General History Questions thread

[Almalexia]

Most of these navies

Being the key word. The rest of these fleets can usually be discounted in battle, though you picked a list of battles with precious little documentation for me to verify, so thanks for that.  The Battle of Cannanore lists that 180 of the 220 were paraus and zambuks: god knows what a zambuk is, but theoretically paraus refer to the outrigger Proas, which are quite dimunitive. Such profusions of ships in a fleet can even be more a handicap than a help as it restricts the maneuvering of the larger gun bearing vessels in combat. Deck heights and disparities in numbers or power of cannons seems the most likely reasons though, in addition to tactics.

 

[Mamlaz]

Being the key word.

But basically all of the engagements still had numerous large ships to the Portugese few.

though you picked a list of battles with precious little documentation for me to verify, so thanks for that. 

They do have documentation, it is just laborious to come by in English.

I actually had to ask a Brazillian dude I know to translate some stuff for me.

The Battle of Cannanore lists that 180 of the 220 were paraus and zambuks: god knows what a zambuk is, but theoretically paraus refer to the outrigger Proas, which are quite dimunitive. Such profusions of ships in a fleet can even be more a handicap than a help as it restricts the maneuvering of the larger gun bearing vessels in combat. Deck heights and disparities in numbers or power of cannons seems the most likely reasons though, in addition to tactics.

Wrong battle, you speak of the New Years Eve of 1501/1502 battle of Cannanore, I speak of the 1506 battle of Cannanore 

 

[Almalexia]

Ah, found what a Zambuk is: a Sambuk. Thanks Wikipedia for not conforming the data to conventional spellings.  For reference, they look like these:

Spoiler

In terms of shipbuilding, afaik dhows hulls were still tied together rather than being nailed down. Looked into a source on the 1506 Battle of Cannanore, and:

The first trial of this fleet in March 1506 resulted in a disaster for the Samorin; off Cannanore, it ran afoul of a small Portuguese squadron commanded by the viceroy's son Lourenco. There followed a protracted engagement in which one gathers the Hindu, Arab, and Turkish crews were totally untrained and uncoordinated. Many of their largest vessels were sunk and their crews killed or drowned. Much of the fleet escaped, however, for despite high Portuguese estimates of the damage done, it would have been all but physically impossible for the three naus and a caravel, plus some foists commanded by Lourenco, to have sunk...

So largely what I was beginning to suspect while reading the numbers and subsequent losses: Hindu inexperience or at least handicaps at sea, difficulty coordinating Arab, Turkish, and the plethora of Indian ethnicities and language groups in sea battle, and, well, these captains were out on the other side of the world from anyone able to verify their exploits in Portugal, and thus the infamous exaggeration of sailors sets in.

 

[Vraelomon]

I had to skip the last ten pages or so because I really wanted to ask this. Let me know if I missed anything super interesting or if Alma ever made that post about China.

So, anyway, how come the concentration camps in World War 2 were such a big surprise when the allies found them at the end of the war? Shouldn't they have had a decent spy network to tell them about these sorts of things?

 

[Areze]

IIRC it was dismissed as hearsay/no one expected the camps to be as ghoulish as they were.

 

[Bluehawk]

RIP Witold Pilecki. Snuck into Auschwitz, snuck out again, wrote a report and sent it to the UN; no one gave a ****.

 

[Cpt. Nemo]

I remember that the top brass knew about them, but neglected to inform any of the grunts.

 

[Do not look here]

RIP Witold Pilecki. Snuck into Auschwitz, snuck out again, wrote a report and sent it to the UN; no one gave a ****.

 

[matmohair1]

That is not the case, the Mamluk and Ottoman navies they encountered were cannoned large war ships, the Indian ships were obsolete but they were still warships.

For instance;

at the battle of Pandarane the Mamluks brought 17 carracks of the Ottoman build, the Portugese had only 2.

at the battle of of Cannanore, nearly a quarter of the ships were Ottoman ships while the rest were local imitations of European ships.

then we get to the battle of Aceh, where the Sultanate had 20 galleys and numerous other smaller ships, fighting a single Portugese carrack...and lost...

Barbary corsair ships...

Spoiler

 

[Mamlaz]

Looked into a source on the 1506 Battle of Cannanore, and:

Could you share that source please?

Barbary corsair ships...

Do you have anything actually from the Indian Ocean?

 

[RC-1136]

Does anyone know of any sources of dubbing a knight with a club (maybe a royal sceptre ...)?
A German mercenary rider writes in his account of the coronation of Vladislav II. of Bohemia and Hungary in 1490 that Vladislav made him a knight by hitting him on the head with a large club. He even states the story behind it would be too long to tell. Could this be some kind of irony?

 

[Mamlaz]

What is your club source?

It could be a joke.

Because knighting ceremonies could last as much as 6 hours, they were far from the simple sword tap hollywood presented us on screen.

 

[RC-1136]

This is in 1490. Knighting then was often part of a larger ceremony, in many cases included dozens or even hundreds of soon-to-be-knights and were therefore quite short. Knights were dubbed in every proper coronation by the new king.

The source has the misleading title "Erlebnisse eines deutschen Landsknechts 1484-1493" (Adventures of a German Landsknecht 1484-1493) - the author definitely wasn't a Landsknecht but a mercenary in the Hungarian black army. From page 12:

Da wardt ich alda zwm ritter geschlagen,
subintelligitur mit eyner grossen keulen, das mir der Kopff bluttet von meynen eygen herren.
Die vrsach ist vmb kurz willen in der federn plyben

A rough translation might be:
There [during the coronation in Stuhlweißenburg] I was dubbed a knight,
subintelligitur [implied but not expressed?] with a large club by my own lord so that my head bled.
To make it short the reason remains in my quill [-> I won't tell why that happened because explaining it would be too long].

Even if it's irony I would like to know what the author might want to imply here.

 

[Mamlaz]

Hmm, strange.

I will look into it.

But I believe you are wrong in your statement that they were often large ceremonies, the vast majority were single knightings of individuals and the larger ones I know about were to about 10-15 people after an important event or battle.

Actual knights were quite few in number, during the siege of David's tower, out of a 100 men at arms and sergeants, only a single dude was a knight.

Even so, even with a larger number, the ceremony would still last a bit because there were obligatory religious rituals that needed to be done, so that is half an hour minimum.

The club may be one version of the last insult ritual, so he would be bragging how it was a king who ended his ritual.

 

[matmohair1]

Do you have anything actually from the Indian Ocean?

The Grab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grab_(ship)

Mughal-Arakanese battle on the Karnaphuli River, Chittagong - 1666

Spoiler

The Ganj-i-sawai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganj-i-Sawai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Every#The_Grand_Mughal.27s_fleet

Spoiler

Ah, found what a Zambuk is: a Sambuk. Thanks Wikipedia for not conforming the data to conventional spellings.  For reference, they look like these:

Spoiler

more Arabian Sea vessels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhow

Spoiler

Paintings by Xavier Romero-Frias....
Pinisi / phinisi  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinisi
Boom / Dhangi  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_(ship)
Baghlah / Bagala  / Baggala  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghlah

Spoiler

Joasamee Pirate Bagala, 1800-1819
King's College, London

Spoiler

Omani  Cargo Bagla, 1800-1851
King's College, London

Spoiler

Red Sea, Arab Zaruka, 1871-1880
Victoria and Albert Museum, Indian Section

Spoiler

 

[RC-1136]

Hmm, strange.

I will look into it.

Thanks

But I believe you are wrong in your statement that they were often large ceremonies, the vast majority were single knightings of individuals and the larger ones I know about were to about 10-15 people after an important event or battle.

What I wanted to says is that late medieval knighting in most cases I know about doesn't appear as a ceremony of it's own but is attached to another event. Knights were dubbed before and after battles or during weddings and coronations. Especially members of the lower nobility didn't seem to have hosted feasts just for the knighting of a son.

Actual knights were quite few in number, during the siege of David's tower, out of a 100 men at arms and sergeants, only a single dude was a knight.

No objection to that ...

Even so, even with a larger number, the ceremony would still last a bit because there were obligatory religious rituals that needed to be done, so that is half an hour minimum.

Most late medieval sources I know don't go into detail but one account of a knighting in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1460 (Eptinger Familienbuch) describes a quite short ceremony for each knight.

The club may be one version of the last insult ritual, so he would be bragging how it was a king who ended his ritual.

Yes, I agree. That's my guess as well. There seems to be evidence for the use of the hand, staffs, scepters and swords. But hitting someone bloody is kind of a deviation

 

[dinnerblaster]

Here's a historical question for ya'll, anyone remember Obama? Me neither.

 

[omzdog]

Yes

Spoiler

 

[Areze]

Well played.

 

[Swissky]

That Obama looks like it could've been the ruins of a place that housed soldiers.