Greece.

[Swadius 2.0]

Didn't Greece lie about its numbers, though?

They did, but I think you can hardly blame the common everyday worker for this though. It's not like people there are taught investigative accountancy as a standard in primary education. I think one of the weirder parts to this is that a lot of greeks blame the Germans when the people most responsible are presumably in their own country and could be brought to a court of law to be held accountable.

 

[Ambalon]

The common everyday worker is part of the electorate. I understand that people, on an individual level, aren't to blame. But, unless there's violent repression, it's the people's blame for electing X and Y politician or not doing something about it when X and Y politicians turn out to be too incompetent.
This is exactly what happens here, too. Of course the politicians are already corrupt and [sometimes] simply ****e at their jobs, but someone put them there and let them stay there.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

As far as I know, Greece wasn't doing all that differently from some other Euro nations prior to the crisis, was there a reason you think for the electorate to suspect that the politicians were inept, or incompetent?

 

[Vicccard]

Maybe because corruptness is the norm down there?

 

[DeGoblin]

Pretty sure that the Israelis are an even more gigantic money sink than than the Greeks.

It really is.

Its a common missfact. Almost all the 'aid 'money coming from America has to be spend on their products, which are silly expensive and take the job from the local companies. It also forbids our companies from selling the high-tech stuff to countries like Russia or China because all the equipment has at least some American parts in it and USA wouldn't want that. A bit like what's happening with Greece, the more debt they will want to erase the more of a 'puppet' they will become in the international affairs.

 

[Austupaio]

Not really a missfact, the money is poured into Israel and stays there, in the form of military equipment and infrastructure. Most of which is then blown away on Palestinians.

 

[DeGoblin]

The money stays the US but the arms go to Israel, as a result Israel's arms manufacturers stay small and dependent on the American ones while forbidden to trade internationally. In other words its a way to bribe the competition away. A lot of money not recieved from the 'aid' is eventually also spend on the American products although other countries can offer the same things cheaper. Needless to add, the jobs stay in the US as well as the money.

 

[Austupaio]

Israel's arms manufacturers stay small and dependent on the American ones while forbidden to trade internationally

Wut.

Yeah, I'll be sure to let IWI and IMI know that, apparently, they are small industries that can't trade internationally.

 

[kurczak]

Didn't Greece lie about its numbers, though?

They did, but the sexed up numbers were still pretty bad, so it's not like the banks could claim "oh but we thought they were the next Luxembourg based on the numbers." Plus it's not a binary choice between bad banks/good Greeks or good banks/bad Greeks. The responsibility for the Euro debt crisis is not really a zero sum game, admitting that there are deeper structural problems doesn't mean the Greek governments didn't act like kind of dickheads. The Greek lied about their numbers, but there are countries in a very similar situation (including Italy, the third largest economy in the Eurozone) who didn't commit any fraud (or at least as far as we know now, haha). The whole Eurozone obviously need some remodelling. The strong Euro, a currency they have no control over, makes it easy for the "poor" countries to borrow money, but there is no serious fiscal oversight. Every Member State is for all practical purposes still completely free to make whatever budget strikes their fancy. The Stability and Growth Pact is a joke, when France and Germany broke it (oh yeah the good, honest and hard working Germans ran a technically illegal budget deficit for years), nothing happened, so quelle surprise the weaker southern economies took it as an encouragement to borrow ever more.

 

[DeGoblin]

Wut.

Yeah, I'll be sure to let IWI and IMI know that, apparently, they are small industries that can't trade internationally.

It's all relative mate. I have family working in these places.

 

[Radalan]

Wut.

Yeah, I'll be sure to let IWI and IMI know that, apparently, they are small industries that can't trade internationally.

It's all relative mate. I have family working in these places.

Yeah, bull--****.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/08/201381410565517125.html

The film's release this month in the United States follows news that Israeli sales of weapons and military systems hit a record high last year of $7.5bn, up from $5.8bn the previous year. A decade ago, Israeli exports were worth less than $2bn.

Israel is now ranked as one of the world's largest arms exporters - a considerable achievement for a country smaller than New York.

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2013-07-23/jonathan-cook-israels-thriving-arms-trade-is-a-setback-to-peace-agreement/

Last month, defence analysts Jane’s put Israel in sixth place, ahead of China and Italy, both major weapons producers. Surveys that include Israel’s growing covert trade put it even higher, in fourth place, ahead of Britain and Germany, and beaten only by the United States, Russia and France.

The extent of Israel’s success in this market can be gauged by a simple mathematical calculation. With record sales last year of $7 billion (Dh25.7 billion), Israel earned nearly $1,000 from the arms trade per capita – up to 10 times the per capita income the US derives from its manufacture of weapons.

 

[Captured Joe]

I didn't know France was a major weapon exporter (apart from jets).

 

[DeGoblin]

Nice sources.
I'm not arguing its a small industry but that its relatively smaller then it could be, if high tech weapons would be to be freely sold to countries like Russia and China. The advanced technology is sold almost only American allies like Britain, India, etc. I'm not saying the aid money is bad deal for Israel, far from it. I'm saying the US benefits from it too unlike the usual stigma.

 

[Jhessail]

Oh wow, those goal posts are leaving burning skidmarks, the way you're hauling them around 

as a result Israel's arms manufacturers stay small and dependent on the American ones while forbidden to trade internationally

Just so you can refresh your memory. I'm sure your friends and relatives would love to get pay raises and Hanukkah bonuses but your claims are utter crap. The only limit that US puts on Israel is that American tech - or systems where American tech is prominent - cannot be resold. That hasn't stopped Israel from selling everything from high-tech ATGMs (Spike) to pistols and everything between. Plus, do you really think that something like the Iron Dome would have happened without American money and technology?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel

Israel is one of the world's major exporters of military equipment, accounting for 10% of the world total in 2007. Three Israeli companies were listed on the 2010 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute index of the world's top 100 arms-producing and military service companies: Elbit Systems, Israel Aerospace Industries and RAFAEL.[1][2]

Israeli defense equipment exports have reached 7 billion U.S. dollars in 2012, making it a 20 percent increase from the amount of defense-related exports in 2011. Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[6][7][8] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel's largest arms market in the world.[9][10]

So it's time to eat that hat and admit you made a silly claim.

Didn't Greece lie about its numbers, though?

They did, but the sexed up numbers were still pretty bad, so it's not like the banks could claim "oh but we thought they were the next Luxembourg based on the numbers." Plus it's not a binary choice between bad banks/good Greeks or good banks/bad Greeks. The responsibility for the Euro debt crisis is not really a zero sum game, admitting that there are deeper structural problems doesn't mean the Greek governments didn't act like kind of dickheads. The Greek lied about their numbers, but there are countries in a very similar situation (including Italy, the third largest economy in the Eurozone) who didn't commit any fraud (or at least as far as we know now, haha). The whole Eurozone obviously need some remodelling. The strong Euro, a currency they have no control over, makes it easy for the "poor" countries to borrow money, but there is no serious fiscal oversight. Every Member State is for all practical purposes still completely free to make whatever budget strikes their fancy. The Stability and Growth Pact is a joke, when France and Germany broke it (oh yeah the good, honest and hard working Germans ran a technically illegal budget deficit for years), nothing happened, so quelle surprise the weaker southern economies took it as an encouragement to borrow ever more.

Didn't Germany got the deficit under control years and years ago, though? Or am I misremembering? I know that France broke the rules alongside PIGS.

 

[DeGoblin]

as a result Israel's arms manufacturers stay small and dependent on the American ones while forbidden to trade internationally
Just so you can refresh your memory. I'm sure your friends and relatives would love to get pay raises and Hanukkah bonuses but your claims are utter crap. The only limit that US puts on Israel is that American tech - or systems where American tech is prominent - cannot be resold. That hasn't stopped Israel from selling everything from high-tech ATGMs (Spike) to pistols and everything between. Plus, do you really think that something like the Iron Dome would have happened without American money and technology?

Israeli defense equipment exports have reached 7 billion U.S. dollars in 2012, making it a 20 percent increase from the amount of defense-related exports in 2011. Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[6][7][8] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel's largest arms market in the world.[9][10]

So it's time to eat that hat and admit you made a silly claim.

I thought i made that cleared in the next post

It's all relative mate. I have family working in these places.

Not only bought weapons can't be resold, but also parts bought for larger projects come along with contracts of restrictions for that larger project.
For the Iron dome, something of the sort was needed so a company made an opportunity from it. Maybe it would have some more Russian parts in it but something of the sort would have been made nevertheless. But don't get me wrong again, I'm not saying the aid isn't worth the restrictions that come along. I'm saying there are restrictions that come along. Hence the issue is more complicated a 'money pit' on the American side.

Here's an example for these restrictions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Israel_relations

In 2000, Israel cancelled the sale to China of the Israeli-built Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) in the wake of pressure from the U.S., which threatened to cut off US$2.8 billion in yearly aid if the deal went through.[43] Israel's decision drew condemnation from China, which stated that the cancellation would hurt bilateral ties.[43] China’s record of proliferating arms and weapons systems has also concerned U.S. planners, as the U.S. worries that China may repackage advanced Israeli defense technologies for resale to America’s rivals and nations hostile to it throughout the world.

 

[Radalan]

Nice sources.

It's better than "I have family working in these places".

 

[DeGoblin]

Is it really so far fetched?

 

[kurczak]

Didn't Germany got the deficit under control years and years ago, though? Or am I misremembering? I know that France broke the rules alongside PIGS.

Define years and years There are basically two separate criteria - annual deficit (no more than 3 pct) and total gdp/debt ratio (no more than 60 pct). Germany violated the annual deficit rule as late as 2011 and is still considerably in breach of the second rule, though since they have had effectively balanced budget from 2012 on, they are not considered to be in gross breach or whatever the exact term is (i.e. they are demonstrably undertaking steps to get below 60) so the sanctions don't apply now.

I'm not saying that Germans are as bad at public finance Greeks, they're obviously not. Nobody in Europe is, ehm. Just that people should take it easy on the "lazy, cheating, rule-breaking Greeks" meme and that the German high horse is not that high. And that public finance wise, there are Eurozone countries that are pretty much ticking bombs (France, Italy) and when/if they go off, the Greek debt will be the least of anyone's worries.

 

[Vicccard]

Baibai EU

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Didn't Germany got the deficit under control years and years ago, though? Or am I misremembering? I know that France broke the rules alongside PIGS.

Define years and years There are basically two separate criteria - annual deficit (no more than 3 pct) and total gdp/debt ratio (no more than 60 pct). Germany violated the annual deficit rule as late as 2011 and is still considerably in breach of the second rule, though since they have had effectively balanced budget from 2012 on, they are not considered to be in gross breach or whatever the exact term is (i.e. they are demonstrably undertaking steps to get below 60) so the sanctions don't apply now.

I'm not saying that Germans are as bad at public finance Greeks, they're obviously not. Nobody in Europe is, ehm. Just that people should take it easy on the "lazy, cheating, rule-breaking Greeks" meme and that the German high horse is not that high. And that public finance wise, there are Eurozone countries that are pretty much ticking bombs (France, Italy) and when/if they go off, the Greek debt will be the least of anyone's worries.

Yeah, broke it over and over again. And hell, ten years ago it was looking rather grim.
On the other hand they're planning to actually not incur any debt this year. To not end up with red numbers. But who knows, the year is long.