Glaive weaponry is OP atm change my mind

[Dr-Shinobi]

snip

Not my problem that you take those things personal as im arguing about the subject and can see in some cases that youre trying to argue against without experience as well as constantly talking about armor buffs instead of the Actual Glaive weapons compared to the others.. Would that changed the fact on Looters ? Still havnt answered the cut difference If you want to discuss lets discuss the subject not the other thing you really want

 

[Darkath]

if you buff armor by taking Glaive as a reference point, 1H Sword will become no more dangerous than swiss army knives, 2H swords will be underpowered, and Glaive will be correct.
If you take 1h Sword as reference point, Glaive will still be OP.

those 2 separate issues, 1. balance required across weapons types and 2. the armor effectiveness, need to be balanced together, otherwise devs will end up playing whack a mole trying to balance these issues one at a time and it will never be satisfying.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Think its to much work when it already works in my opinion but it differs it seems...Just nerf the Glaive and similar swing weapons slightly below 2handed sword and voila its balanced. AI horse archers can still do alot of damage with speed bonus same as Vladians as they could get a skill buff maybe to compensate a little. I mean i want more content then just to jerk around with tweaks all the time...Look what they did with Ulfhednars as an good example

 

[Marajah]

So youre saying if you put in a weapon in lets say Warcraft that one shots everyone/everything and you need 0 skill, effort and money to buy it...Think thats a fair thing to do in a game ? And you also dont need the speed bonus from the mount ? Is this an arguably balanced thing to do ? Idk where you people are coming from to be honest ^^

Basic skills and no effort to rule them all is the name of the game these days folks

---However i do know that some other people are trying to test my patience, which isnt working so you know --

But that's the thing. This is NOT warcraft. It tries to hold some degree of connection to historical warfare and in historical warfare pole-weapons were very popular exactly because they were relatively cheap to make, to use and had devastating effect on the battlefield. In a game like this I think it's perfectly fine to have a weapon that 1 hits KO a lot of things. As long as it goes both ways, it's fine

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

But that's the thing. This is NOT warcraft. It tries to hold some degree of connection to historical warfare and in historical warfare pole-weapons were very popular exactly because they were relatively cheap to make, to use and had devastating effect on the battlefield. In a game like this I think it's perfectly fine to have a weapon that 1 hits KO a lot of things. As long as it goes both ways, it's fine

No but i was making an example...Warcraft, Battlefield or we could take this to the game Kingdom come if you like...I wouldnt have liked if there was an starter weapon there that i could one hit everyone with from the start without requiring of skills or money...its just stupid and unbalanced if you catch my drift I mean sure if people really wants this its fine, but i never going to respect a man/woman "bragging" about doing good with it which is a shame because i like to watch good players out there in action. I rather have people cheat if they want it to be in the main game....
Also its equivilant of saying....Khuazaits are balanced right now on the map

 

[Marajah]

No but i was making an example...Warcraft, Battlefield or we could take this to the game Kingdom come if you like...I wouldnt have liked if there was an starter weapon there that i could one hit everyone with from the start without requiring of skills or money...its just stupid and unbalanced if you catch my drift

Fun fact: you can't equip a halberd in kingdom come: deliverance from your inventory, but you can pick them up from the ground and they can 1-shot people in full plate armor



Jokes and examples apart, I think it's fine for the following: since it's somehow based in historical warfare, I don't think the balance lies in useless early weapons like in most RPGs. It lies on getting better survivability with better armor as you progress through the game. Some weapons should still be devastating and easy to acquire. There's still the natural progression of combat-based skills to hinder OPness

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Fun fact: you can't equip a halberd in kingdom come: deliverance from your inventory, but you can pick them up from the ground and they can 1-shot people in full plate armor



Jokes and examples apart, I think it's fine for the following: since it's somehow based in historical warfare, I don't think the balance lies in useless early weapons like in most RPGs. It lies on getting better survivability with better armor as you progress through the game. Some weapons should still be devastating and easy to acquire. There's still the natural progression of combat-based skills to hinder OPness

Lol yeah idk why they didnt implemented spears in that game as an equipped weapon so to speak. I mean skill tree was there to at one time if i remember it correctly

Indeed can agree on that along with aim and tactical moving but still...When you kill these guys this easy you gonna get alot of money which other weapons can but have to make 4 times the effort each with the second most powerfull weapon class in the game so to speak

 

[Medivhtratos]

Maybe, like in warband, a penalty must be applied to those weapons, when they go above an specific weapon range.
Since "warband is better as bannerlord", everyone should agree XD.

https://mountandblade.fandom.com/wiki/Polearms

 

[Darkath]

I think if we want to get anywhere we should really differentiate different type of damage a weapon can deal and how effective they are against different targets.

Cutting damage is very effective against anything that is lightly armored such as peasants/levies, skirmishers, archers and horses (so that include all pretty much everything kuzhait :p). An unprotected body part being slashed by a large blade in most cases would be quite unpleasant and in most cases result in severe wounds, incapacitation or death, no matter which part cut through. That's mainly why people started to wear armor in ancient warfare.

Piercing damage is more effective against armor, since very few armor (especially in 11th century) could resist a huge force applied to a very small tip. Even for infantry, putting all your weight on your weapon to pierce through someone ought to be some damage especially as the tip of the weapon could go between links, scales or bands of armors. Plate armor would later provide a better solution to deflect those attacks.
The problem being that unless you hit a vital area, or completely pierce through one's body, you probably wouldn't inflict a killing blow with a single attack but could at least stop an enemy in its tracks (no matter if they are a human or a horse)

Crushing damage will break your bones and rupture internal tissue, so of course wearing an armor will dissipate some of the shock, but no matter how good your armor is, you might always get a few bones broken if a sufficiently heavy object hits you. Weapons that are top heavy such as Axes and Maces tend to deal more crushing damage than more balanced weapons such as swords. You can of course always use a western broadsword as club when all else fails, and get some results, but that wouldn't be very efficient. Unless vitals part are hits like the chest or the head, a target is unlikely to die on the spot from a crushing blow, but designated crushing weapon can make short work of shields and heavier targets as their damage should only somewhat be reduced by armor.

Back to glaive, a pointy glaive (not the curved chinese Guan-dao style) will deal all 3 kinds of damage depending on the situation. If you swing it around you ought to deal some crushing damage with the blade although that's not the best way to use it. You will completely cut through unarmored targets and horses, and if you thrust it, you can also get similar results as a sword, except with a longer reach (at the expense of accuracy).
That's why glaives (and the closely related 2 handed swords) main application is as an anti cavalry weapon, they could be used to cut horse's legs as well as dismount the rider, and were less prone to break than spears/pikes. Of course you can still use them against foot soldiers but would be more impractical than a sword at close range, and more impractical than a spear at longer range. It would probably be quite ineffective against armored troops if you swing it around as only the crushing shockwave would be felt, and instead you would need to try to pierce through the armor with them.

In terms of gameplay my conclusion is that :

• Swinging a glaive should be much less effective against armor, but still deadly to horses and unarmored troops.
• Against armored targets, you would need to use thrusting attacks to deal some kind of damage
• The heavier guan dao glaive wielded by Kuzhait cannot be thrusted, but is heavier and should deal more crushing damage when you swing it around, but should not often one shot an armored target.

The same reasoning can be applied to balance other kinds of weapons. Swinging a sword at a fully armored Sturgian axeman should be the less effective way of killing them, you should rather try to stick them with the pointy end, which is admittedly more difficult, and should be more rewarding as well.

(edit : what i call guan dao is the weapon simply named "glaive" in Bannerlord, "hafted blade" in Warband, but my post is about all kind of glaive in bannerlord including those that can be thrusted like menavlion, which is closer to what was called glaive in europe)

 

[Orion]

Still havnt answered the cut difference

I did, by suggesting nonlinear damage reduction from armor as part of the damage calculation. It's entirely possible to target damage extremes & reduce them to greater degrees via armor, without having a significant knock-on effect on less powerful weapons. This shifts more significance to armor, and leaves high damage potential when fighting lightly- or non-armored opponents. The US income tax brackets work like this.

If we wanted to make an argument from realism, 1h swords should absolutely be junk when swung against heavy armor and glaives/axes should only fare better by virtue of weight & leverage. This sucks for gameplay reasons (it directly discourages people from playing how they like and imposes new faction balancing problems), so maintaining their viability should be part of the solution.

I think caps should be used as a last resort measure when everything else fails to solve the problem.

The original M&B and Warband had a cap of 300% to mitigate outliers and quirks of the speed bonus calculation. We had a thread long ago, before the cap was introduced, where we posted screenshots of our comically inflated damage. We may be seeing a similar pattern here, but to a lesser degree (nobody has posted 20k damage yet in BL to my knowledge).

We also need to consider the maximum attainable health of characters and mounts, which should be used as a reference point for balancing damage values and caps. If it becomes too difficult to one-shot reliably with a developed character & skilled player, then tweaks are needed. To reiterate, I think the glaives & similar weapons are currently too powerful, but nerfing particular items still leaves us with unaddressed systematic problems.

 

[Bob Gnarly]

In my opinion, the glaive is very dangerous on horse in field battles, but less effective on foot due to the distancing requirements, and inferior to higher tier weapons (think tier 6 2-handed swords / axes) in siege weapons. In turn those weapons are less effective on horse back.

Also in my opinion, cut damage is just too powerful across the board against armor. That would resolve the problem, at least for mid to higher tier units. The weapon would be even less effective at sieges (against enemy higher tier weapons) and a bit less effective in open field battles. It would make the weapon more situational than it is right now.

I agree with this.

The glaives biggest pro and con is its reach which makes it good in open field, but bad in sieges. It's why I favor 2H axes.

I also agree that cutting damage is too good against heavy armor right now, I have to use a mod to bring it back in line. This helps boost the glaives effectiveness.

In my opinion, armor and weapon damage type values need to be reviewed. Then we can look at if the glaive is still outperforming.

 

[Darkath]

If we wanted to make an argument from realism, 1h swords should absolutely be junk when swung against heavy armor and glaives/axes should only fare better by virtue of weight & leverage. This sucks for gameplay reasons (it directly discourages people from playing how they like and imposes new faction balancing problems), so maintaining their viability should be part of the solution.

It sucks for gameplay reason if you oversimplify it and if you only look at types of weapons without looking at types of damage and types of armor.

1H Swords were versatile and good weapons prized by higher classes for good reason. When cutting and slashing your enemy is not an option, you can also easily thrust your sword at close range to penetrate his armor, more easily than a spear is difficult to use at very close range..
In Bannerlord thrusting attacks are generally garbage when you don't have speed/momentum but it shouldn't necessarily be the case.

 

[Hans 77]

This has been a problem the MP community has been trying to bring to Taleworlds' attention for some time.

Their concerns lie more with menav cav, but that's only due to semantics -since glaives and menavlions are essentially the same weapon with near-identical damage outputs and range. It's just that menavlions are more readily available in multiplayer than glaives, but if the opposite were true, you'd see a similar outcry against glaives.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/menavlion-in-multiplayer.402863/

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/courser.406726/#post-9574106

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/empire-courser-is-completely-broken-in-tdm.431873/

The problems with both glaives and menavlions follow the same principle -they're far too powerful and they benefit from a very generous range advantage over most weapons.

I also saw some people argue that glaive cav in Bannerlord is no different than glaive cav in Warband, so there's no problem. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

Glaive cav in Warband was strong -for sure, but they weren't ever one-shotting top-tier units or even lords! Plus, the Glaive weapon in Warband was rather short with all things considered. All lances, most spears, and even a good number of two-handers could out-range glaives. Glaive cav had to get dangerously close to hit their target, and the horses in Warband weren't the hitbox magnets and damage sponges they are in Bannerlord.

Glaive weapons are OP in Bannerlord.

 

[CrazyElf]

Still havnt answered the cut difference If you want to discuss lets discuss the subject not the other thing you really want

I have already made it clear what my views are. The glaive has an advantage in cut damage because it is dangerous on horseback, but less powerful on foot (although still potent), and not as effective as a shorter 2 handed weapon would be on swords. The solution is to buff armor against cut damage. It is a weapon with trade-offs.

Swords do better at sieges, but they aren't as powerful on a horse, but they are still perfectly viable in field battles.

----

Not my problem that you take those things personal as im arguing about the subject and can see in some cases that youre trying to argue against without experience

As far as your conduct, you focused again on my person not my argument. Notice how in this, you are focusing on my "experience", not the merits of my previous arguments.

I am not new to this game and have played since April.

That's not taking things personally - what you said is factually inaccurate. Me disagreeing with you is not me lacking experience. We both clearly have hundreds of hours in the game.

But axes dont do blunt or do they ?. I understood what he ment but its not the thing i asked him about since were discussing two handers compared to eachother which all do cut damage

Axes do cut damage, not blunt damage.

Maces do blunt damage,as do tournament weapons. Not much else does blunt right now. There are supposed to be blunt arrows, but they are not in the game right now.

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[CrazyElf]

if you buff armor by taking Glaive as a reference point, 1H Sword will become no more dangerous than swiss army knives, 2H swords will be underpowered, and Glaive will be correct.
If you take 1h Sword as reference point, Glaive will still be OP.

those 2 separate issues, 1. balance required across weapons types and 2. the armor effectiveness, need to be balanced together, otherwise devs will end up playing whack a mole trying to balance these issues one at a time and it will never be satisfying.

I'm ok with glaives doing quite a bit more damage than swords.

Glaives are lethal on a horseback. They are less effective on foot and even less effective at sieges, where 2 handed swords (or axes) are a better choice. Tight quarters means less room to swing.

They are a specialist weapon - swords are really good still on open field, but they won't have the swinging issues that glaives have in close quarters, making them good for both.

Actually there is one other point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour#Effect_on_weapon_development

Plate armour was virtually invulnerable to sword slashes. It also protected the wearer well against spear or pike thrusts and provided decent defense against blunt trauma.

The evolution of plate armour also triggered developments in the design of offensive weapons. While this armour was effective against cuts or blows, their weak points could be exploited by long tapered swords or other weapons designed for the purpose, such as pollaxes and halberds.

Now we do not have plate armor (not yet anyways - although there is a model in the game that is not in use called the "Hallow Plate" armor). Plate armor would be more protective than say, the top armors in the game (like Imperial Scale Armor), but scale armor should be very resistant to slashes too.

But polearms are not invulnerable either - I'll repeat a point I made earlier.



Notice around 10:10 the player is swarmed - in order to swing a glaive, one needs a lot of room to do damage. In sieges that is difficult. That leaves the player vulnerable to getting swarmed, which is what happened. A 2 handed sword like the Falx or Thamaskene 2 handed sword would be a better choice during a siege.

Although glaive kills are possible in sieges (the player did get a kill around 10:02 by swinging at the right distance), it is much harder than on horse in a field battle. In turn, 2 handed swords don't work nearly as well on horses (they don't have the extra reach and it is harder to hit multiple targets on horse with a 2 handed sword), although axes can still hit multiple targets.

By contrast, you can use a 2 handed sword just fine on field fights. They just don't work nearly as well on horseback compared to a glaive.

But that's the thing. This is NOT warcraft. It tries to hold some degree of connection to historical warfare and in historical warfare pole-weapons were very popular exactly because they were relatively cheap to make, to use and had devastating effect on the battlefield. In a game like this I think it's perfectly fine to have a weapon that 1 hits KO a lot of things. As long as it goes both ways, it's fine

I agree that we should try to keep as close to history as possible, while making a fun game.

Some things are not always possible - an example is that caravans have to hard to catch. Another may be that we have some weapons and equipment that are late\r in the Medieval period this game is set in.

That's one of the reasons why I favor strong armor and strong polearms. Polearms are not the end all be all - they have no shields, they are less effective at sieges, and the "advantage" is much lower on foot than on horseback.

If we wanted to make an argument from realism, 1h swords should absolutely be junk when swung against heavy armor and glaives/axes should only fare better by virtue of weight & leverage. This sucks for gameplay reasons (it directly discourages people from playing how they like and imposes new faction balancing problems), so maintaining their viability should be part of the solution.

Balance is always a delicate trade-off here. The game does make some appeal to realism and historical warfare here. I lean towards the sacrifice a bit of gameplay in most cases in favor of realism, although it is clear that not everyone agrees here.

I agree with this.

The glaives biggest pro and con is its reach which makes it good in open field, but bad in sieges. It's why I favor 2H axes.

I also agree that cutting damage is too good against heavy armor right now, I have to use a mod to bring it back in line. This helps boost the glaives effectiveness.

In my opinion, armor and weapon damage type values need to be reviewed. Then we can look at if the glaive is still outperforming.

To me, it's always do 1 change at a time. First change armor, then 1 by 1 review weapons. It will be slow, but it's less likely to cause problems.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

.

Strange since you havent got any solid argument yet even if i showed you couple of videos showing that even an long one handed spear is effective in close quarter combat inside castle as you said should be so much ineffective as an excuse for the insane trade off for the Glaive to be so powerful as it is as you continued talking armor buffs and such...(I mean ive seen a lot of decent youtubers managed with the glaive just fine in sieges as some cheese with it on the ladders and such),,,So yeah excuse me for saying that i have the experience to see that some things your talking about dont add up. ...Which doesnt mean i think im better or anything but you should start to listen instead of being so stubborn...if not well dont if you dont want to learn anything

And still as both you and Orion havent still pointed out what buffing armor (that now have became so important suddenly for some reason) would have to do with this change between the both cut damage weapons against eachother which i think you both have tried to work around with other explanations that has not really explained this yet. Maybe i need to make myself clearer in the question

You see this Axe which is the second powerful weapon in the game it does lets say 45 in Cut damage or less against armor now.....You see this Glaive (and its similarities) it does around lets say low 170 damage for the median hit in cut
Now you want to higher the armor value of lets say with 50 on cut weapons to lower the Glaives potential which is pretty high right ? And it should be negating pretty much on Cut since Cut shouldnt go thru some armors right ?
So for science sake and for cognitive functions...How much does those weapons do now ? And where in damage value do we land with non armored units to then ? And think to yourselves have we solved the issue now....

I want an clear answer please---- not some personal feelings, not some history for the sake of reality, not some technical Armor coding against the different damage types of explanation...Only the difference between them both data wise and your thoughts about the balance between them both

I mean if you want me to understand your arguments you must explain to me these basic things so i understand its the right way and why armor has so important value in this conversation
But then i can come in with other problems that buffing armor would bring but its not about the subject is it

(Ok so Orion you suggest that 200 in damage should have higher tax payments of lets say as an example of 75% to balance things up then the lower ones that get 5% so the balancing goes down to the same as i suggested ? ....i mean why complicate things when you can only nerf those insane damage output instead ? or is this just about implementing armor arguments ?)

I did, by suggesting nonlinear damage reduction from armor as part of the damage calculation. It's entirely possible to target damage extremes & reduce them to greater degrees via armor, without having a significant knock-on effect on less powerful weapons. This shifts more significance to armor, and leaves high damage potential when fighting lightly- or non-armored opponents. The US income tax brackets work like this.

 

[Medivhtratos]

Maybe, like in warband, a penalty must be applied to those weapons, when they go above an specific weapon range.
Since "warband is better as bannerlord", everyone should agree XD.

https://mountandblade.fandom.com/wiki/Polearms

So this is not an option? BTW what were your results after changeging the dmg_factor @Dr-Shinobi

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

So this is not an option? BTW what were your results after changeging the dmg_factor @Dr-Shinobi

hmmm but yeah Warband was better in the damage department from what i remember it..:However im not remember the details that good to be knowing if it was the best solution aplied to this right now to say its the best so to speak This since im not sure if you know what i mean Still i rather have that weapon (and its similars) going slight 3rd since it has its reach and are lesser dangerous to use so to speak and formidable with cav to. In the balance of things having it stronger with basic damage then two handed swords and axes makes no sense as it can be seen as an type of swing spear. I mean i know why one handed spears are low on damage dealing as they are for a reason...Doesnt make them weak at all. This of which i weight my opinion on Glaive about to

 

[Orion]

(Ok so Orion you suggest that 200 in damage should have higher tax payments of lets say as an example of 75% to balance things up then the lower ones that get 5% so the balancing goes down to the same as i suggested ? ....i mean why complicate things when you can only nerf those insane damage output instead ? or is this just about implementing armor arguments ?)

Because reducing base damage on the weapon will also significantly impact the lower range of your damage output, which would lead to weird behavior like increased rate of glances/bounces. Dealing 200c damage with a glaive to an unarmored man when you're both on foot is fine, doing it to a lord while you're both on foot is not. Actual implementation of a piecewise function like this might seem complicated, but the explanation for how it works is simple: as cutting weapons deal more damage, armor's effect at reducing that damage increases as well. They don't cancel out evenly, and armor reduces the maximum potential damage without forcing lots of glancing blows on less-than-perfect hits.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Because reducing base damage on the weapon will also significantly impact the lower range of your damage output, which would lead to weird behavior like increased rate of glances/bounces. Dealing 200c damage with a glaive to an unarmored man when you're both on foot is fine, doing it to a lord while you're both on foot is not. Actual implementation of a piecewise function like this might seem complicated, but the explanation for how it works is simple: as cutting weapons deal more damage, armor's effect at reducing that damage increases as well. They don't cancel out evenly, and armor reduces the maximum potential damage without forcing lots of glancing blows on less-than-perfect hits.

Now youre speaking of armor again only towards the Glaive...:What will the value be for them both if you raise the cut damage resistance with ex 50 on certain armors ? If one weapon does 45 and the other 180 as you keep the same values on their damage ?

I mean i already known this formula you two have been speaking of from the start....Its nothing new from some games....
But you two havnt answered my questions yet