Hardcore/Technical Damage? & A New System of Damage Distribution? ->Poll Added<-

[Computica]

I had gotten a crazy idea after playing Fallout: New Vegas extensively on hardcore mode; Since I'm going to re-balance weapons and armor, why not do so realistically but in a way where all troops respond to taking damage. If you've played Fallout 3 and noticed that when you become crippled in the legs you become slower, or when your head becomes crippled your vision and aim gets worse?

Well what if I developed a system where all players could become crippled in battle somehow and slightly effect there battle performance for just the battle phase?

I also have been thinking about weapon damage extensively, I want things to be simulated realistically but in a way where every hit isn't just an instant K.O./kill. Giving more emphasis on what part of the body you were hit instead of weapon damage should matter greatly. I believe that blunt damage should be something that is more instant in effect and that cutting damage should take down a persons health over time.

Think about it, the purpose of cutting your enemies is to either chop them in pieces or make them bleed. For blunt weapons there purpose is to crush and dent the insides of your enemies. That is why blunt weapons should do more damage to armored foes. As for piercing damage hmm... well, the purpose is to impale your targets but to do so quickly so you can withdraw your weapon. Maybe piercing damage is a little of both:

Instant+1.0/Bleed-out+0.0||Instant+0.75/Bleed-out+0.25||Instant+0.5/Bleed-out+0.5
Blunt Dmg.||Piercing Dmg.||Cut Dmg.​

Example:
Instant = Damage received is Instant
Bleed-out = Damage is received overtime

For these ideas it is in likeness of fancy damage systems without the "fancy", but it can use the hit detection from it. Also I'm thinking about giving each limb, (except the Head) Left & Right Arms, Legs, and Torso, 1/5 each of the player's total (or current) HP while giving the torso x2 of that 1/5 since it is the biggest part of the body. The health of each limb would be individual and not effect if the player/npc dies or not, but will instead inflict penalties to movement speed, weapon proficiency, and skills.

Update:
I decided not to add a voting Poll as this feature is more experimental and if implemented will be something that people can switch on and off.

Update 2:
I re-adjusted the Instant and bleed-out damages for each type of damage there is.

 

[LibSpit]

Have you also been thinking about the way armour reacts to different forms of weapons?

for instance:

Chainmails were designed to protect against slicing damage, not piercing damage. So that is where spears, bodkin arrows, and blade thrusts become more important because a swinging/slashing blade or strike does almost nothing against chainmail, beyond blunt force trauma.

so if you have your three strike types, blunt/cut/pierce it would also be good if the different armour types had different resistances to those damage types.

 

[Bismarck]

so if you have your three strike types, blunt/cut/pierce it would also be good if the different armour types had different resistances to those damage types.

The idea is great, but I doubt Warband is able to handle armour-specific resistances. In module.ini, you can only influence the following:

armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75

I'm not aware of any possibility to define these resistances individually. Hopefully, Mount&Blade 2 will change that... or a brilliant modder somehow realizes this feature.

 

[Computica]

Bismarck is correct, but I could add another funky formula during hit detection for specific items to give certain resistances.

Actually doing things via hit detection is the best way to simulate that. OK, so what major armors other then chain mail are there that we use in-game? Here is what I know of:
Very Light:
Cloth

Light:
Leather/Padded

Medium:
Lamellar/Scale/Banded Mail

Heavy:
Banded/Plate/Mirror

This is just a rough draft what would be the resistances and weakness for these armor types? Please correct this list if you want. Hopefully if we can get some modellers to make new armors to replace the old or I get my own skills up we could add some proper looking armors to replace the old ones.

Also when this system is in-place I'll add a description system to give more details on armor.

 

[Bismarck]

Let's see what I can find:
Cloth (civilian stuff)
Fur, Hide
Padded Cloth (Gambeson) - more protection versus blunt trauma than unpadded cloth
Leather
Padded Leather
Studded Leather

- All of the following armours usually have a padded layer under the metal parts. Metal on naked skin is not very comfortable. -
Light and Heavy Mail Shirt
Light Brigandine
Heavy Mail Shirt
Heavy Brigandine
Mail + banded/studded leather (cuir bouillie)
Scale/Lamellar
Jazeran/Mail with Plate (Coat of Plate)
Half Plate
3-Quarter Plate
Full Plate
Gothic Plate



Here are some of Narf's armours:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/rusarmours.jpg/
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,100949.0.html
http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2006
It's free to use as long as you give credit. Maybe a little bit of retexturing could be done to fit SoD's style. That gothic plate armour, the sallet and the flamberge would look great on Antares' elite troops (the pants' colour should be changed to black though).

 

[Daedelus_McGee]

My prejudices require me to not the following:

1. Anything that looks, acts, or functions like repeating crossbows that shoot exploding ninja stars is bad.  I'm willing to accept RCTSENS weapons so long as they have a breakage factor of 99% upon use, and do 250 points of damage to all friendly units brought to the battle when they break.  (The complaint thread if you implement that is going to be epic joy.) 

2. Energy is not free, excess energy doesn't necessarily do extra damage. Although firearms violate the "energy is not free" rule, they pay strict adherence to the excess energy rule until we get cannons. Giant choppy/smashy things are slow as hell, take up tons of room, and miss a lot because energy is not free.  The size and mass associated with giant choppy/smashy things reduces their effect in combat a lot.  We know this because flail-armed peasant revolutionaries got slaughtered in droves by real fighting people throughout history.

3. Material strength is different against different applications of weapon energy. Mongol breastplates of laminated linen and silk might well hold up against bodkin arrows where plated doesn't.  They would probably suck against halberds and pikes.

4. All engineering is compromise. The balancing act of weaponry and protection is long and confusing.  Even though there is such a thing as a "hunga-munga" that doesn't mean that it's oddity will overthrow expert pike formation. The only thing that worked consistently against pike was flintlock muskets with socket bayonets. This is why pike formations continued until the widespread availability of flintlock muskets withe socket bayonets. Even then, there were lancers and saber-armed cuirassers through to Waterloo, but none worth mentioning after revolver cavalry came about (except for parade guards units). Flintlock muskets stink too much of repeating crossbows that shoot exploding ninja stars for this mod.

 

[Computica]

2. Energy is not free, excess energy doesn't necessarily do extra damage. Although firearms violate the "energy is not free" rule, they pay strict adherence to the excess energy rule until we get cannons. Giant choppy/smashy things are slow as hell, take up tons of room, and miss a lot because energy is not free.  The size and mass associated with giant choppy/smashy things reduces their effect in combat a lot.  We know this because flail-armed peasant revolutionaries got slaughtered in droves by real fighting people throughout history.

On the subject of energy, do you all think it would be pretty cool if we could simulate stamina as a factor in-battle? Maybe weight (encumbrance) should have a factor on the player and the horse not just speed wise but weapon speed and top movement speed?

3. Material strength is different against different applications of weapon energy. Mongol breastplates of laminated linen and silk might well hold up against bodkin arrows where plated doesn't.  They would probably suck against halberds and pikes.

As long as the system we have in place is simple as a rock/paper/scissors format I'm all for it; Even if we have different systems of rock/paper/scissors going on in one area as long as it is not too confusing to understand I'm all for it.

Update:
The first thing I might work on is the Tecnical/Hardcore/Damage Systems to see if the hit detection works like I want it to. The most difficult thing about this system is figuring out a way where a system as complicated as this works realistically but still makes the game fun.

So for instance lets say I'm running at a archer with a 2 handed melee weapon, equipped with heavy body armor, and fur boots. So the archer shoots me in the knee.  Well I'm not dead but my left leg is crippled, as a result my top movement speed is cut to about 25%, he knows he can't kill me since I'm wearing heavy armor so he shoots at my other knee so both my legs are crippled. This decreases my overall top speed to about 50%; so in this way the game adds another layer of strategy in-battle.

The downside to this is that visually I might be limited as I'd like to show that the player is limping as the result of being crippled.

I'll also need ideas as for being crippled in the arms and torso. Head shots are already simulated by the engine as critical hits already and are very deadly so I see no point in messing with that. A crippled Torso could make a blood loss effect which causes 1 point HP loss every few seconds. This can be based totally on in-game difficulty settings though. I think this way we can see ourselves playing a bit more tactical and realistically without being a 1 hit K.O. Hardcore Game.

Also skilled AI crossbowmen prefer to aim at the head so I see no point to making head shots be more critical than they already are.

 

[LibSpit]

I think the rock paper scissors is a pretty good format, it sounds simple but it actually encompasses the majority of the kind of damage that can realistically be inflicted, some weapons and armour were designed to inflict/resist multiple types of damage, but it all still pretty much fits into that pattern of blunt/cut/pierce.

most types of armour manufacture resist either projectiles or something stabbing(with the force of an arm behind it) or slashing. Something that stops a bullet will often not stop a knife as the 'force pattern' is different, with a projectile all the force is contained in one short sharp hit, where as a knife has a lower initial impact, but then a sustained energy as the wielder pushes, that is why 'stab vests' and 'bullet resistant' vests are made of different materials.

anyone want to see japanese paper armour implented? good for all your damage resistant needs well at least once or twice

On repeating crossbows, they did actually exist in china, with a handle that you pulled back in an arc, the exploding ninja stars would be tricky though...how would you get the bang inside them...

I was actually thinking about the idea of energy and also conditioning needed to use a weapon...how most types of soldier, particularly ranged soldiers had to train long and hard to use a decent bow or crossbow because the amount of draw strength needed was huge, over 150lbs for a british longbow. The reason fire arms were so useful was the fact that anyone could be taught to use it without needing much physical conditioning. I guess it is already taken care of though because as a troop gets more advanced their bow/crossbow gets bigger and more powerful, where as the guns are powerful no matter what type they are, they just get more accurate with quality.

on body damage:

horses already have an effectiveness reduction when they are badly hurt because they get much slower, (you can't always couch a lance on an injured horse) I always thought that was cool. I know brytenwalda has a bloodloss element where both mounts and soldiers take damage over time when injured. I guess arm damage would be a reduction in speed and damage and if you wanted to be really harsh, you cripple a guys arm and he can no longer use a two handed weapon or even a shield effectively. shoot the guy in his sword arm and he would be forced to drop his shield to use his sword....scum bag!!

I agree headshots are already taken care of.

 

[Computica]

I think the rock paper scissors is a pretty good format, it sounds simple but it actually encompasses the majority of the kind of damage that can realistically be inflicted, some weapons and armour were designed to inflict/resist multiple types of damage, but it all still pretty much fits into that pattern of blunt/cut/pierce.

Most types of armour manufacture resist either projectiles or something stabbing(with the force of an arm behind it) or slashing. Something that stops a bullet will often not stop a knife as the 'force pattern' is different, with a projectile all the force is contained in one short sharp hit, where as a knife has a lower initial impact, but then a sustained energy as the wielder pushes, that is why 'stab vests' and 'bullet resistant' vests are made of different materials.

Aye, the rock/paper/scissors theory is a commonly used format amongst tactical games, as long as we have different systems of it and not just one there can be a good amount of factors to think about. This could also improve attack spamming and the way players choose weapons which should be important in actual battle.

*Note-To-Self* This could also mean that certain type of arrows could be used to defeat certain armor types increasing the tactical strategy of our in-game archers.

anyone want to see japanese paper armour implented? good for all your damage resistant needs well at least once or twice

Can you post a picture of that I could probably add them in-game.

On repeating crossbows, they did actually exist in china, with a handle that you pulled back in an arc, the exploding ninja stars would be tricky though...how would you get the bang inside them...

Ninja Stars are something I can see being implemented but I don't know about the exploding part.

I was actually thinking about the idea of energy and also conditioning needed to use a weapon...how most types of soldier, particularly ranged soldiers had to train long and hard to use a decent bow or crossbow because the amount of draw strength needed was huge, over 150lbs for a british longbow. The reason fire arms were so useful was the fact that anyone could be taught to use it without needing much physical conditioning. I guess it is already taken care of though because as a troop gets more advanced their bow/crossbow gets bigger and more powerful, where as the guns are powerful no matter what type they are, they just get more accurate with quality.

on body damage:

horses already have an effectiveness reduction when they are badly hurt because they get much slower, (you can't always couch a lance on an injured horse) I always thought that was cool. I know brytenwalda has a bloodloss element where both mounts and soldiers take damage over time when injured. I guess arm damage would be a reduction in speed and damage and if you wanted to be really harsh, you cripple a guys arm and he can no longer use a two handed weapon or even a shield effectively. shoot the guy in his sword arm and he would be forced to drop his shield to use his sword....scum bag!!

I agree headshots are already taken care of.

Ah, I didn't know BY had an feature (blood loss) like that, I've been busy coming up with new ideas to play many other mods as of late. That's was just an idea though, I'm not sure if it is something I would do, but we will see.

I'm trying to see if I can find a way for the player's skills to effect the use of ranged weapons in battle. As for the arms being crippled I would like to see a reducing of weapon speed.

 

[LibSpit]

Chinese Paper armour was essentially the same design as leather and metal banded armour, there were many ways that the paper 'plates' were made then they were attached togeter with leather thongs just like the standard eastern armour. It was basically used as a cheap alternative to other armours (or in situations where metal was scarce) but it actualy has similar resistance properties as standard banded armour, although not as long lasting, each plate would be good for one or too hits, but it was even resistant to early fire arms.

Sorry it was chinese not jap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvhcVCmF9a0

Unfortunately I couldn't actually find a clip of the recreated armour they tested.

The whole post was actually more of a joke, but it is an incredible piece of historical information!

 

[Computica]

Thanks Lib 

OK, here are the effects that will happen to a player/npc if they become crippled during battle:
Legs: -30% overall movement speed per leg.
-or-
Legs: -20% overall movement speed per leg & -1 Athletics per leg

Arms: -40% weapon proficiency per arm.
-or-
Arms: -30% weapon proficiency per arm; & at random -1 to Power Draw and Power Throw, or Power Strike skill per arm at random. (So this could mean that any one of those skills could go down to -2 and the other be unchanged.)

Torso: 10% that damage receiver is knocked down when hit???
-or-
Torso: (If Stamina is implemented) Lowers Stamina Recovery Rate???
-or-
Torso: Small chance to bleed-out a bit when hit in the Torso again???
-or-
Torso: Hits to the Torso do 10% more damage after being crippled???

 

[LibSpit]

I like the options that affect the skil points as well as this can then mean less impact to say someone with a high athletic skill (for the leg example) so it can reflect their higher conditioning.

With the torso damage it would be awesome if you could have a different affect for each type of damage, like the knock over being caused by blunt force weapons, I doubt that is possible though.

I think my favourite choices would be either knockdown, cause that is really annoying hehe or the 10% extra damage as it represents damage to the rib cage so internal organs are going to be more likely to be impacted and ruputered etc.

 

[Computica]

...I doubt that is possible though.

Muahahahaha! There's nothing impossible for the great and mighty Cosmic Computica! 

...well  that's not true sadly  but doing so is very possible. 


So be it for Torso's it depends on what type of damage you took upon being crippled! 
Torso(Blunt): 10% chance that damage receiver is knocked down when hit!
-or-
Torso(Cut): 10% more [bleed-out] damage when hit!
-or-
Torso(Pierce): Attacks do 10% more [Instant] damage after being crippled in the Torso!

Good idea by the way Lib! 

 

[LibSpit]

More fool me!!!

I continously underestimate the power of computica!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[manekemaan]

im gone for two days and this happens? :p i'l be gone more often

 

[Computica]

I see that we have a hardcore crowd here, everyone is liking the stat penalties I see. Let's see if we can get a few more votes though. First thing I'll do is implement those effects and make sure Limb Health is set at the beginning of battle.

im gone for two days and this happens? :p i'l be gone more often

 

[manekemaan]

btw make sure that this only aplies when a certain amount of damage is done. For an example, a surface wound wouldn't slow a man down at all while a wound up to the muscle and of bone might do serious damage to the walking speed.

 

[Computica]

btw make sure that this only aplies when a certain amount of damage is done. For an example, a surface wound wouldn't slow a man down at all while a wound up to the muscle and of bone might do serious damage to the walking speed.

I'm making it so only 75% of the damage received effects the Limb that was hit.

 

[manekemaan]

Nice


btw i was thinking: blunt can cause trauma on the inside, like inside bleeding thus effects on the long term. How could this be implemented?

 

[Computica]

Nice


btw i was thinking: blunt can cause trauma on the inside, like inside bleeding thus effects on the long term. How could this be implemented?

That would need an injury system; I brought it up a long time ago but a few people frowned on the idea.