Ghost edges on a Wings3d Sword. What are these?

[Scaevolus]

I keep seeing "ghost" edges on my sword.  When I have "Show Edges" checked in Wings3d, my view is completely obstructed when viewing the model up close.  When I zoom out they become invisible.  Anyone have a clue what these are?



I've selected all edges on the model (obviously the red lines) but what are these other lines webbing everywhere?

 

[spectre:]

Hm. Hard to tell from this perspective. What did you do? Is it an export from another format? Or were you doing some crazy subdividing? Mirroring perhaps? Or joining separate models together? All of the above? 

Anyways, you may try to select and delete them and see what happens. If nothing, most likely they weren't necessary anyways. If it doesn't mess up your normals and textures, you just might ignore them, because if it is because you joined separate models or imported, it can be fixed but will be a PITA.

 

[Scaevolus]

Is it an export from another format? Or were you doing some crazy subdividing? Mirroring perhaps?

It's a brand new model, no importing or exporting.  If you mean crazy subdividing as in cutting an edge into several vertexes then yes. I definately mirrored the bottom face to make it complete but those lines were showing up before any mirror.

Anyways, you may try to select and delete them and see what happens. If nothing, most likely they weren't necessary anyways. If it doesn't mess up your normals and textures, you just might ignore them, because if it is because you joined separate models or imported, it can be fixed but will be a PITA.

Unfortunately I cannot select them.  When using Ctrl-A to select all edges, these "ghost" lines are not selected.  I made it all from one cube and never imported any other objects.  Not sure what a PITA is, though.

Here's another few shots showing all real edges selected and the black lines are the "ghost" lines:

 

[spectre:]

PITA - Pain In The Ass

Hm. Weird If you take a closer look, all those ghost lines converge at one vertex. You might wan to see what happens if you delete that but most likely it'll tell you that it'll cause a badly deformed face. Try moving it instead and see if the lines move along, and if you can select the lines afterwards.
Would be easier if I could fiddle around with the file.

 

[Khandrak]

I've had this problem myself in the past. You could possibly have some vertices hidden inside of your object. Or you might have some vertices in the back connected to vertices on the other side of the object, through the object, causing clipping. This wouldn't happen normally, but you probably moved those vertices to where they are, while they were still connected to the ones in the back. You'll learn better methods of creation in time. It's something you'll get better at. My first model still has some weird clipping that I'm too lazy to fix.

 

[GetAssista]

Yeah, just find and delete those vertices. They are out there somewhere

 

[Barf]

If you'se send to me I can clean it up for you in 3ds, only take a couple mins. (and no I won't steal it, I have no use just bored since my fallout 3 blew-up.)

 

[Scaevolus]

Hm. Weird If you take a closer look, all those ghost lines converge at one vertex. You might wan to see what happens if you delete that but most likely it'll tell you that it'll cause a badly deformed face. Try moving it instead and see if the lines move along, and if you can select the lines afterwards.
Would be easier if I could fiddle around with the file.

I'm pretty sure that if I delete the vertex they converge on, they will all move to the next closest vertex.

I've uploaded a few .wings save files for you guys to play around with if you want.
Below is a direct link to the "Dark Elf Scimitar" folder which includes the saves. (uploaded on MediaFire):

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ac5b4fbe9e01cde9ab1eab3e9fa335ca9f03507b8d3dda88
Folder Includes:
-Dark Elf ScimitarFINAL.wings (Deleted curve edges.  Mirrored the bottom face to create the final sword.)
-Dark Elf Scimitar FINAL SCALED.wings (Final mirrored sword and scaled to match a standard size M&B sword)
-Dark Elf ScimitarCurveEdges.wings (When making the huge bevel, I connected all the curve vertexes. Why? Dunno.)
-Dark Elf ScimitarUnmirrored (Unmirrored sword, the object is only half the sword)
-Dark Elf Scimitar Final Scaled OBJ.obj (Sword exported into .obj format)

I'm also having trouble importing this into BRFEdit. Why does the .obj look the way it does when exported from Wings3d and imported into BRFEdit?

 

[Barf]

I think your problem is with faces that have over 5 sides. You must cut them in sections, otherwise the program will have a hard time understanding the shape of your polygon.
& before you export to brf make sure you triangulate your mesh...I would open your file and confirm this but 3dsmax cant open wings files...obj would have worked.

 

[Scaevolus]

I think your problem is with faces that have over 5 sides. You must cut them in sections, otherwise the program will have a hard time understanding the shape of your polygon.

That might be part of the problem. Unfortunately, even with all the curves (especially on the handle) being cut and connected as opposed to a single face, I'm still getting all the unselectable ghost lines.

before you export to brf make sure you triangulate your mesh...I would open your file and confirm this but 3dsmax cant open wings files...obj would have worked.

Honestly this is my first attempt at modelling, which is likely why I'm having so many problems.  I'm sifting through Luigi's various tutorials trying to figure out how to UV map, triangulate, etc. 
And here I thought I could just make whatever I wanted and then POOF put it in game and start lopping off people's heads.

I just added a .obj file for you, Barf.

 

[Barf]

the only thing weird I noticed is on the cross-guard, the largest pointy thing is inverted near the tip and goes inside out.
other than that I dont get any extra lines or weirdness in max, do the ghost lines persist after you triangulate?.
edit: also noticed the point on the pommel, the tiny one is also inverted.
you can scale the sword so its thicker and these problems are easier to see and fix. (then scale it back).

btw: the sword is definitely well made for a beginner, keep it up
oh yeah if the sword looks right when you triangulate the mesh before importing into brf, just ignore the lines.

 

[Khandrak]

I've taken a look through your wings models, and I'm not seeing the ghost edges that you're talking about.

What I did notice was that in your unmirrored model, there are some edges that are going through your model. That's probably what your problem is. My guess here is that you started with a basic shape and moved the vertices around into funky positions, but you moved some that were connected across the bottom of your model up so that their lines now move through the model.

Some tips:
You made it way too complex. The curves have too many vertices and the handle has far too many You have to think about this objectively as you're making it. 100 people running around the battlefield with a 2000 polygon sword is a bit much. You'll get better at making things look good with less.

You need to make some of the edges hard. The way edges normally are, they round and smooth when it's actually being done in game. This is quite problematic with things like the edge of your sword, or the point where the sword meets your hilt. If you leave it how it is, you'll have a smooth, rounded mess. Click the shaded cube in the top right corner of wings to see what I mean. So, what you need to do is go into edge mode, and select all of the edges that you don't want to round. The edges of the blade. The part where it starts to taper. Where it meets the hilt. The outside edges of those bumps on the handle. Et cetera. Then right click, hardness -> hard.

To triangulate, select your whole model in face mode, right click, tessellate -> triangulate. That'll do it for you. If your model isn't triangulated, it's going to look like a funky piece of **** with holes in brfedit.

 

[Scaevolus]

the only thing weird I noticed is on the cross-guard, the largest pointy thing is inverted near the tip and goes inside out.
other than that I dont get any extra lines or weirdness in max, do the ghost lines persist after you triangulate?.
edit: also noticed the point on the pommel, the tiny one is also inverted.

btw: the sword is definitely well made for a beginner, keep it up
oh yeah if the sword looks right when you triangulate the mesh before importing into brf, just ignore the lines.

I'll definitely look to fix the inversion areas.  I think Khandrak might have it right in his assumption that by moving the virtices around from the basic shape I had, I crossed planes.  That might be why I'm seeing the ghost lines.
And when I triangulate, the ghost lines disappear but I'm left with a massive poly count.
Thanks for the thumbs up and for taking the time to check for mistakes!

What I did notice was that in your unmirrored model, there are some edges that are going through your model. That's probably what your problem is. My guess here is that you started with a basic shape and moved the vertices around into funky positions, but you moved some that were connected across the bottom of your model up so that their lines now move through the model.

I definitely started with a basic shape and moved the vertices around like crazy to get the shape I needed.  Since I'm completely new to this, I probably did exactly as you described.  I'll look into it.

Some tips:
You made it way too complex. The curves have too many vertices and the handle has far too many. You have to think about this objectively as you're making it. 100 people running around the battlefield with a 2000 polygon sword is a bit much. You'll get better at making things look good with less.

Good point.  I remember editing the Black Hood a while back in Wings and immediately noticing that it wasn't round at all.  The faces were large, flat, and few.  Gonna have to delete some edges on my sword then, since when I triangulate I'm getting 1600 or so poly's and that's waaaay too much, I know.

You need to make some of the edges hard. The way edges normally are, they round and smooth when it's actually being done in game. This is quite problematic with things like the edge of your sword, or the point where the sword meets your hilt. If you leave it how it is, you'll have a smooth, rounded mess. Click the shaded cube in the top right corner of wings to see what I mean. So, what you need to do is go into edge mode, and select all of the edges that you don't want to round. The edges of the blade. The part where it starts to taper. Where it meets the hilt. The outside edges of those bumps on the handle. Et cetera. Then right click, hardness -> hard.

To triangulate, select your whole model in face mode, right click, tessellate -> triangulate. That'll do it for you. If your model isn't triangulated, it's going to look like a funky piece of **** with holes in brfedit.

I had been wondering how I was going to make the blade bevel look like one instead of it being blended/curved.  You just answered that question.  Before triangulating, I exported it as an .obj and when I got it into BRFEdit it looked like **** just as you said.  I was thinking "All this damn work for nothing" till I triangulated.  Awesome.  And with hard edges, it'll look THE ****. Not like ****.  Thanks for the mini-tut.  Much appreciated!

Thanks guys for all your answers and knowledge.  Even though I barely know what I'm doing, I know tons more now that I've asked some questions.