Greece.

[kurczak]

Baibai EU

Jury's still out on that imo. There are ways out, or at least reasonable attempts that can be given a chance if there is political will for them. Of course that would require either less short-sightedness and petty nationalism on the EU population's part or large scale consensus and willingness to kind of ignore the population's preferences in the short run on the political representation's part. Which I guess would maybe not be the democratic thing out there, unless you roll with the "your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion" chain of thought.

 

[Vicccard]

And with short-sightedness and petty nationalism on the rise, I doubt it.

 

[PinCussion]

And with short-sightedness and petty nationalism on the rise, I doubt it.

....yeah, well, at least it is not as bad as it was in 1933, yet.

 

[Mage246]

Don't say that, you'll make Vicccard sad.

 

[kurczak]

And with short-sightedness and petty nationalism on the rise, I doubt it.

Is it really though? The actively pro-intergration EPP/SD/ALDE parties still have a very comfortable, like two thirds, majority in the EP, the actively anti-European parties have 13 percent. The greens and various pinko day-dreamers that make up the rest are mostly pro EU. Germany, easily the most important MS voted overwhelmingly pro-EU- Countries like Spain or Italy which have been hit by the recession very hard (Spain, Italy) voted strongly pro-EU, even above the European average.

It is only Front National and UKIP that can be potentially a source of problems.

And all that bearing in mind that the EP elections are still considered a secondary political event and people vote more with their hearts than their brains in them. NF has a grand total of 2 seats in the French Parliament. We'll see in three months how serious the British are about UKIP. And if push comes to shove, ok Britain can leave and sulk in its post-imperial nostalgia on their foggy humid island if that's what they really want, so the only really real problem is France and once they get over their ego and accept that Germany is New York and they're New Jersey and fall back in line, every one else will too.

 

[Cernunos]

NF has a grand total of 2 seats

For now.
in 2012, 577 Politics elected. 13.60% french voted for NF (first turn). The result was 13.60% of 577 equals 2 politics elected for NF. Talk of an opressed minority...
Freedom of speech ? Democracy ? Lol.

Aww well, probably gonna be muted for that, like +50 at least....

 

[kurczak]

Yeah, well, it's the very point of the two round majority system to eliminate the fringes of the political spectrum and have a stable(-ish) majority in the legislative body. Democracy doesn't necessarily mean totally proportional representation.

Don't see what it has to do with freedom of speech.

 

[Cernunos]

when do you start a "fringe" ? 1% 5% 13 % 20 % my guess, 25 to 30 % in the next elections ?
http://www.interieur.gouv.fr/Elections/Les-resultats/Legislatives/elecresult__LG2012/%28path%29/LG2012/FE.html
Front de gauche (extrem left), 1.08% of voices, 10 seats....
NF, 3.66 % of votes, 2 seats....
Gimme a break, nationalists are an opressed people in France.

How can 2 people that represent 13% of the population (and now much more), speak among 577 ? How can they be heard ? But well, I am used to it.

But hey, the leftist paradise is coming Junkers welcome tzirpas like a prince.

Can't wait to go work in a kolhkoze.

 

[kurczak]

Front de gauche (extrem left), 1.08% of voices, 10 seats....
NF, 3.66 % of votes, 2 seats....

Yeah, well that happens in single representative constituencies. It can happen the other way around next time. There's no conspiracy to "oppress" FN in particular.

But hey, the leftist paradise is coming Junkers welcome tzirpas like a prince.
Can't wait to go work in a kolhkoze.

Uhm, you are aware the FN is in favor of nationalizing several "key" industries, right? They're more left than the Socialist Party in a lot of aspects.

How can 2 people that represent 13% of the population (and now much more), speak among 577 ? How can they be heard ? But well, I am used to it.

when do you start a "fringe" ? 1% 5% 13 % 20 % my guess, 25 to 30 % in the next elections ?

It's not about some absolute definitions of fringe. Fringe today, center tomorrow. Maybe. It has happened before. It's not just about percentage who explicitly favor a candidate or a party. It's also about how many people hate the candidate or the party regardless of what their ideal candidate of party is.

Case in point - Chirac's performance in the second round of the 2002 presidential elections against old Le Pen. Yeah sure, the same 17 percent voted for Le Pen in both rounds. But the entire rest of the country - socialists, neo-gaullists and other, who are otherwise bitter enemies supported whoever wasn't Le Pen. In this case Chirac. Thus demonstrating 83 percent of France considered Le Pen a fringe candidate. There was basically no swing in his favor in the second round. He just had his hard core fans, but he was totally unacceptable for everyone else.

 

[Cernunos]

Yeah, well that happens in single representative constituencies. It can happen the other way around next time. There's no conspiracy to "oppress" FN in particular.

where are you from ? It has never, so far, happened the way around But of course, NVM. In facts, 13%+ of french voters are represented by 2 people. Call it whatever, justify it with whatever leftist arguments you can come up with, I don't really care anyways. Opressing people won't prevent them from revolting, on the contrary, and the revolt is coming. The French are utterly fed up, but our stupid politicians can't face the truth. Watch the next elections in France, it's gonna be as funny as the greek ones

   

But hey, the leftist paradise is coming Junkers welcome tzirpas like a prince.
    Can't wait to go work in a kolhkoze.

Uhm, you are aware the FN is in favor of nationalizing several "key" industries, right? They're more left than the Socialist Party in a lot of aspects..

Definitely. I was not comparing leftist to NF, I was just talking about leftists in Europe...
I was trying to keep this subject about greece on topic...

 

[kurczak]

It has never, so far, happened the way around But of course, NVM.

Well, if FN has its electorate distributed evenly across the country, then yeah, it's hard to gain seats in a majority system. It happens in the UK, it happens in the US, it happens everywhere they have this system. Doesn't mean it's targeted specifically against FN.

In facts, 13%+ of french voters are represented by 2 people. Call it whatever, justify it with whatever leftist arguments you can come up with, I don't really care anyways. Opressing people won't prevent them from revolting, on the contrary, and the revolt is coming. The French are utterly fed up, but our stupid politicians can't face the truth. Watch the next elections in France, it's gonna be as funny as the greek ones

So which number are we talking? 13 or 6? First or second round? In any case, not having every wacko in the government or not having "enough" representatives is not oppression, that's a narcissist first-world abuse of the word par excellence, si je peux me permettre l'expression The only difference if FN had 10, 20 or 30 more representatives is that they would talk more in the Assembly. They would be still be out of effective power, because neither 13 nor 6 percent is majority and virtually everyone on the French political scene would rather take hot pokers up the butt than cooperate with NF. That's, you know, part of being on the fringe.

I will definitely be watching the next French elections, but they are 2 and a half years. A week is a long time in politics, as the saying goes, so a lot of things can happen in the meanwhile. And so far FN has always been just a conjunctural protest vote for one term and they can easily fail just like they failed in 2007 after their peak in late 90s.

 

[Cernunos]

Whatever.
Next élections are not in 2,5 years.
2nd round, the fact that 3.66% voters FN have 2 représentatives and the fact that 3.60% ecologists have 16 seems fine to you.
That's exactly the kind of democratic/freedom of speech oppression I am talking about, thanks.
NVM.

si je peux me permettre l'expression

that's hypocrite, I can't prevent you from using it

 

[PinCussion]

Heh, 13% of a people trying to revolt. Sounds more like target practice for the french army than something to be scared of.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

But hey, the leftist paradise is coming

You seem to have a singular obsession with 'Leftists' and it's getting kind of old.

I'm just waiting for you to bust out some rhetoric about how communists are taking control of Europe and we must band together to fight for our freedom.

 

[Cernunos]

13% of voters. In 2012. I would say 20 or 25 % now.And they can't really express themselves, because nationalism is baaaaaaad. Leftism is goooooooood. But in the secrecy of the vote, truth will sadly be revealed. Yes, sadly. I don't rejoice over the coming civil war (we have already soldiers , in arms, all over our Streets, fighting for their lives against other "french" http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/03/soldiers-attacked-nice-france ).

 

[Jhessail]

You're going to be so disappointed in the next election when FN fails to go over 15%. I bet you're going to come up with more kooky conspiracy theories, how the LEFTISTS!!! manipulated the results or something.

 

[Cernunos]

You seem to have a singular obsession with 'Leftists' and it's getting kind of old.

Yeah, I guess that if I had a singular obsession with nationalists, it would be "cool".

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Nah, I generally find it annoying when people can't look at things with some level objectivity, it doesn't really matter to much to me what "side" they have chosen.

If all of your posts included: "The fascist paradise is coming! The Nazis are coming back! The Nationalists will soon be sending all of us to the reeducation camps and throwing all foreigners in jail!" or something similar it would also be pretty silly to me.

 

[PinCussion]

@ Cernunos: And soon I guess you will say that the Foreign Legion are working with the "Leftists".

Most of those "leftists" probably aren't to the left anyway, they simply don't agree with your views.

 

[Mage246]

Nah, I generally find it annoying when people can't look at things with some level objectivity, it doesn't really matter to much to me what "side" they have chosen.

If all of your posts included: "The fascist paradise is coming! The Nazis are coming back! The Nationalists will soon be sending all of us to the reeducation camps and throwing all foreigners in jail!" or something similar it would also be pretty silly to me.

Not that a nationalist with the profile text "A 1000 miles trekk starts with a first step." inspires much confidence in that regard.