Glaive weaponry is OP atm change my mind

[Dr-Shinobi]

No, I don't think it's OP, especially when used in mounted combat. There is a reason why people who primarily used Glaive/Halberd weapons are famous in history... particularly the Chinese (like Guan Yu, Lu Bu) and even Mongols used Glaives (most likely looted from the Chinese of course). It is a very good weapon on horseback and should be as powerful as it is.

I feel that other weapons on foot should be equally as powerful though, the Great Axe, maces and 2 handed swords... You certainly shouldn't be able to survive being smashed on the head with a 2 handed mace, axe or even a 2h sword... not unless your wearing a thick steel helmet and have a rock as a head.

So youre saying if you put in a weapon in lets say Warcraft that one shots everyone/everything and you need 0 skill, effort and money to buy it...Think thats a fair thing to do in a game ? And you also dont need the speed bonus from the mount ? Is this an arguably balanced thing to do ? Idk where you people are coming from to be honest ^^

Basic skills and no effort to rule them all is the name of the game these days folks

---However i do know that some other people are trying to test my patience, which isnt working so you know --

 

[Chonokhan]

So youre saying if you put in a weapon in lets say Warcraft that one shots everyone/everything and you need 0 skill, effort and money to buy it...Think thats a fair thing to do in a game ? And you also dont need the speed bonus from the mount ? Is this an arguably balanced thing to do ? Idk where you people are coming from to be honest ^^

Basic skills and no effort to rule them all is the name of the game these days folks

---However i do know that some other people are trying to test my patience, which isnt working so you know --

Imagine talking about balance in a primarily single player game, where you can get 1-shot by a crossbow bolt to the head or impaled by a pike. Do you really have to complain about something you dislike and demand nerfs? How about we just nerf everything then? and instead of fighting in battles, we can just have staring contest.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Imagine talking about balance in a primarily single player game, where you can get 1-shot by a crossbow bolt to the head or impaled by a pike. Do you really have to complain about something you dislike and demand nerfs? How about we just nerf everything then? and instead of fighting in battles, we can just have staring contest.

Sounds like an very resonable conclusion indeed..:But if you knew me, i would have demanded a nerf on my favorite weapon if i knew it was´nt fair or made any sense in the whole weapon tree...I mean thats what we have cheats for right ?
To be fair i demanded an investigation and nerf on Battania not long ago. Heck even went against Sturgs once. And those are my favorite factions which i like to play with the most.

Because when you hide an mentality like that just because out of your own selfish interests, that is not good for the game in its whole.
I have no problem with the Glaive itself, i actually enjoy those kinds of weapons as i do enjoy playing as Khuzaits. Problem is that both are so OP rn that its not even challenging nor fun which makes me not wanting to play with them

 

[Oakenlix]

I don't see how in the world a buff to armor is gonna change the fact that glaive is a much better weapon than any other swing polearm. It's much faster than long menavlion while doing similar damage, so the damage should be nerfed to make it a lighter, more nimble version of menavlion.

Whether or not armor should be buffed (I agree that it should) has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I don't see how in the world a buff to armor is gonna change the fact that glaive is a much better weapon than any other swing polearm. It's much faster than long menavlion while doing similar damage, so the damage should be nerfed to make it a lighter, more nimble version of menavlion.

Whether or not armor should be buffed (I agree that it should) has nothing to do with the topic.

Oh but i also want those to be nerfed to..Long steel Manivilion in swing mode and the other long swing pole arms are the same OPness...
Its good we mention them to so there isnt any discrimination

 

[Oakenlix]

Oh but i also want those to be nerfed to..Long steel Manivilion in swing mode and the other long swing pole arms are the same OPness...
Its good we mention them to so there isnt any discrimination

Well, I do think all these polearms do too much damage while also being too slow, so I wouldn't mind if they changed the balance of this whole weapon branch to maybe make it more similar to warband.

Menavlion doesn't strike me as an OP weapon even though it's a total nuke with every hit, but it's so slow that it kinda balances itself out IMO. It's just that long glaive is way too good in comparison.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Well, I do think all these polearms do too much damage while also being too slow, so I wouldn't mind if they changed the balance of this whole weapon branch to maybe make it more similar to warband.

Menavlion doesn't strike me as an OP weapon even though it's a total nuke with every hit, but it's so slow that it kinda balances itself out IMO. It's just that long glaive is way too good in comparison.

It has a smaller blade but not substantial but it does the same damage in swing on good hit. The speed will go up due to skill to so there is that factor to...However i think swinging with an 2handed Axe and Sword are slight quicker but shorter to which means more risk

But yeah you might be right though in another way. Since on bad hit to the pole shaft manivelion did 40 here while usually the glaives does around 60-80...Havent checked that one out yet

 

[Orion]

I don't see how in the world a buff to armor is gonna change the fact that glaive is a much better weapon than any other swing polearm.

They're all problematic, and the current implementation of armor is partly to blame. Shuffling numbers and tweaking systems independently of one another is how TaleWorlds ended up with balance problems just like this one. Balance must be viewed holistically or it's simply trading out one problem for another.

@Dr-Shinobi reporting people for looking at this issue in its proper scope isn't advisable. How armor works directly impacts actual damage output of weapons. Choosing to ignore this reality so you can report people for "derailing" is an abuse of the report system.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

They're all problematic, and the current implementation of armor is partly to blame. Shuffling numbers and tweaking systems independently of one another is how TaleWorlds ended up with balance problems just like this one. Balance must be viewed holistically or it's simply trading out one problem for another.

@Dr-Shinobi reporting people for looking at this issue in its proper scope isn't advisable. How armor works directly impacts actual damage output of weapons. Choosing to ignore this reality so you can report people for "derailing" is an abuse of the report system.

So Armor tweaks buffs one weapon that has been Op from the start ? And yes im very aware that tweaks changes the damage output which ive noticed. Doesnt mean you want to continue going on about armor mods to stay away from the subject about the Glaive. Thats just some people wanting to trigger since they have in other posts talked about "dont mention the armor to shinobi" because of past heated discussions So yeah if someone continues using that in to an Glaive post you can do the numbers

Ex if you higher the armor value Glaive and the other cut weapons will have the same amount of damage difference. Even with the higher cut reduction Glaive will sure do lesser damage but so will the other weapons and you have to tweak them to which is just alot of work for just one thing that was the issue from the start. This which ive been explaining many times to but nope -> Realistic armor mod for the reality feels and paper armor that does no reduction ^^ I mean i heard this 1000 times already and ive tried to explain to them but its the hand and repeat

 

[Oakenlix]

They're all problematic, and the current implementation of armor is partly to blame. Shuffling numbers and tweaking systems independently of one another is how TaleWorlds ended up with balance problems just like this one. Balance must be viewed holistically or it's simply trading out one problem for another.

I see it differently, I suppose. If one weapon is clearly superior to others in its class, then it's an issue with this particular weapon's stats being imbalanced.
And if cut weapons in general are too effective against armor, then it's an issue with cut damage implementation.

Those matters are completely separate, and we shouldn't expect that fixing one will somehow also fix the other.

 

[Orion]

So Armor tweaks buffs one weapon that has been Op from the start ? And yes im very aware that tweaks changes the damage output which ive noticed.

Selectively one weapon? No. A whole category of weapons? Such as weapons which are really long, have consistently high cutting damage output in practice, and are useable on horseback? Absolutely. Is that not what this topic is about?

Glaive does 200+ something in that situation and one shots lords like nothing in the beginning
...
Keep in mind we also have other weapons as Eastern Polesword, Warrazor, Fine Steel Menavalion, Volgue and such that does same amount of insane damage

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like that is exactly what this topic is about. There are ways the damage calculation itself (of which armor is a core part) can be changed to mitigate this problem while also improving consistency and therefore predictability of damage output across all weapons. When we have clear problems which are directly attributable to the damage calculation itself (e.g. blunt ignoring armor entirely) and other problems which are feasibly exacerbated by the same cause, then it's something worth looking into. In this case, there's a high degree of variation in actual damage output in the videos Shinobi presented as evidence. Sometimes he barely deals enough damage to one-shot kill, and other times he deals so much damage that he could've killed his target twice over. This wild variance in damage cannot be attributed entirely to the damage value of the weapon itself, as there is some degree of randomization there but not enough to explain this range of values. The problem might be blown out of proportion because of something like a quirk in calculating speed bonuses for long, swinging weapons.

Oakenlix is right that if one particular weapon stands out from its peers then it does need special attention to bring it in line with similar weapons. I don't think that's a suitable fix in this situation, though, because there are multiple weapons that are similar which generate these results.

Thats just some people wanting to trigger since they have in other posts talking about "dont mention the armor to shinobi" kind of because of past discussions So yeah if someone continues using that in to an Glaive post you can do the numbers

If it's pertinent to the discussion then they have sufficient reason to bring it up. Just because you made the topic doesn't mean you get to create your own rules for the discussion. Let it go.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Selectively one weapon? No. A whole category of weapons? Such as weapons which are really long, have consistently high cutting damage output in practice, and are useable on horseback? Absolutely. Is that not what this topic is about?

Ah so you think its fair that an long weapon that cost 196 denars basically one shots everyone from the start with 0 skill on foot ? And since you have reach you have the advantage ? When a two hander axe which cost 1k as an example does 1/3-1/4 the damage and is riskier to use ?

Still dont know why armor change will do any difference between them both since them both is cut damage

Those differences is because both of miss hits to the shaft or if the target moves away or i move away when i do hit which is a lot of reduction
So basically an Glaive from the start does 170-210 damage an Axe does 50-90 depending on armor. I mean whats the logic in that ?'

But i find it funny since when i go on about an subject in another thread that someone wants to bring up i get warned for derailing, but when people here does it with their intention which is clear from the reactions to i get hanged out for it..Seems theres an thing about me "that goes on in the locker room" i guess ^^

 

[Orion]

Ah so you think its fair that an long weapon that cost 196 denars basically one shots everyone from the start with 0 skill on foot ? And since you have reach you have the advantage ? When a two hander axe which cost 1k as an example does 1/3-1/4 the damage and is riskier to use ?

Don't put words in my mouth. I never denied there was a problem, I've only said that the nature of the problem may be more complex and a better solution could be found than just dropping a few numbers on particular weapons.

So basically an Glaive from the start does 170-210 damage an Axe does 50-90 depending on armor. I mean whats the logic in that ?

 

[Darkath]

No, I don't think it's OP, especially when used in mounted combat. There is a reason why people who primarily used Glaive/Halberd weapons are famous in history... particularly the Chinese (like Guan Yu, Lu Bu) and even Mongols used Glaives (most likely looted from the Chinese of course). It is a very good weapon on horseback and should be as powerful as it is.

I feel that other weapons on foot should be equally as powerful though, the Great Axe, maces and 2 handed swords... You certainly shouldn't be able to survive being smashed on the head with a 2 handed mace, axe or even a 2h sword... not unless your wearing a thick steel helmet and have a rock as a head.

I shouldn't feel like i'm playing Dynasty Warriors when i'm playing mount and blade though

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never denied there was a problem

Asked you a question as well as what does armor have to do with it if they are both cut damage ? Since you think it was an valid point,. I mean you are going to get more problem with the other weapon types going up while the cut ones stay the same (towards eachother) so no solution to it but more tweaks + alot of other stuff in game that becomes unbalanced as ive mentioned many times before. But this one is about Glaive (and other similars) not about armor so

I shouldn't feel like i'm playing Dynasty Warriors when i'm playing mount and blade though

ah lovely game ^^ But if that was Bannerlord damage output you would have killed the whole army of 300 by yourself on fot and 0 skills xD well if the archers wouldnt have get you first though

 

[Orion]

Armor is involved because it's an intrinsic part of the damage calculation. If armor calculation is given more depth (e.g. nonlinear damage mitigation vs. different damage types) then one could significantly reduce extremes (glaives), and slightly reduce highs (e.g. voulges) while maintaining suitable lows (1h swords) and mids (2h swords). It's as much a part of the discussion as speed bonus. All damage types are modified by speed bonus, so if we change it then everything changes proportionally, right? Wrong. Some weapons straight-up get consistently higher average speed bonuses because they are easier to use, inherently swing faster, or are commonly used on horseback. A possible solution is a cap on speed bonus, which will reduce those extreme high averages while leaving the lower averages mostly untouched.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Armor is involved because it's an intrinsic part of the damage calculation. If armor calculation is given more depth (e.g. nonlinear damage mitigation vs. different damage types) then one could significantly reduce extremes (glaives), and slightly reduce highs (e.g. voulges) while maintaining suitable lows (1h swords) and mids (2h swords). It's as much a part of the discussion as speed bonus. All damage types are modified by speed bonus, so if we change it then everything changes proportionally, right? Wrong. Some weapons straight-up get consistently higher average speed bonuses because they are easiee to use, inherently swing faster, or are commonly used on horseback. A possible solution is a cap on speed bonus, which will reduce those extreme high averages while leaving the lower averages mostly untouched.

Or you could just do as simple as this to lower the Glave output to below the two handed sword which should come second in damage output, then put axe on top

Highest damage in order
1. Two handed axe Since its slower then sword and short to and harder to clean hit with compared to sword (Keep it as same damage as now)
2. Two handed sword (slightly lower damage then axe)
3. Glaive and the others since its longer reach which means lesser risk (Slightly lower then sword)

I mean it dont have to be more complicated then this since they are all cut damage

(Hens i understand the reason that the one handed spear is lower in damage compare to the others because when you have reach youre better safe and more options to either support or fight different targets as infantry and cav + shield which balance things up-.---Glaive is a spear to of its kind so why should that one be favored way above the others who cant use shield to )

 

[Oakenlix]

possible solution is a cap on speed bonus, which will reduce those extreme high averages while leaving the lower averages mostly untouched.

I think caps should be used as a last resort measure when everything else fails to solve the problem.
I think I agree with Shinobi that there shouldn't be such a dramatic difference between 2h and polearm damage, and I agree with you that armor in general should probably work better. And I also agree with myself that long glaive in particular is OP when compared to other similar weapons.

So that's what seems like a good solution here to me:
Nerf long glaive damage, nerf swing polearms cut damage across the board and make armor work better.

 

[Medivhtratos]

found something in a crafting_template.xml. But I don´t know if the game uses this, because I have never seen such a weapon in the game .

隐藏

<WeaponUsageDatas>
<WeaponUsageData id="OneHandedSword"/>
</WeaponUsageDatas>
<StatsData>
<StatData stat_type="Weight" max_value="7.0"/>
<StatData stat_type="WeaponReach" max_value="300"/>
<StatData stat_type="ThrustSpeed" max_value="200"/>
<StatData stat_type="SwingSpeed" max_value="200"/>
<StatData stat_type="ThrustDamage" max_value="500"/>
<StatData stat_type="SwingDamage" max_value="500"/>
<StatData stat_type="Handling" max_value="200"/>
<!--<StatData stat_type="FollowUp" max_value="200"/>-->
</StatsData>
<UsablePieces>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_blade_1"/>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_noble_blade_1"/>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_noble_blade_2"/>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_noble_blade_3"/>
and so on......

 

[Oakenlix]

found something in a crafting_template.xml. But I don´t know if the game uses this, because I have never seen such a weapon in the game .

隐藏

<WeaponUsageDatas>
<WeaponUsageData id="OneHandedSword"/>
</WeaponUsageDatas>
<StatsData>
<StatData stat_type="Weight" max_value="7.0"/>
<StatData stat_type="WeaponReach" max_value="300"/>
<StatData stat_type="ThrustSpeed" max_value="200"/>
<StatData stat_type="SwingSpeed" max_value="200"/>
<StatData stat_type="ThrustDamage" max_value="500"/>
<StatData stat_type="SwingDamage" max_value="500"/>
<StatData stat_type="Handling" max_value="200"/>
<!--<StatData stat_type="FollowUp" max_value="200"/>-->
</StatsData>
<UsablePieces>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_blade_1"/>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_noble_blade_1"/>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_noble_blade_2"/>
<UsablePiece piece_id="empire_noble_blade_3"/>
and so on......