Greece.

[Antonis]

 

[sifis172]

the corruption is largelly due to foreign countries and the e.u.

Yes, blame the corruption on someone else.    And do you know what? Even if your example is true, bribing is corrupt on both sides. The briber does not magically transform the bribee into a corrupt individual. Hell, quite often the bribee is fishing for the bribe.

i'm not blaming the corruption on someone else. greece has a great deal of the responsibility
here, if you can count as greece a large percentage of politicians (maybe a huge percentage),
and the corrupt big bussiness.

the thing about corruption in greece, is that around 1980, the popular political parties started
giving away privileges of all sort, in order to create large private armies of voters. these (the voters)
would have a reason to vote for the parties that helped them (mainly by aquiring jobs, in the public sector).

now, the corruption that is related with the e.u and germany, comes from another
perspective. the loans that f.e germany gave greece, were not from the kindness of their
heart. exchanges were required. to name a few, these were f.e giving certain german corporations
the construction of certain (and these are not few) works* like roads, airports, stadiums and so on.
these works were very highly over-priced. with the bill ending up in the people, in the form of taxation.

off-course a big sum was given to politicians, for their help* (that means a buy-off), and to some greek
engineers or architects and what-not. this kind of business greatly destroyed the wealth of
greece, for whatever work of public benefice created in the country was created with a big
ammount of money.

to make things simple the greek goverment took loans,
which they were bribed by foreigners,
for the construction of works,          (that many times were only in paper)
then gave the right of construction to foreign companies,
which over-priced whatever they had to built,
and had payed-bribed in the first place to aquire those jobs.

an example that has been quite known over here is the construction of a
network of highways. the work was estimated in 40000 euros per meter,
but when the bill came, it had actually reached 250000 euros per meter!

Its not correct to count money going off to pay the debts as money not reaching the people of Greece, because the debt they would otherwise be need to be payed from their own money. Its important to do that to try to reduce the interest its producing.
But it does raise questions, like why take a big second loan and use part of it to cover the first loan instead of taking a small loan and use it solemnly for the economic infrastructure? All these extra deals play to the hands of the rich few that actually make money out of all this.

your logic is correct. but the whole question of the debt creation is illogical.
the thing about the debt is that the majority of the public wealth,
and the majority of each families wealth is going to the repayment of the debt.

sectors of the public that had an excellent account, meaning that they were highly
providing a surplus each month (i mean that they gained more than what they were spending).
like the telecommunications, and the public service of power (electricity), were privatized.
the public sector was sold out for penies during the last 5 years.

if you take the whole ammount that went in the debt repayement each year, it is something
like this.
in 2009 the debt ammount was in 120% of the gdp. (gdp: the national yearly ammount gained).
after 5 years of austerity with most of the money gained, going in the debt repayment,
the debt grew to 180%! of the gdp.
that means that even when the whole economy is structured and functioned in a way
that the only goal is to repay the debt, the debt doesn't become smaller, it just grows.

it is something like borrowing money from the mafia, the ammount never shortens,
and while you're in debt you actually belong to them. 

don't think a gossip from a few sailor means anything, its very easy to find soldiers complaining about perfectly fine things in an army, especially in the lower ranks. Also, Germany has a good name for her subs and is a big exporter for it, I heard only good things about the ones Israel bought. Plus, they usually get bought empty - little more then moving fish. So if it malfunctions it doesn't necessarily mean it was Germany's fault rather then something non German added later.

you might be correct. i really don't know what has happened in this case, except
what rumours are circulating. but what has jumped latelly about that particular
example, is that a politician created an off-shore company right after that deal.
sending his money abroad. he was bribed by the company that sold the submarines,
the submarines themselves were bought many times beyond their price.
the whole package was paid by taxpayers.
the sad thing is that even when the whole thing has made front-pages, there still
hasn't been ordered a justice investigation, while the whole scandal will be burried
as many things in the past.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

why do you
choose to
format
like this
?

 

[Antonis]

Because he's Cretan. And they're known for their poetic nature. 

 

[DeGoblin]

it is something like borrowing money from the mafia, the ammount never shortens,
and while you're in debt you actually belong to them. 

It does create a problem but I think we reached a point we all know the full interest will never be paid, but the increasing interest is one of the major reasons that will force Greece to try to pay it back in the near future. If waiting without paying it wouldn't do much trouble Europe could have forgot getting their money back. And like I said, money does lose its worth with time, so its natural to have some interest.

If you had someone owing you money but he reached a state he could never keep up with the interest, then the worst thing you could do is to stop increasing the interest. You would never see your money again, and if you did see it in 200 years it would be worth much much less. Best thing you could do is release him from chunks of the debt in return for non financial things he can do for you, sounds like the mafia doesn't it? But it makes sense. As long as its done in a manner that will allow the dude to free himself eventually.
Put short, Europe should definetly keep the interests up and ask for stuff like political influence in return to releasing chunks of the debt. But it should be done in a manner that Greece would one day break free, and not stay a puppet for more then, say, 30 years.

the sad thing is that even when the whole thing has made front-pages, there still
hasn't been ordered a justice investigation, while the whole scandal will be burried
as many things in the past.

Corruption is perhaps the number one reason for the fall of empires in history. Usually when a country gets this bad she crushes and gets rebuilt better then before. Just like the Ottoman Empire turning into Turkey. I think Greece needs something like that. This level of corruption is too much, now when its effecting all of Europe its more then Greece's problem.
(A bit political correctness- Im not saying other countries dont have corruption but no doubt Greece reached a level much higher then the usual)

 

[sifis172]

DeGoblin, yes i can see what you say.
i don't think that the debt is structured in a way, that the ultimate and final
goal is for people to be able to break-through the debt.

in the end debt is an excellent way of controlling whatever you might feel
is worth of controlling. if you take f.e the world debt, it has skyrocketed
to 199 trillion dol. this makes no-sense when the world's wealth has doubled
since the 70.

@Antonis, i just try to make it readable , i'm from athens

the sad thing is that even when the whole thing has made front-pages, there still
hasn't been ordered a justice investigation, while the whole scandal will be burried
as many things in the past.

Corruption is perhaps the number one reason for the fall of empires in history. Usually when a country gets this bad she crushes and gets rebuilt better then before. Just like the Ottoman Empire turning into Turkey. I think Greece needs something like that. This level of corruption is too much, now when its effecting all of Europe its more then Greece's problem.
(A bit political correctness- Im not saying other countries dont have corruption but no doubt Greece reached a level much higher then the usual)

assuming that there is no financial bubble in turkey 

 

[DeGoblin]

DeGoblin, yes i can see what you say.
i don't think that the debt is structured in a way, that the ultimate and final
goal is for people to be able to break-through the debt.

in the end debt is an excellent way of controlling whatever you might feel
is worth of controlling. if you take f.e the world debt, it has skyrocketed
to 199 trillion dol. this makes no-sense when the world's wealth has doubled
since the 70.

Yea part of Europe would probably try to keep Greece in debt, which is bad and can bring things out of control from all players eventually. I hope enough people up there don't want this either.
The best way out is probably something in the middle of letting Greece  go and abusing Greece.

For the 70's, its a good example for money losing worth. Not only massive amount of inflation happened but the population grew in number and income as well as the general world industry. You could do a lot with a dollar back then, now its toilet paper.  (relatively)

 

[Scar]

Funny how everybody thinks that Greeks are so corrupted when the whole of Europe and especially Germany stinks of corruption.

What?

Is Germany in need of desperate help or Greece? Wait, I think it was Greece. Please go ahead and explain me how bad corruption is in Germany - so badly that it sticks - it can't possibily be that bad when Germany is one of the few countries that sort of came out alright after the crisis.

 

[Scar]

I for one would take it as a compliment when half a dozen countries focus their whole combined effort into ruining one tiny country as the sole reason for their existence.

I don't know if you are simply joking around because you find my feelings on the matter amusing but you should know that the only thing you did for Greece the last five years is indeed ruining it and all that on the grounds that we are corrupted blah blah when you are as ****ing corrupted as we are.

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And that ****ing tiny country has still 10 million people living in it you smartass. Alas I get it, when did Germans cared for anything else than causing the suffering of others but their own.

But it was working, to some extent at least, no?

To which extent if I may ask so that I can understand your point of view?

EDIT. My apologies. I forgot that I should expect only democratic and just actions from a government which is being lead by a former FDJ member

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Jesus man, **** off already. People like you are the reason why Greece is doing badly. You ****ed up for decades, my friend, you alone. Not the Germans, not anyone else but you. It is the fault of your people, the fault of your government and not the fault of the German people or the German government. Stop throwing your xenophobic bull**** around in here, it is utterly disgusting to read posts like yours. Don't you find it redicioulus yourself that you are talking about corruption in Germany, when it is one of the few countries left on this planet that is still doing decently after the crisis? Isn't it funny that it's German tax payers pumping millions into Greece trying to get your country running again? If it's so bad for you to stay in the Euro, just leave. It's not like the Euro needs Greece. It would be a symbolic failure, yes, but it wouldn't make the Euro crumble or weaken the Euro zone.

PS: Ask yourself this question - If everything was fine in Greece, your government did a good job, why did Germany suddenly step in trying to help?

 

[Vraelomon]

Man, what a horrible idea this thread was. What imbecile thought of a thread for Greece?

 

[TheLoneWolf1]

Jesus man, **** off already. People like you are the reason why Greece is doing badly. You ****ed up for decades, my friend, you alone. Not the Germans, not anyone else but you. It is the fault of your people, the fault of your government and not the fault of the German people or the German government. Stop throwing your xenophobic bull**** around in here, it is utterly disgusting to read posts like yours. Don't you find it redicioulus yourself that you are talking about corruption in Germany, when it is one of the few countries left on this planet that is still doing decently after the crisis? Isn't it funny that it's German tax payers pumping millions into Greece trying to get your country running again? If it's so bad for you to stay in the Euro, just leave. It's not like the Euro needs Greece. It would be a symbolic failure, yes, but it wouldn't make the Euro crumble or weaken the Euro zone.

PS: Ask yourself this question - If everything was fine in Greece, your government did a good job, why did Germany suddenly step in trying to help?

Your post only shows me that you have you head stuck so deep inside your ass that you can barely understand what's happening around you. I've posted even more sources indicating tha Germany is a lot more corrupted that what they want to appear in this thread and there are a lot more online if you take the time to research instead of sprouting bull****. Other than that it is hilarious to defend a county' transparency from the fact that the crisis doesn't affect them.

In fact Germany makes riches out of the crisis in the rest of Europe. When all this started investors transfered big amounts of money to the low-risk german bonds because of the rising crisis to the Eurozone. Especially after 2009 the german bond yields reached the bottom and in some cases (for example 5-year german bonds) the interest rates reached negative levels.

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That means that Germany not only doesn't pay to get loans, investors pay Germany even more money to protect their funds. Germany borrows money with extremely low interest rates and then lends the same money to Greece and other countries with high interest rates. Do you know what this is called? It's called usury you dump ****. You shouldn't forget as well that all that money that the investors of the South transferred to the german bonds included a lot of dirty money as well no? Each year Germany makes 8-17 billions of euros from this. As Paul Krugman writes in one of his articles

Unfortunately, German politicians have never explained the math to their constituents. Instead, they’ve taken the lazy path: moralizing about the irresponsibility of borrowers, declaring that debts must and will be paid in full, playing into stereotypes about shiftless southern Europeans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/opinion/a-game-of-chicken.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fpaul-krugman

There is no doupt that Greece has been and still is in many cases a corrupted country. That doesn't mean that we will be forced to follow a program that makes everything worse while people here are suffering (this is what you called if I read correctly "pumping millions to Greece to get your country running again") which fact seems to be eluding (as many other facts like the one I mention in the above paragraph) all you righteous and fair forumites that come here and shout "how can you blame holy Germany for anything" and you Greeks stole that money, you had it coming" type of comments. Alas do not worry genius, if the negotiations fail we will be out of the euro in no time and then we will see if we were needed or not.

 

[Swissky]

Man, what a horrible idea this thread was. What imbecile thought of a thread for Greece?

ai cri evritim 

 

[Vraelomon]

I was actually mocking myself there, as it was initially my idea. 
But yeah, 

 

[SwadianJedi]

Other than Anti-Austerity, what does Syrzia actually want to do?

 

[TheLoneWolf1]

Other than Anti-Austerity, what does Syrzia actually want to do?

On the matter of dept repayment the greek government has already proposed two types of new bonds that could lessen our burden since the dept at this point is not viable and we are technically already bankrupt. http://rapidis.blogactiv.eu/2015/02/04/can-varoufakis-perpetual-bonds-be-a-smart-move/
It isn't going to be easy, we might not make it anyway but it is still better to look for alternatives than following a program that doesn't work and wait until they finally throw  you out.

There is also a lot of tax evasion in Greece that Syriza prepares to fight and fix the taxation rules for people in higher income layers who have been greatly favored until now. More will be cleared out in tomorrow's Eurogroup.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Do you know how they will tackle it?

 

[TheLoneWolf1]

I haven't heard very specific things about that matter to be honest. Only that the whole taxation system will be reconstructed since it is lacking in many areas. I believe the government has hired some foreign experts as well as requested aid from Europe for that matter.

 

[PinCussion]

@TheLoneWolf1: Man, you really have a stick up you butt about Germany.

@Scar: Well I have to say that Germany went and goofed up when they decided to gradualy shut down their nuclear plants and buy Russian gas, I would rather do the opposite, besides, when was the last time a freaking tsunami showed up over here?

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Ditching atomic power was a politic powerplay by the Merkel administration (or rather the part that is her party therein) to strengthen their own and weaken everyone else's position.
And blatant populism besides.
For years if not decades before the conservatives (Merkel's party) had been working to extend the time-frame of atomic power usage and everything related, while pretty much everyone else wanted out in one form or another.
After Fukushima they did a total 180 and forced the "ditch" through in record time while public opinion was in favour, leaving everyone else arguing against their outspoken position.

Merkel in particular is a master in shifting blame to partners and rivals from other parties but also and equally often to ones in her own. All the while actually doing nothing visible to the public eye.
It is and has been her modus operandi since the start, she learned from the best after all. Kohl, chancellor for 16 years.

 

[Scar]

Your post only shows me that you have you head stuck so deep inside your ass that you can barely understand what's happening around you. I've posted even more sources indicating tha Germany is a lot more corrupted that what they want to appear in this thread and there are a lot more online if you take the time to research instead of sprouting bull****. Other than that it is hilarious to defend a county' transparency from the fact that the crisis doesn't affect them.

I've expressed that badly. I wanted to say that you are not staying on topic. We are discussing Greece and their problems and you suddently start to rant about German corruption. What I wanted to say is, Germany is doing alright at the moment, we are not here to discuss German problems but Greek ones. Sure, increasing corruption will be a problem, but it is definitely not as bad as corruption as of right now. And dropping comments like Germans only have their own advantage in mind and posting pictures of Merkel with their FDJ friends with negative intention is quite offensive too.

In fact Germany makes riches out of the crisis in the rest of Europe. When all this started investors transfered big amounts of money to the low-risk german bonds because of the rising crisis to the Eurozone. Especially after 2009 the german bond yields reached the bottom and in some cases (for example 5-year german bonds) the interest rates reached negative levels.

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Yes, how dare Germany to be one of the most stable countries in the EU? And how dare the free market transfer all their money into a safe investment, just like every rational investor would do during a crisis? Bloody Germans.

That means that Germany not only doesn't pay to get loans, investors pay Germany even more money to protect their funds. Germany borrows money with extremely low interest rates and then lends the same money to Greece and other countries with high interest rates. Do you know what this is called? It's called usury you dump ****.

I know how the market works, thanks. If you want to change that you should probably write a book about your vision of how the free market should work or something.

There is no doupt that Greece has been and still is in many cases a corrupted country. That doesn't mean that we will be forced to follow a program that makes everything worse while people here are suffering (this is what you called if I read correctly "pumping millions to Greece to get your country running again") which fact seems to be eluding (as many other facts like the one I mention in the above paragraph) all you righteous and fair forumites that come here and shout "how can you blame holy Germany for anything" and you Greeks stole that money, you had it coming" type of comments.

So you think just headlessly investing will solve the problems? What do you want to invest in then? Agriculture, your biggest sector? Experts say that - despite excellent conditions - you won't be able to compete on the world market for the next years. I don't think there are a lot of products that are actually able to compete, and I don't think faking some sort of investment with money you borrowed from other European countries or institutions will solve long term issues like youth unemployement. I'm getting the impression you are trying to take the second step prior the first one. If you want someone to invest in Greece, you have to make sure you solved all structural problems before. That is my opinion at least.

Alas do not worry genius, if the negotiations fail we will be out of the euro in no time and then we will see if we were needed or not.

It would be a big blow to the "European concept" if you'd leave the Euro, yes. But it wouldn't cause major economical issues of other European countries. It seems super unlikely they will get their money back anyway, even if you stay in the Euro, so I guess they can just treat the money they borrowed Greece as sunk coasts. Anyway, the intention of the Euro was it to strengthen the European common market, right? Well, if you have a look at some export statistics, you will see that Greece doesn't seem to be very involved in it.