Glaive weaponry is OP atm change my mind

[Darkath]

I think one big problem since M&B is generally thrust weapon are not effective at all (except couched lance) so it's almost always better to swing with any weapon, while spears are almost useless in most case because they bounce of shields and can be parried easily.

The spears also have awkward animations when used in 1-H mode and it's almost impossible to use them, while weapons like glaives and 2h swords which werent widely used instead become very powerful.

I think Swing damage against armor with any blade weapon should be nerfed by a lot, while piercing damage buffed for those weapons.

 

[Apocal]

The hafted blades in Warband did under 40 damage. Great weapons, but the damage was still in line with all the other weapons in that game and they were never a guaranteed one-shot kill. The most powerful weapons in Warband did at most 55 damage and those were really slow. Meanwhile, Bannerlord Glaives do 150-200 damage. They're not even in the same universe.

Eh... hafted blades were the only swinging polearms on horseback in WB. I remember them being guaranteed one-shots on most troops but that might have been with the speed bonus added in. At any rate, being able to swing from horseback was (and is) such a huge advantage for polearms that I'm surprised more people didn't immediately cry foul at BL making it a more common attribute.

It really overshadows lances.

They're only drawback is that they're pretty slow, but you can trade off some length and a little damage to get a fast swinging glaive that still one-shots anything it touches.

I haven't noticed their slowness mattering that much.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Eh... hafted blades were the only swinging polearms on horseback in WB. I remember them being guaranteed one-shots on most troops but that might have been with the speed bonus added in. At any rate, being able to swing from horseback was (and is) such a huge advantage for polearms that I'm surprised more people didn't immediately cry foul at BL making it a more common attribute.

It really overshadows lances.

They were very powerful weapons in WB. Their main drawback there was that they were pretty short, so you'd be at a disadvantage if you were going head to head against a lancer, especially since WB lancers were a lot better at hitting their targets than the inept BL lancers who can't seem to hit a damn thing. BL glaives don't even have the reach disadvantage.

I haven't noticed their slowness mattering that much.

The slowness of the BL glaives is mainly a problem when they do that over the head combo spin move. It always seems to just hang in the air forever on slow glaives. That's why I usually craft shorter faster ones so its less of an issue.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I think one big problem since M&B is generally thrust weapon are not effective at all (except couched lance)

`?

 

[Darkath]

now try without the horse

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

now try without the horse

Ok ? or want more ?

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Ok ? or want more ?

I've changed my mind about thrusting polearms. I used to think they were weak, but now I think its all the other weapons that are too strong. In the duels you're having with other guys on foot, you're hitting for anywhere between 30 and 60 damage. To me, that seems like a good range and that's where most of the swinging weapons should fall too.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I've changed my mind about thrusting polearms. I used to think they were weak, but now I think its all the other weapons that are too strong. In the duels you're having with other guys on foot, you're hitting for anywhere between 30 and 60 damage. To me, that seems like a good range and that's where most of the swinging weapons should fall too.

It depends on armor to but i can land around 120 to on good hits...Also these weapons are perfect for range and supporting behind shield walls hense they should be a little bit weaker because of balance since to me the lesser risk you need to take and so on, I didnt thought much about these in the beginning to but after a full playthru i loved it Funny part is knives can be really good to believe it or not ^^...I made an rogue and had decent skills and still it went around 40 something at almost start...Problem is armor but if you stab its alright . Think if you really practice that weapon as you can combine it with throwing in perk as well it can and will be a cool thing since its so damn fast Problem was i didnt come that far because the game got lost on content for my book and i had to drop it....



Can see the knife in action by the end fight here but i still need practice though to refine its full potential ^^ and thats only 36 skill in one handed so imagine it going up along with perk treats

 

[Darkath]

You are very good and the videos are very cool, but i still stand by my point.
When you are on foot your damage is is almost never higher than 70 and mostly betwen 30-50 even against recruits, even though you're using an imperial lance and are hitting recruits.
From watching your video i'm even more convinced that spears need absurdly high speed to reach the damage level of swing weapons. A menavion with 20 skill in polearm easily one shot the same recruits you need to kill in 3 hits with the spears, no matter which body parts you hit. And in most case even armor will be mostly irrelevant to menavions and other glaives.

So yeah i'm still convinced swing weapons are too powerful compared to spears.

 

[Darkath]

I've changed my mind about thrusting polearms. I used to think they were weak, but now I think its all the other weapons that are too strong. In the duels you're having with other guys on foot, you're hitting for anywhere between 30 and 60 damage. To me, that seems like a good range and that's where most of the swinging weapons should fall too.

Same if anything watching those videos showed me they are not as bad as i imagined, but swing weapons are still ridiculous in comparison.

But i think taking a spear in the head, without a helmet (or even with given most helmets are open) should be 100+ damage, no matter the speed. Here you can see recruits still stand after such dramatic hits in their heads. And thrusting weapons should be the less mitigated by armor compared to swinging (after all plate armors deflecting those piercing blows weren't wide spread, instead, a spear blade could go between the scales of armor or even pierce chainmail in some cases, while blades were not very effective against such armors (the crushing force of the blade would do most damage rather than the cutting part)

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Same if anything watching those videos showed me they are not as bad as i imagined, but swing weapons are still ridiculous in comparison.

yeah its why i made this thread because of balance

 

[Medivhtratos]

Thrust is only effective with speed, as we can see by the Code.

隐藏

public static float CalculateStrikeMagnitudeForThrust(float thrustWeaponSpeed, float weaponWeight, float extraLinearSpeed, bool isThrown)
        {
            float num = thrustWeaponSpeed + extraLinearSpeed;
            if (!isThrown)
            {
                weaponWeight += 2.5f;
            }
            float num2 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num * num;
            return 0.125f * num2;
        }

The Swing "Magnitude" has an other calculation,which is far more complex.

And since all "Thrust" Attacks doing Piercing dmg, they are more effective.

隐藏

public static float ComputeRawDamageNew(DamageTypes damageType, float magnitude, float armorEffectiveness, float absorbedDamageRatio)
{
float num = 0f;
float bluntDamageFactorByDamageType = CombatStatCalculator.GetBluntDamageFactorByDamageType(damageType);
float num2 = magnitude * bluntDamageFactorByDamageType;
float num3 = 100f / (100f + armorEffectiveness);
num += num2 * num3;
if (damageType != DamageTypes.Blunt)
{
float num4;
if (damageType != DamageTypes.Cut)
{
if (damageType != DamageTypes.Pierce)
{
return 0f;
}
num4 = Math.Max(0f, magnitude * num3 - armorEffectiveness * 0.33f);(against Pierce)
}
else
{
num4 = Math.Max(0f, magnitude * num3 - armorEffectiveness * 0.5f); (against Cut)
}
num += num4 * (1f - bluntDamageFactorByDamageType);
}
return num * absorbedDamageRatio;
}

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Thrust is only effective with speed, as we can see by the Code.

隐藏

public static float CalculateStrikeMagnitudeForThrust(float thrustWeaponSpeed, float weaponWeight, float extraLinearSpeed, bool isThrown)
        {
            float num = thrustWeaponSpeed + extraLinearSpeed;
            if (!isThrown)
            {
                weaponWeight += 2.5f;
            }
            float num2 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num * num;
            return 0.125f * num2;
        }

The Swing "Magnitude" has an other calculation,which is far more complex.

And since all "Thrust" Attacks doing Piercing dmg, they are more effective.

隐藏

public static float ComputeRawDamageNew(DamageTypes damageType, float magnitude, float armorEffectiveness, float absorbedDamageRatio)
{
float num = 0f;
float bluntDamageFactorByDamageType = CombatStatCalculator.GetBluntDamageFactorByDamageType(damageType);
float num2 = magnitude * bluntDamageFactorByDamageType;
float num3 = 100f / (100f + armorEffectiveness);
num += num2 * num3;
if (damageType != DamageTypes.Blunt)
{
float num4;
if (damageType != DamageTypes.Cut)
{
if (damageType != DamageTypes.Pierce)
{
return 0f;
}
num4 = Math.Max(0f, magnitude * num3 - armorEffectiveness * 0.33f);(against Pierce)
}
else
{
num4 = Math.Max(0f, magnitude * num3 - armorEffectiveness * 0.5f); (against Cut)
}
num += num4 * (1f - bluntDamageFactorByDamageType);
}
return num * absorbedDamageRatio;
}

so if i understood this right pierce deals 17% better damage against armor then cut right ? Or negate on armor value so to speak but same thing. Thnx for the codes, always fun to see how they are put together these days And yeah im not so keen on the speedbonus on thrown type...which one is that in the first code you sent btw ?

 

[CrazyElf]

One drawback of the glaive is that they don't do so well in sieges where close quarter fighting is needed.

The Vlandian Voulge is probably a better polearm for that, but it in turn is less effective on horseback because of its shorter reach.

Complains about glaive.... but says armor values are fine....

I agree with this.

The irony is that buffing armor would make the glaive a lot less effective. Cutting weapons like the glaive should not be effective against armor. Pierce weapons too.

Blunt weapons would be the main choice against them. That would not make blunt weapons OP though as they tend to do less damage against large numbers of unarmored units.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

The irony is that buffing armor would make the glaive a lot less effective. Cutting weapons like the glaive should not be effective against armor. Pierce weapons too.

Blunt weapons would be the main choice against them.

Its since you dont think about all the other weapons to + your survivability along with your fast recruitment and training of high end troops
Why changing a whole system just because of one weapon, when its the weapon itself that needs to be changed

 

[CrazyElf]

Its since you dont think about all the other weapons to + your survivability along with your fast recruitment and training of high end troops

Buffing armor, which you seem to oppose, would solve the problem of strong glaive weapons in a heartbeat. They would be effective against low tier units and less effective against higher tier units. Then with my suggestion of higher tier units, you would find that they are a very specialized weapon, good for lots of recruits and far less effective at say, killing enemy cataphracts.

Other weapons are available to counter armored units - maces for example.

I think Swing damage against armor with any blade weapon should be nerfed by a lot, while piercing damage buffed for those weapons.

I agree that pierce damage could use a decent buff (it would also help spears become more competitive), but as a whole armor needs a buff. That would really liven up the game.

That would make swing weapons an anti-low tier weapon, while blunt weapons would do better at higher tier enemies. Essentially they become more specialized. Think of it as an equal to the equal of a Vlandian PIkeman, which is a specialized anti-cavalry unit as opposed to anti-infantry units like the Vlandian Sergeant or Voulgier. One would specialize in engaging in small numbers of enemy elite units, while the other is for taking out large numbers of weaker lower tier units.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Buffing armor, which you seem to oppose, would solve the problem of strong glaive weapons in a heartbeat. They would be effective against low tier units and less effective against higher tier units. Then with my suggestion of higher tier units, you would find that they are a very specialized weapon, good for lots of recruits and far less effective at say, killing enemy cataphracts.

Other weapons are available to counter armored units - maces for example.

You dont see the whole picture sir because this system are going to make it more easier for you as a player + alot more work to be done in an system that works pretty well right now...If medium or easy settings is to hard for you right now i would suggest to make a thread so they buff your health values there instead of pushing your agendas in an thread about glaives

 

[CrazyElf]

You dont see the whole picture sir because this system are going to make it more easier for you as a player + alot more work to be done in an system that works pretty well right now...If medium or easy settings is to hard for you right now i would suggest to make a thread so they buff your health values there

I do see the whole picture. Buffing armor simply does not make the game easier. Quite the opposite.

Let's see:

• Buffing armor makes it harder for the player when starting out because now they have no high tier armor and enemy lords would have higher tier armor. Even more so than the current game, this would restrict the player to targeting looters and lower tier enemies at the start.
• Later in the game, armor works both ways. By allowing a higher percentage of tier 4-5 units in an AI's army (which you know I advocated for - https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...-ai-armies-being-filled-with-recruits.434560/), the player will be facing more tier 4-5 enemies and because armor is not paper thin, which it is right now, it means that the game will be harder because a higher percentage of the enemies the player will face will be harder to kill because they are wearing heavy armor that is quite hard to kill. The player may have higher tier units, but so does the enemy. The player has a smaller advantage relative to late game enemy armies.

The current status quo which you advocate for will make the game harder. Paper thin armor, as is this current game, will mean that it is easier for the player to kill lords and higher tier units, which means that the player can engage in parties with lots of high tier units earlier on in the game. By contrast, making armor actually hard to kill means that the player will have to be far more careful in engaging the enemy.

Edit: Typos

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I do see the whole picture. Buffing armor simply does not make the game easier. Quite the opposite.

Let's see:

• Buffing armor makes it harder for the player when starting out because now they have no high tier armor and enemy lords would have higher tier armor. Even more so than the current game, this would restrict the player to targeting looters and lower tier enemies at the start.
• Later in the game, armor works both ways. By allowing a higher percentage of tier 4-5 units in an AI's army (which you know I advocated for - https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...-ai-armies-being-filled-with-recruits.434560/), the player will be facing more tier 4-5 enemies and because armor is not paper thin, which it is right now, it means that the game will be harder because a higher percentage of the enemies the player will be harder to kill because they are wearing heavy armor that is quite hard to kill. The player may have higher tier units, but so does the enemy. The player has a smaller advantage relative to late game enemy armies.

The current status quo which you advocate for will make the game harder. Paper thin armor, as is this current game, will mean that it is easier for the player to kill lords and higher tier units, which means that the player can engage in parties with lots of high tier units earlier on in the game. By contrast, making armor actually hard to kill means that the player will have to be far more careful in engaging the enemy.

Strange because im thinking the hardest difficulty right now is easier with past armor buff so please move on with your agenda somewhere else. We are discussing Glaives here

 

[CrazyElf]

Strange because im thinking the hardest difficulty right now is easier with past armor buff so please move on with your agenda soemwhere else. We are discussing Glaives here

Did you miss my point? Buffing armor will make glavies less powerful against heavily armored units. Glavies do cut damage, which should not be effective against heavy armor.