Go to hell with your scalpel, I have my scimitar... or Rambo nerfing from TW

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Aliaksandr

Sergeant at Arms
Strange, but it seems to me that the worst moments (in my opinion) in the development of the MP are connected:
1) Leaving @mexxico with the addition of perks to MP
2) @NIN3 departure with hard Rambo nerfing

And if the departure of these wonderful people from the team is definitely bad, then we can’t say the same about the changes associated with this. After all, the ideas of both these changes were quite reasonable and appropriate. A good idea to diversify the game a bit in terms of the class system gave rise to perks, and the desire to specialize the captain mode, supported by the request of the majority of the gaming community, led to the nerfing of Rambo.
And if everything is in order with the ideas of changes, then I consider the chosen ways of translating them into gameplay in both cases completely unsuccessful.

Instead of perks that somehow magically endow the character (and his squad in captain mode) with some hidden (and this is important) combat advantages, it would probably be possible to increase the variety of weapons and armor that give similar (but visible) privileges. Additionally, this would further expand the potential for player progress (and hence the period of passion for the game) due to the possibility of mastering all aspects of new weapons/equipment, and would also not negatively affect the perception of gameplay in terms of its realism.

Although we have yet to objectively evaluate Rambo nerfing, the preliminary change log already allows us to form an idea of what it will be like.

And it will be BS, IMHO. Yes, because of the leash, the Rambo Captain will need to more quickly (often) command his squad to carry out his Rambo plan. But will that stop the "true Rambo"? However, this will definitely harm such realistic and skill-dependent captain tactics as creating ambushes and baits, reconnaissance and distraction, etc. I'm not even talking about how badly throwing a squad of cav-bots around the battle will affect the visual perception of the game and, accordingly, the player's ability to be immersed in it.
Why not listen to that part of the gaming community here, which suggested increasing the player's respawn time depending on the distance from their squad, or choose another less destructive way to nerf Rambo from 100+ suggested by the community? Idk.

In my opinion, in both cases, the game mechanics lose their realism in favor of casualness, and, therefore, their attractiveness for enough serious players. I agree that the interests of gameplay should take some precedence over the task of recreating realism. But the problem is that in both cases, the interests of the gameplay could be satisfied without compromising (even beneficially) realism.

It seems that with the departure of development veterans, the paradigm of the game, which I once fell in love with, is also changing ???
 
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vfkaseke

Veteran
WB
I think realism should never take precedent in a MP mode. Besides that, if you want "realistic" movement, you want to have your whole squad be real people instead of bots. The rise of the custom battle servers has afforded us that. Join a clan and lead a group if that is what you want.

Personally I find the leash the better solution for the rambo problem, specifically for the cav rambo problem.
 
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Zarthas

Knight
The Captain leash solves at least partially addresses several problems:
--Enemy ranged AI exploitation by kiting with your Captain
--Solocav/Ramboing
--AI abuse by abusing pathfinding (like standing on top of a building)
Taleworlds is in "Ship It" mode. They were not going to address these issues any other way, so we got the Leash.

It is worth any detriment it will bring, honestly.
Light Cavalry will now become more important for reconnaissance, giving them some actual purpose in Captain.
Archers can be a little more competitive.
And Solocav is dead forever. (RIP).
Captain mode will go back to being about what it is meant to: Engagement, Positioning, combined arms, and good use of formation.
 

Cek

Squire
The Captain leash solves at least partially addresses several problems:
--Enemy ranged AI exploitation by kiting with your Captain
--Solocav/Ramboing
--AI abuse by abusing pathfinding (like standing on top of a building)
Taleworlds is in "Ship It" mode. They were not going to address these issues any other way, so we got the Leash.
I agree with you that are problems in this mode and the next update will try to address them at least partially

It is worth any detriment it will bring, honestly.
Light Cavalry will now become more important for reconnaissance, giving them some actual purpose in Captain.
I think they still be not used anyway, as it is better to take heavy cavarly anyway as the speed and number difference it is not so great, and heavy cav at least could do something on the first charge (than become useless).

Archers can be a little more competitive.
Yes and no, for example the developer say that in case your troops are under "charge" command this leash doesn't activate, so you can still leave your troops in the fight and go alone stop an entire squad of archer.
You still can occur in the risk that you own men are kited away doing so, but still a good tradeoff as not many people do that.

Also the biggest problem for archer to be competitive in my opinion is the map design, most of the map we have right now are small and with a lot of obstacle in the way.

And Solocav is dead forever. (RIP).
Until we see the actual distance you can "park" your men before they go back to follow. i would not say that solo cav is dead

Captain mode will go back to being about what it is meant to: Engagement, Positioning, combined arms, and good use of formation.
Hope so, but also hope we not go back at the start of EA situation, when most game were only infantry composition meeting in the center of the map and fighting there.
In my opinion to have that we need more commands over the AI, more big and open map (were you can actually move around)
 

Zarthas

Knight
Yes and no, for example the developer say that in case your troops are under "charge" command this leash doesn't activate, so you can still leave your troops in the fight and go alone stop an entire squad of archer.
You still can occur in the risk that you own men are kited away doing so, but still a good tradeoff as not many people do that.
I believe you're a bit mistaken here.
The leash range is extended if you are Charging or Mounted, but it still exists.
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/7-new-maps-ranked-and-battle-mode-hundreds-of-balance-changes.451391/

I'm talking specifically about the scenario on Forest where longbows would be set up on either hilltop, and a Captain would be running around in the center near C drawing fire from the archers. That will no longer be possible and this is a good thing.
Solocav is already nonviable except in cases of extreme skill difference, any leashing that puts their troops in danger and forces them to focus on mashing F1 will be enough for my pike to catch that horse.
These are all good changes and will make the boring exploitation plays less viable.
 

Brandis.

Subforum Moderator
Rambo is absolutely still the meta. It looks bad because there’s a number of Rambo OTPs who solo queue and their team will always play inf rush, not giving their Rambo enough time to get value. The cav will do the same, not playing with the teams style and commit their cav troops, so we’re forced to watch ego cav (as EU likes to call it) play alone for 5 mins and then fail to win.

I’ve done a few 6v6 pickups and Rambo has won every round I’ve seen it played, including in a match where my team had only three cav players and still won.

Additionally, if I have Rambo OTP on my team, I’ll also play Rambo, and if the team gives us any time to kill units, we’ll usually win.

Rambo being viable in Captain would be like if there was a class called "Summoner" in Skirmish/Battle to summon 12 AI troops to help you fight. That might be effective, that might be ineffective, but it's certainly against the spirit of Skirmish/Battle, which are modes based on your personal mechanics and not abilities.
 

Zarthas

Knight
Rambo is absolutely still the meta. It looks bad because there’s a number of Rambo OTPs who solo queue and their team will always play inf rush, not giving their Rambo enough time to get value. The cav will do the same, not playing with the teams style and commit their cav troops, so we’re forced to watch ego cav (as EU likes to call it) play alone for 5 mins and then fail to win.

I’ve done a few 6v6 pickups and Rambo has won every round I’ve seen it played, including in a match where my team had only three cav players and still won.

Additionally, if I have Rambo OTP on my team, I’ll also play Rambo, and if the team gives us any time to kill units, we’ll usually win.

Rambo being viable in Captain would be like if there was a class called "Summoner" in Skirmish/Battle to summon 12 AI troops to help you fight. That might be effective, that might be ineffective, but it's certainly against the spirit of Skirmish/Battle, which are modes based on your personal mechanics and not abilities.
I'm just saying that compared to the HORRORS of 2020-2021 Glaive solocav, we are doing fine (Horsegang, Forza, etc).
There was a brief Shock Rambo meta that worked well if the opposing team didn't know how to micro their troops, I'll be glad to see that put to rest.
I won't play on EU servers for several reasons, (massive skill differential being one of them, EU has more players but more rookies and more S-tier, NA is more even across the board). I am not surprised it is still being done there, but I'm not seeing it as much on NA East after the mobility & armor nerfs for cav and the pike buffs. I don't even see any clans running solocav any more. (Hvy Inf blunt meta is just easier, maybe).
In any event, very glad to see this final nail in the coffin.

Now imagine if we could hear the horses.
 

Aliaksandr

Sergeant at Arms
In any event, very glad to see this final nail in the coffin.

Until we see the actual distance you can "park" your men before they go back to follow. i would not say that solo cav is dead
I have little doubt about the accuracy of the last assumption
I'm just saying that compared to the HORRORS of 2020-2021 Glaive solocav, we are doing fine (Horsegang, Forza, etc).
here you are right bro, but too restrained (in my opinion): after the nerf of cava and buff of spearmen/archers (somewhere between 1.6.7-1.6.9), Rambo tactics ceased to be an extremely difficult problem and became just an interesting tactical task for fairly experienced players. The number of Rambos after that decreased dramatically and this was quite enough not to reduce tactical diversity.
PS: opposing Rambo-cave tactics is one of the few things that still keep me interested in launching this game.
 
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Namakan

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
read the first two lines and gave up. what did mexxico have to do with MP development lol
 

Aliaksandr

Sergeant at Arms
mexxico was a SP dev. you're probably refering to AVRC. embarrassing.
Thank you buddy for not missing the details...
mexxico was also just a really cool dude who interacted well with the community. I also liked his view on the development of the game as a whole. That was enough for me to consider his departure a big loss for the company, equating its severity with the introduction of perks to MP, which happened around the same time. That's my logic, but I still love my brain so much)
 
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