Group Fighting - Why does no one know how to do this?

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Lord Rich

Grandmaster Knight
It's a really wierd thing for me, I play on siege servers all the time but only a tiny percentage of players have any notion about how to properly fight in coordination with their team mates.

We have players who will just blatantly swing 2H weapons through their allies, and others who will simply treat any situation as a 1 vs 1 and use their standard tactics there (these types of players can often be very skilled in 1vs1). Both these things tend to get allies killed as much as enemies, yet fighting with your team mates is actually extremely easy. So it does surprise me that so few people seem to know how to do it.

Coordination over VOIP can help of course but it actually isn't at all necessary for this so I thought I would write a short guide for players who are unaware of the simple techniques and tactics which can be used for effective group fighting. This deals how best to coordinate with other players against single enemy opponents, obviously there are a lot more situations than that but this seems the most common that people go wrong on.

TL;DR Version at bottom of post.

Attitude
This is probably the most important thing, most players follow the mantra of 'I need to get the kill'. This actively hinders fighting in groups as it encourages you to constantly be at the fore of the fighting and pushes you to get the kill in competition with your team mates.

A better attitude is 'We need to get the kill', or put simply to only care about killing the other team and not who in particular is doing the killing. This allows you to assist your fellow players in setting up easy kills, even if you in particular do not get the kill.

Basic Tactics

Surrounds
One of the simplest approaches in a 2 vs 1 situation is to simply surround your opponent, when attacked from two sides no matter how good the single player is, he generally stands no chance.

Actually getting a surround can be tricky at times but as far as I know always possible. The enemy might move away from you or your team mate but as long as they are forced to defend or attack they cannot move faster than a player who is not. So the player nearest to the enemy should attempt to slow them down by simply engaging rather defensively until their ally has got the opponent out flanked.

A surround is the perfect attacking style since not only can you attack with different swings (getting round blocking without shields), you also attack from two entirely different sides. Completely unstoppable.

If a surround is not possible, for instance you do not have time to catch up and overtake the enemy due to some other circumstances, it is still effective to fight side by side. This is much more common as a fighting tactic but one that 95% of players make extremely basic mistakes on. Just alternate your attack directions to get round the enemies block, or against a shield user keep attacking alternately, he should never have a chance to counter. If he does he dies, if he doesn't his shield will break then he dies.

What to Avoid
Firstly, be careful with your attack directions, if you have an ally on your left side then you should NEVER use a left swing. Seems obvious, yet happens all the time. If you are not exactly sure where your allies are around you stick to thrusts and overheads.

Secondly DO NOT ROTATE AROUND THE ENEMY. This is a tactic commonly employed in 1 vs 1 situations. Players will get close to an enemy then spin round them to try and bypass their block. This is a very useful and effective tactic in 1 vs 1. In 2 vs 1, it's extremely stupid.

If you move around the enemy you can very quickly block your allies line of sight, not only making them cancel any attacks they had chambered but also masking the enemies attack. The enemy can very easily use this opportunity to launch an attack at your ally which will often be successful.

The correct way of fighting is to maintain the same orientation to the enemy all the time. You don't have to use crazy spinning techniques or even mad feinting spasms to win simply because the combination of you and your ally can make unstoppable combo attacks and also pressure the enemy to such a degree he can't counter attack anyway.

Thirdly when fighting alongside ranged players, always make sure to stand neither in front nor behind the enemy relative to the ranged players point of view. Stay off to the side and you will make it extremely easy for your ranged ally to get a kill. All you will need to do is make token attacks and play defensively. In ranged/melee combined engagements, the melee fighter should ALWAYS set up the kill for the ranged player. If you fight it like a 1 vs 1 the bowman/xbow player might as well not be there because if they shoot they will be as likely to kill you as the enemy.

Fourthly, if you are a bit further back than your ally, be very careful with holding chambered attacks. A common technique I use when confronted by multiple opponents is to always strike at the one who thinks he is safe to ready an attack. If you significantly outrange the enemy then this isn't so much of a problem but otherwise try to chamber only thrusts. It's easy enough to stick a thrust into someone if they suddenly lunge at you.

Finally, numerical overkill. Quite often I will see a single enemy be mobbed by 4 - 7 of my team mates. In almost all cases the single enemy will die quite quickly, unfortunately this will often be accompanied by 1 or 2 deaths of my allies, either from accidental tk's or simply by the enemy getting a sneaky attack in. At most 3 players is the maximum you can really use to attack a single other player in melee. Any more than that and it quickly becomes an unworkable mess.

Blind Siding
This is where you see an ally approaching to help, but your enemy doesn't. All you have to do in these situations is keep fighting but play defensively and keep the enemy looking directly away from your ally. All too often I will be approaching an enemy from behind to 'ninja' him when my ally who is fighting will close and spin around the enemy, revealing me and removing any hope of surprise.

Weapon Choice/Roles
By far the best weapons for group fighting are the pikes, no side attacks cut down on any risk of hitting your allies and they have great range. I always try and take a pike or spear where I can to use in these situations. It really is quite horrible trying to fight two pike users who work together, you have no opportunity to even get into range let alone attack. Sure you can hold down block but the moment you try to attack one of them the other one will skewer you.

If you don't have a pike or spear though, there are a few other specialised methods to use beyond what has already been discussed.

Archers, kite the enemy, you can maintain a distance of about 3 - 4X the enemies maximum range. If the single enemy comes at you and looks like he will get in range, switch to melee but keep backing off. Ideally let infantry do all the fighting, you are there to get the easy kill when the opportunity comes. If there are no infantry but multiple archers vs a single infantryman, just keep backing off and let the others shoot him (oddly THIS I see in game quite a lot).

Xbow's, the same as archers but maintain a greater distance to give yourself more opportunity to reload.

Shield+1H users, best way to fight like this is to close to point blank on the enemy I find and get in their face. If you keep your shield up most of the time you can play defensive very easily.

Generally though, just keep at the maximum range of your weapon. There is no point really closing in when fighting in a group.

Main Points
  • Keep line of sight open for allies at all times
  • Fight at the maximum range of your weapon
  • Fight to kill the enemy, don't fight to get the kill for yourself
  • Use pikes/long weapons whenever you assist another player
  • Use simple coordination to avoid unnecessary pyrrhic victories

I would be interested to hear if anyone has anything to add to this (or disagree!), good tactics to counter it when outnumbered (besides run away) or the best way to use cavalry in a supporting role/the best setup for holding choke points etc...
 
A valiant effort, though it all seems fairly obvious, and I doubt the people here who will read it really need much help fighting noobs in seige servers, but still, nicely formatted.
 
Running into the enemy and causing confusion seems to be a good way to counter being outnumbered. If you don't get a kill, they at least team injure each other.
 
Scully said:
Running into the enemy and causing confusion seems to be a good way to counter being outnumbered. If you don't get a kill, they at least team injure each other.

He's talking about when you outnumber the enemy, not the other way around...
Did you read the thing?
 
Yes, did you?
Lord Rich said:
I would be interested to hear if anyone has anything to add to this (or disagree!), good tactics to counter it when outnumbered (besides run away) or the best way to use cavalry in a supporting role/the best setup for holding choke points etc...
 
Scully said:
Yes, did you?
Lord Rich said:
I would be interested to hear if anyone has anything to add to this (or disagree!), good tactics to counter it when outnumbered (besides run away) or the best way to use cavalry in a supporting role/the best setup for holding choke points etc...

i lol'd this sorry x :razz:
 
I do agree with the second point competely. I've come across this a fair amount of times, especially with allies with a 2 handed weapon (2 handed sword or another balanced weapon especially) and they try and feint alot whilst they spin. Very difficult to put a shot in to help you team mate and he ends up getting shot him self by the opposition. (Unfortunately I am guiltly of doing this before, we've all done it.)

Your final point is fair, its down to common sense. If you see a few allies attacking a single opponent, just leave them! They can handle it them selves. Adding one more more into the fight can cause a bit of an 'unworkable mess' I agree and the attitude of those who do join in are the ones who go in wanting the kill them selves.

Having too many on a single opponent in fact can reduce the level of awareness of your allies, as they are less likely to be attacked but the sudden left off of guard lets the opponent get that sneaky kill in.
 
Mr.X said:
A valiant effort, though it all seems fairly obvious, and I doubt the people here who will read it really need much help fighting noobs in seige servers, but still, nicely formatted.

Thank you and I agree that this isn't likely to reach the vast majority of players, but hopefully it should be a pointer to a few and I wrote it partly to generate discussion as well, so its not entirely pointless :wink:.

Scully said:
Running into the enemy and causing confusion seems to be a good way to counter being outnumbered. If you don't get a kill, they at least team injure each other.

Yes this is what I try to do as well, tends to work well against people who have no coordination. I know for a fact it fails if people do coordinate properly against you though.

The only thing I find that can really help you when outnumbered is use of the terrain. Backing up to a wall will cover your back to a degree or retreating into a choke point can remove a numerical advantage. You really need to know the terrain well though, getting stuck in a corner is suicide.

-------------------------

Another thing I would like to mention on the same lines is sort of the opposite of the 'blind siding' I mentioned in the OP. Quite often I will sneak up on some enemies, they might be archers or whatever. Most of the time players will be absolute cowards and back off, blatantly letting me get to their team mates who haven't noticed me yet. Personally I try to jump in front of the attacker in this situation to buy time for my ally to notice.

Also on the cowardice front, the number of times I jump in to help someone and then have them promptly run off and leave me fighting solo is quite disheartening :sad:.
 
Lord Rich said:
So the player nearest to the enemy should attempt to slow them down by simply engaging rather defensively until their ally has got the opponent out flanked.

Shouldn't you be attacking them offensively?

To me a defensive style of play is to let your enemy come into your range and generally block more than attack. When trying to surround a player you want to be forcing the enemy to block your attacks and if you can't stop them turning to block your ally's attack, being close enough for your attack to hit. Which means you have to keep fairly close to your opponent at all times during the surround and be attacking as often as possible, even if just to hit their shield/block. Otherwise it turns into a 1 vs 1 with someone else.
 
People have never teamworked much in public Warband games, really, they just don't see a point in doing it - everyone's going after a kill and noone cares if your teammate lives or dies. That's the simple truth to be honest. It's all different in clanmatches though, where deaths and kills both count.
 
crazyboy11 said:
Lord Rich said:
So the player nearest to the enemy should attempt to slow them down by simply engaging rather defensively until their ally has got the opponent out flanked.

Shouldn't you be attacking them offensively?

To me a defensive style of play is to let your enemy come into your range and generally block more than attack. When trying to surround a player you want to be forcing the enemy to block your attacks and if you can't stop them turning to block your ally's attack, being close enough for your attack to hit. Which means you have to keep fairly close to your opponent at all times during the surround and be attacking as often as possible, even if just to hit their shield/block. Otherwise it turns into a 1 vs 1 with someone else.

Pretty much what Papa Lazarou said. If you are attacking in order to apply pressure it creates opportunities for your opponent. The idea is to imply threat and keep them focused on you with the minimum possible risk. In some cases of this I have seen neither player really attempting a blow, the outnumbered enemy is hesitant because he is being surrounded and is afraid of you or your partner striking if he makes an attack and the engaging team mate not needing to make an attack because he knows that the enemy will soon be surrounded. So you get a sort of weird stalemate happen for a short time.

peers said:
Lord Rich said:
I play on siege servers all the time

I think I may have found the answer to your question.

Yeah I am in a clan for a reason :wink:, but if you want even a semblance of teamwork then you have to go to either siege or battle. 22nd siege actually doesn't do too bad for strategic cooperation between players, often I see a suggestion for an attack direction or a warning and usually a majority of players do listen to it. That's a different thing from low level tactical coordination of course, but technically the sort of coordination I am on about doesn't require any communications, so its perfectly possible on public servers.
 
Lord Rich said:
The only thing I find that can really help you when outnumbered is use of the terrain. Backing up to a wall will cover your back to a degree or retreating into a choke point can remove a numerical advantage. You really need to know the terrain well though, getting stuck in a corner is suicide.

I does work, if both of your opponents are together on one side of you or infront. The flaw is that it only works for 4 or 5 seconds when you back up against a wall and your opponent have some slight co ordination that he will get to the other side of where you are standing... leaving either your sides or your back exposed to be hit.
 
Pro tip: When a mass is fighting one guy, then should all put away their weapons and beat him to death with their fists. Safe, easy, prevents tks (usually) and mad fun to watch :smile: :smile: :smile:
 
findecanno said:
Pro tip: When a mass is fighting one guy, then should all put away their weapons and beat him to death with their fists. Safe, easy, prevents tks (usually) and mad fun to watch :smile: :smile: :smile:

Sadly wont work if they have armour on :razz:
 
I think that really it just depends on the skill level of the people involved in the fight. People in a 2 on 1 that are decent at the game tend to naturally move in the 'correct' way to disable the 1.

The frustration that probably prompted this post is when you are in a 2 v 1 where your partner doesn't know what he is doing and just acts as one huge hindrance to you getting the job done. There are plenty of times where you are trying to circle in one direction around a person and your partner will just move in the same way as you, cutting you off from even being able to attack the target and/or hitting you with their swing.

Really all you want to achieve in a group fight is to allow as many weapons to be able to hit the target at once, then it is just a matter of a little clever timing to sneak a hit in.

When I've been outnumbered the thing that messes me up the most is when someone holds an attack near me. This causes me to have to hold a block in one direction and doesn't really give me any time to do anything, easily letting a second person come up and attack. If I move to block person 2, then person 1 just releases their hit.

Another thing to do is skip turns. If you surround a person often they will block you, then turn to block the other, so you can usually just spam at them and hit them as they turn, or once again when they turn to face you, simply don't attack, and let your partner hit their back. If they turn back to block your partner just swing yourself.

I guess number one advice is keep your guard up, just because you are outnumbered doesn't mean you are invulnerable, and treat it as though every swing the target makes is coming your direction.
 
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