Great helms and plate?

[Yeyinde]

There's a lot of games with knights in full plate and great helms, including Mount&Blade, but as far as I know, great helms were an early medieval thing, while plate was later.

So, how historically correct is the plate and great helm combination?

 

[Seff]

Plate is too wide a term to define like that.

The great helm as represented in M&B fits the hundred years war with its transitional plate/coat of plates/brigandine with plate limbs and mail underneath.

As far as I know, the Armet was a late design, with the houndskull bascinet continuing on from HYW until the Armet period.

As far as I know, the full sallet/salade is a german thing, but not sure.

The bascinet is more representative of a generic 'worn with plate' type helmet - as far as I know

 

[Yeyinde]

I meant "full plate", if that's any help.

As in M&B's platemail.

 

[Aqtai]

There's a lot of games with knights in full plate and great helms, including Mount&Blade, but as far as I know, great helms were an early medieval thing, while plate was later.

So, how historically correct is the plate and great helm combination?

It is not.

The particular style of great helm shown in M&B is mid to late 13th century. Great helms themselves were pretty much confined to Tournaments after circa 1350 AD. The Black Prince's great helm for example was almost certainly a tournament helm. Full plate armour itself does appear until the end of the 14th century. So having the two together is anachronistic. Early full plate armour of the type used in the late 14th century would have been worn with a bascinet. The "alwite" plate armour worn by wealthier knights at Agincourt would have been worn with a great bascinet. The nearest thing to great helm worn with full plate would be tournament helms like this helm attributed to king Henry V.

For the record the plate armour shown in mount and blade appears to be modelled on Milanese armour from circa 1420 AD, in particular one of the armours from the Churburg armoury.

 

[Yeyinde]

I didn't think it was realistic either, but thanks for the help.

Oh, Aqtai, now that I got your attention, I've got another question:

I remember something about celtic or gallic swords with rounded tips. Are/were they real? What was the point of the rounded tip?

 

[Llew2]

Maybe to allow the blades to be wider (without being longer) for chopping and cutting as appose to thrusting.

Just a guess.

 

[wildhorse]

M&B represents century XIII so based on that the great helmet would be ok, but full plate armour is another thing.. it is absolutely out of time in history terms and never was worn with a great helmet.

 

[Yeyinde]

Horsie, the yearcount in M&B isn't correct, it's improvised, so to speak. It is "just" middle ages as a whole, thus chain, plate, and great helms.

 

[wildhorse]

Horsie, the yearcount in M&B isn't correct, it's improvised, so to speak. It is "just" middle ages as a whole, thus chain, plate, and great helms.

Right,..but it seems to me that the dev team is trying to make this game more historically accurate,..black plate armour is not anymore in the game (for example)

 

[Yeyinde]

Well, black armor was used, both for scaring, and some anti-rust stuff.

It was only removed because it looked to fantasy-ish, I think.

 

[italiano]

There is a difference between being historically accurate and being realistic. Being historically accurate is only considering our own history, while realism would be using our history as an influence and then figuring out how it would be in the setting of Calradia. How does the constant state of warfare and the variety of cultures in such a small area affect things? I am guessing that this doesn't have as much of an effect on the technology of armour as opposed to something like the quality of common troops (which would be much higher than in our own history), but I don't think we should just be looking at our own history.

 

[Yeyinde]

I wasn't talking about the game, I was asking if the plate/great helm combo generally speaking is realistic.

Nothing about the quality of troops or stuff like that, just "Did dudes wear full plate harnesses and great helms".

 

[italiano]

Your question has already been answered and while you weren't talking specifically about the game, other people were doing just that. My comment on troop types was just an example of where a realistic Calradia may not reflect our own history and obviously had nothing to do with your post. I am sorry that you felt you had to jump on me for posting something that wasn't truly related to the original topic of the discussion.

 

[Yeyinde]

I thought it was an insult (I don't have enough words to tell you exactly what I mean).

Handshake?

 

[italiano]

I thought it was an insult

My post or your post? If you mean mine then no, was just posting an opinion about something else that came up (realistic in our world vs realistic in Calradia).

Handshake?

Yes 

 

[Yeyinde]

I thought yours was an "insult", as I can't explain it any better.

Peace. And goodnight, it's late.

 

[NecroBones]

The great helms, as depicted in the game, were common from about 1250 to 1300, as used for war. They continued to evolve beyond this time, and it should be noted that they continued to be used as tournament helms long afterwards as well, being used with jousting armor, etc. They eventually evolved into the "frog mouthed" helms, which continued to be used into the 16th century.

Check out this article for more information.

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

Check out this article for more information.

I was going to mention the Black Prince's great helm as an exemple of great helm existing well into the XIVth century, and therefore coexisting with some sort of plate armour at least (transiiional at least, if not Alwhyte or gothic) , but it is included in that excellent link of yours. Boorkmarked, thanks!

 

[Yeyinde]

Thanks for the link. Didn't bother to read it yet, I just got out of bed.

But I will some day. Some day. (I'm laaaaaazy )