweet. 

 

[Tuckles]

IIRC noblemen used swords because they were the only weapon not adapted from a tool.

Also, I still say go for short spears, and also, you can edit the way troops hold spears, allowing for one handed swings with a spear even with a shield.

 

[Soil]

There are two major issues with spears in M&B:

1) AI fighters really like to cuddle with their opponents, I think spearmen keep some distance, but swords men will run into you as fast as possible and that makes your spear useless and leads to
2) In reality you can keep someone at distance with a spear. In M&B spears don't always have pointy ends, that means only if you're attacking with a spear it is dangerous. This applies to all pointy weapons in M&B, but you can at least slash your sword if you're too close to stab.


Balancing spearmen is a difficult task. I think the fairest way would be to allow a spearwielding fighter to keep one opponent away and increasing the spears' speed.

By the way, I intend to make hurling spears sideways possible in my mod. Don't know if it'll work because it'd only work on the right side, but giving spearmen an attack like that so they can hit them when their enemy is rather close should help them, too.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Tuckles beat me to it


Ack, Berserker Pride and Tuckles were faster, so I'm going to reply a bit to their posts too.

@Berserker Pride

You're right about that and I'd have said the same thing too but from what I have gathered his mod is set in Southern Asia, with 'difficult terrain'. I doubt stopping horses with spears is a priority.

I only read it on wikipedia, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong: Couched lances wouldn't have been totally impossible without stirrups.

The harvest arrows idea isn't bad, but the quivers shouldn't be 100% refilled. And it'd only make much sense if there were hostile archers having shot, too, because archers tend to shoot further than 20-30 paces.

@Tuckles, swords are more or less a kind of knife, which was, in fact, the first tool used by humans. And spears were only used for hunting before and have thus been weapons all the time. That's how I see it.

I guess noblemen liked swords because they were a symbol of, well, nobility and made them stand out from the poorer folk who couldn't afford them. Swords are also rather elegant, so that could've been a criterium, too. And of course, the choice of weapons probably was passed on.

 

[Arch3r]

1: Remove the penalty with shield
2: Change the armour reduction against pierce in module.ini:

armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.35
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
3: Slightly increase the damage of spears
(4: optional: Give spearmen slightly more profiency)

Works fine for me...

 

[Tuckles]

@Tuckles, swords are more or less a kind of knife, which was, in fact, the first tool used by humans. And spears were only used for hunting before and have thus been weapons all the time. That's how I see it.

I guess noblemen liked swords because they were a symbol of, well, nobility and made them stand out from the poorer folk who couldn't afford them. Swords are also rather elegant, so that could've been a criterium, too. And of course, the choice of weapons probably was passed on.

It's larger than a knife, so it's useless as a tool.

On the other hand, axes were used in the lumber industry, spears were modified farming implements, bows and arrows were used in hunting.

 

[Dudro]

Give the spearmen a higher power strike.

 

[dariel]

Interesting suggestions everybody, thanks! This is what I'm going to test out now:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Native, no formations
[*]Short spears only, max reach 160 (though to be realistic I should be able to go 200)
[*]Spear speed improved to 120; the shortened spear (representing the Igorot fal-feg) will be 130 speed
[*]Default stats and skills for all troops improved, STR 12 AGI 12 Athletics 3 Power Strike 1
[/list]

And for the Balayans, the faction I plan to have using the longest spears, they'll also have the advantage of combined arms - the bulk of the infantry are spearmen, but I've thrown in bolo-men with short swords and parrying daggers coded as archers.  It seems that when you designate a unit with guarantee_ranged, but give it only melee weapons, it acts as a melee skirmisher - it runs forward to engage, even flanks, and hopefully that'll distract the enemy and open them to the spearmen's charge.

 

[Llew2]

One thing I did was to take the 'penalty with shield' off all spears. Helps a little.

I look forward to seeing how your experiments go; I'll probably implement them if they work.