Greece.

[rebelknight]

Considering the treatment Athie has gotten from GD there... yes, Barky, please move to Greece pronto.

I would love to severely beat or many even kill some GD members, so that suits me!

Please go and try that.

One less retarded radical in the world.

 

[RalliX]

Nobody is expecting an instant payback. Saying "we'll pay back little at a time" is better than saying "**** you all very much and thanks for the free money".

Honestly, I think the main problem is interest creep, and this constant bailing out.
If the EU actually gave a **** about Greece recovering, they'd stop forcing loans, and cut the compounding interest.
"You'll pay back what we've given you, minus interest, plus inflation."

 

[Barky]

I don't understand what greek politicians are thinking when they insult their loangivers and then expect to get away with their depts.

Yes, calling loangiving countries troika and still giving Germans crap for WW2 (70 years ago) is insulting.

Oh ****, better not give a country crap for systemically killing 6 million people only 2 generations a go.

Please go and try that.

One less retarded radical in the world.

Figures that you'd cheer on GD.

Honestly, I think the main problem is interest creep, and this constant bailing out.
If the EU actually gave a **** about Greece recovering, they'd stop forcing loans, and cut the compounding interest.
"You'll pay back what we've given you, minus interest, plus inflation."

A good post ITT.

My main bone to pick with the whole situation is how ordinary people have been punished for the actions of their state by having austerity forced on them. I'm not looking to start a capitalism vs communism debate but it's undeniable that austerity has economically devastated the Greek population. If the EU cared about Greece, they'd encourage a stable economy with high employment not enforcing measures that lead to mass unemployment.

 

[rebelknight]

Please go and try that.

One less retarded radical in the world.

Figures that you'd cheer on GD.

GD are worthless extremist assholes
And so are you.
Extremists killing each other, i approve.
More foods and rooms for decent human being.

Oh ****, better not give a country crap for systemically killing 6 million people only 2 generations a go.

My main bone to pick with the whole situation is how ordinary people have been punished for the actions of their state

Hypocrisy.

 

[RalliX]

I'm not looking to start a capitalism vs communism debate but it's undeniable that austerity has economically devastated the Greek population.

Perhaps, but decreases in spending and increases in taxes are both symptomatic of overspending out of weakness. It's how they got into this bad spot in the first place.

What do I mean? I mean an economy is not a fixed pie, and that spending by the government is fine so long as it's efficiently done and in moderation relative to revenues.

Politicians who promise too much spending, so that they get elected, are then are presented with two choices when they actually get into office.
1: Don't spend that money, or make the people foot the bill, damaging your relations with voters.
2: Spend the money, don't pay for it, and ultimately leave your nation's economy at the whim of foreign powers.

Look at these numbers:

€17,400 GDP per capita. (nominal; 2012)
Average gross salary €19,807 (2012; annual)

Revenues 47.0% of GDP (2013 est.)
Expenses 59.2% of GDP (2013 est.)

These aren't the exact numbers of course, but this means that on average each Greek is being taxed about half of their income, and that this is still not enough.

 

[Barky]

I'm not looking to start a capitalism vs communism debate but it's undeniable that austerity has economically devastated the Greek population.

Perhaps, but decreases in spending and increases in taxes are both symptomatic of overspending out of weakness. It's how they got into this bad spot in the first place.

What do I mean? I mean an economy is not a fixed pie, and that spending by the government is fine so long as it's efficiently done and in moderation relative to revenues.

Politicians who promise too much spending, so that they get elected, are then are presented with two choices when they actually get into office.
1: Don't spend that money, or make the people foot the bill, damaging your relations with voters.
2: Spend the money, don't pay for it, and ultimately leave your nation's economy at the whim of foreign powers.

Look at these numbers:

€17,400 GDP per capita. (nominal; 2012)
Average gross salary €19,807 (2012; annual)

Revenues 47.0% of GDP (2013 est.)
Expenses 59.2% of GDP (2013 est.)

These aren't the exact numbers of course, but this means that on average each Greek is being taxed about half of their income, and that this is still not enough.

This world is depressing and I want out.

 

[rebelknight]

This world is depressing and I want out.

I approve of that.
May i recommend the planet Mercury?

 

[BlackTide]

Just as Greece starts to see growth, falling unemployment, a primary budget surplus and is able to sell its bonds again, a leftist party pops up to ruin it all. The left got them into the mess, the right starts to pull them out and suddenly the left drags them back down again. Promises are going to have to be broken to make this work on an economic level.

隐藏

Hi Barky, honey <3

 

[Barky]

This world is depressing and I want out.

I approve of that.
May i recommend the planet Mercury?

What's with your weird obsession with quoting my posts and putting some **** attempt at a par below? I don't care, lol.

Just as Greece starts to see growth, falling unemployment, a primary budget surplus and is able to sell its bonds again, a leftist party pops up to ruin it all. The left got them into the mess, the right starts to pull them out and suddenly the left drags them back down again. Promises are going to have to be broken to make this work on an economic level.

Hi Barky, honey <3

PASOK were not left wing whilst in power. Claiming that PASOK are actually leftist is like thinking Obama is a socialist. PASOK are like Labour in the sense that they sold out their leftist principles once neoliberalism became popular. PASOK largely enforced the will of the the EU and look where that got Greece.

Basically, PASOK is now a right wing neoliberal party. So claiming that 'the left' is responsible for Greece's economic devastation is nonsense. I don't think SYRIZA are as radical as people in this thread are making them out to be, they're more similar to the Greens (in the UK). The rich won't be shot in the street workers won't seize the means of production (unfortunately).

 

[RalliX]

Claiming that PASOK are actually leftist is like thinking Obama is a socialist.

But Barky, Conservatives such as me and Blacktide DO think this.
I hope I'm not putting words in Black's mouth with that statement.

I mean frankly, Socialism is the idea that you can and should try to modify the social structure of a nation using the state's power. Seems to me that this is precisely how Obama feels. He seems to have become a little bit more moderate though, mind you. He's just not a communist.

You rag on him for not being left enough, while we rag on him for being too left.

 

[BlackTide]

PASOK were not left wing whilst in power. Claiming that PASOK are actually leftist is like thinking Obama is a socialist. PASOK are like Labour in the sense that they sold out their leftist principles once neoliberalism became popular. PASOK largely enforced the will of the the EU and look where that got Greece.

Basically, PASOK is now a right wing neoliberal party. So claiming that 'the left' is responsible for Greece's economic devastation is nonsense. I don't think SYRIZA are as radical as people in this thread are making them out to be, they're more similar to the Greens (in the UK). The rich won't be shot in the street workers won't seize the means of production (unfortunately).

Papandreou is part of the "Socialsit International". Intentionally excessive Government Spending for almost any reason beyond infrastructure investment is enough for me to consider a party as being leftists and having taken leave of their senses. Greece got to where it is because it taking have firm control over its finances, Samaras was the necessary response to address that and regain confidence, as he appears to have achieved, until now.

The Greens are completely ****ing bananas, if you're making the comparison with the Greens then people are rightly worried. Another bunch of irresponsible Greek politicians here to make other countries pay for their excesses.

As much as I'd love to argue with you in this thread Barky, such a course of action has a low rate of return and your tendency to disappear abruptly always makes me sad   

But Barky, Conservatives such as me and Blacktide DO think this.
I hope I'm not putting words in Black's mouth with that statement.

I would probably consider myself more of a Classical Liberal, but a Conservative at a stretch, considering that most liberal principles aren't upheld by parties declaring themselves as being liberal.

 

[Barky]

Claiming that PASOK are actually leftist is like thinking Obama is a socialist.

But Barky, Conservatives such as me and Blacktide DO think this.
I hope I'm not putting words in Black's mouth with that statement.

I mean frankly, Socialism is the idea that you can and should try to modify the social structure of a nation using the state's power. Seems to me that this is precisely how Obama feels. He seems to have become a little bit more moderate though, mind you. He's just not a communist.

You rag on him for not being left enough, while we rag on him for being too left.

Socialism has a specific political meaning, it not just the vague definition you've given it. Obama isn't a socialist because he doesn't believe in the radical redistribution of wealth, nor destroying the influence of the 'free market' over the economy. He is not attempting to challenge the power of the rich, so he can't be a socialist. How can a man who twice received massive corporate donations for his reelection campaigns (the Dems rake in more money than the GOP) be a socialist? The fact that you believe that he is a socialist is stunningly naive, and betrays your utter ignorance of what socialism actually is.

Also, how are societies not MASSIVELY influenced by the power of the state?

Papandreou is part of the "Socialsit International". Intentionally excessive Government Spending for almost any reason beyond infrastructure investment is enough for me to consider a party as being leftists and having taken leave of their senses. Greece got to where it is because it taking have firm control over its finances, Samaras was the necessary response to address that and regain confidence, as he appears to have achieved, until now.

The Greens are completely ****ing bananas, if you're making the comparison with the Greens then people are rightly worried. Another bunch of irresponsible Greek politicians here to make other countries pay for their excesses.

As much as I'd love to argue with you in this thread Barky, such a course of action has a low rate of return and your tendency to disappear abruptly always makes me sad   

So 'investing in healthcare and education' makes someone a leftist? Do they count as 'infrastructure' or not?

Isn't any in-power political party 'leftist' by your definition then? Whose properly right wing?

It didn't appear that Samaras inspired much confidence in his own country, considering he got voted out. Who did he inspire confidence in then? Investors?

I'm not arsed about what the IMF or the World Bank thinks of Greece. Literally do not care what those vultures have to say. What matters to me is that the 'excesses' of a comprehensive social safety net exist. That's all I care about. Ordinary people should never be punished for the actions of their rulers. The problem with conservatives is that you don't have any imagination.

I would probably consider myself more of a Classical Liberal, but a Conservative at a stretch, considering that most liberal principles aren't upheld by parties declaring themselves as being liberal.

Oh God no.

(I had to read Adam Smith last year as a part of uni. It was the biggest load of waffling ****e I've ever read. **** him and his pin factory.)

 

[SwadianJedi]

What's wrong with Classical Liberals?

 

[BlackTide]

Generating a budget deficit as a result of routine expenditure being too high is unacceptable. If your investment in healthcare and education were to be a matter of routine expenditure, running costs, wages etc with no discernible return then that would fall under improper spending. Though education is a valuable part in increasing the quality of human capital. If the sump cost of building a school tips the balance but the maintainance stays within the bounds of the budget then I may be worth while. Road, train, air, water infrastructure are more typical examples of suitable investments with returns to boot.

Estonia has some issues but it's the most interesting nation that I've studied, they've got their heads in the right place. The party that I support in my own country does not adhere to my principles, both social and economic but they're the closest I can get.

Indeed, investor confidence and market confidence was being restored, an essential requirement to returning to economic stability and sustainable growth.

I don't understand the notion that the electorate should not bear responsibility for the actions of the officials that they elected. The people willingly sat by as consecutive governments incurred debt and began increasing public expenditure. To separate people and state so crudely in a democracy is disingenuous and scapegoating.

If Tsipras wants to deliver on his promises then Greece will need some liquidity and someone willing to buy Greek bonds, defaulting on the debt is not going to achieve that. Who would dare lend to the Greeks if they cancel significant amounts of debt? So he'll either ruin the country or follow the same road as Samaras or Papandreau after they discovered the difficulty of their situation. Greece will have voted out an honest man for a con man to the same ends.

Adam Smith had some luminary ideas for the time, and whilst economic thought has progressed since then with further contributions, there are a few principles at the heart of classical thought. There is no philosopher or economist that I agree with entirely but there is no harm in dabbling between them. Mill didn't have a clue about economics but his views on Liberty and morality were pretty solid.

 

[RalliX]

Socialism has a specific political meaning, it not just the vague definition you've given it. Obama isn't a socialist because he doesn't believe in the radical redistribution of wealth, nor destroying the influence of the 'free market' over the economy. He is not attempting to challenge the power of the rich, so he can't be a socialist. How can a man who twice received massive corporate donations for his reelection campaigns (the Dems rake in more money than the GOP) be a socialist? The fact that you believe that he is a socialist is stunningly naive, and betrays your utter ignorance of what socialism actually is.

Also, how are societies not MASSIVELY influenced by the power of the state?

Oh, so because he's not a borderline communist he can't be defined by anyone as a socialist, despite the fact that the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, with the rich footing much of the government's bills. And no, it's not like he would ever support legislation that goes further in that direction. Naw.

You really ought to learn that one doesn't need to hate the rich to be a lefty. Nay, you only need to have them by the balls and squeeze them for their worth with subtle threats, like closing tax loopholes.
#StateOfTheUnion

I would probably consider myself more of a Classical Liberal

#OldLeft
#BestRight

 

[Jhessail]

Not a single post of merit in the thread so far. Good job chaps.

#1: Greece isn't leaving the EU, Greece isn't leaving the Eurozone - this has been confirmed by Syriza after they won the election.

#2: Calling EU/IMF/ECB a Troika is not an insult. Because that is what a Troika is - a trio. If you don't know what a word means, ****ing Google it.

#3: Syriza isn't refusing to pay the loans that were given to Greece. They want to renegotiate the terms that the Troika forced on Greece.

#4: Greece only has to pay back a relatively small amount of money next summer, which they are entirely capable of. They have many, many, many more years to pay back the rest.

#5: Pasok wasn't cleaning up corruption. No matter what, Greece would have returned to its old ways in a decade under the old parties. In that sense, Syriza is a breath of fresh air and might actually achieve something, as they do not owe "favours" to everyone the way the old parties do.

#6: If you actually read on even some of the stuff that they promise to tackle, you would understand why they got so many votes.

Perhaps injecting some actual facts into this thread might steer the discussion back to the realm of reality and reason. Instead of posting clueless political cartoons and fencing with imaginary windmills.

 

[RalliX]

Not a single post of merit in the thread so far. Good job chaps.

隐藏: Jhessail Enters Thread

 

[Bluehawk]

In so far as it invites a comparison to the kangaroo courts of the NKVD that sentenced people to death on limited or falsified evidence, it could be derogatory.

 

[PinCussion]

In so far as it invites a comparison to the kangaroo courts of the NKVD that sentenced people to death on limited or falsified evidence, it could be derogatory.

Yeah, I could swear that something in the Sovjet union was called "The Troika", or are you talking about something else?

And yeah, it is realy unfair to attack modern germany for something that happened 70 years ago, yes, it should not be forgoten, no, you should not tear open an old wound and pour acid into it.

@Antonis, nothing personal, I'm only venting against greek politicians and rude protesters.

 

[Swissky]

Please don't turn this into a political debate. There are other threads for that.
(With ideologies that is)