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Game breaking problems and how to avoid them.

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bakters

Knight
I'm trying to have a real game, where I take over the map if possible.  I just want to be aware of various pitfalls before I invest 100 hours into the game and break my monitor.  It's an expensive one...

Anyway, that's what I found by searching the forum and some early testing:

1.  War with Papal States = war with all catholic kingdoms.
    I join as mercenary and wipe out Papal State before starting my own kingdom?

2.  Angry alcoholics band.
    ?  Don't have a brewery?  Disband them?

3.  Horses with 65 health (tavern drunk has more...)
    Morgh's editor.

4.  Personal looting in battle doesn't always work.
    I don't know what triggers it, maybe companions, maybe ch-level, but it stops working at some point.  Anyone knows what are the exact triggers?  Now I suspect having companions is the reason. 
Edit: I think I figured that one out.  There are two conditions for this thing to work I'm aware of.  For once, you must pick the item exactly during battle.  Live enemies on the map!  Then you must pick up some item you didn't have in your main inventory.  So in a nutshell you must exchange weapons. 


5.  Lords with land defecting to you.
    Kick them out asap?  Native "feature".  I don't think it's possible to avoid it entirely.  I think that tweaking the relation loss for assigning fiefs could vastly improve it.  From my Native games I found that making it range from -2 to +2 (-5/2 is the default value) should make factions much more stable.

6.  High level units with bad equipment.
    I'm not sure about this one, but that's what I gathered from reading the forums.  Turning troop rebalancing on should fix it?

7.  When you take the walled fief you won't get a garrison. 
    Take over the garrison then give it immediately back.  It fills up, but it costs -10 relations with the city.  It can be tweaked so buying drinks in a tavern gives you +10 or dealt with. 

8.  Females don't get the fief when joining factions even with 1000+ renown. 
    Males get the fief with 300+ renown, even from small factions.  Which is good, because if you get the companions and immediately leave, it costs -20 with the liege.  And you get the fief of the culture you actually want too.  No lottery.

(BTW - anyone know if there is a chest of some sort where I can store my early loot?  Like a chest in Rivacheg in Native?)
 

theputnz

Regular
WB
Today I encountered a wierd but gamebraking problems in siege scenes (I am enlisted in lords army as soldier):

1) We ride to defend city of Polotesk and when joining defenders it says enemy forced to retreat, but you cannot leave the conversation otherwise than deserting or revolving your lord. I found workaround to this by leaving on personal matters before entering city and then rejoining already inside it, then it let me to join siege battle;

2) We won (as defenders) the battle, but there were left 3 enemy troops fastly teleporting from one point to other. The allies standed ground only firing arrows and javelins when they came into shooting range. 2 of them were killied this way, but 3rd one teleported outside the walking/shooting zone and I couldn't finish the battle otherwise than retreating (not getting win morale, loot etc.). I suppose the only workaround could be activating cheats and kill such runners? Maybe it has to do something with sized up battles (I use 300)?
 

bakters

Knight
Thanks guys.  Stuck troops happen in Native too, and it's no biggie to kill them off with a cheat.  I don't use Freelancer beyond exploiting it for extra companions. 

Chest in Pula seems to work.  I put some items there and they did not disappear so far.  I'll wait a week before committing with important stuff, like Masterwork Hunting Self Bows.  If it will continue to work, it will change my early game.  Instead of running around with companions I will first amass their equipment, so they can become effective from the get go. 

I'll need to search for more chests like that.
 

Valen

Recruit
I've seen the teleporting last guy bug.  Hopefully he pauses now and then or get stuck himself and can be killed.

Another semi-game breaker is that one castle design puts troops in a area you can't gain access too in the retreat battle area.  Workaround is to Tab out and siege again.

UPDATE:  You can also climb the tower and jump off into the area but you'll have to kill them all yourself, I couldn't get anyone to follow.
 

bakters

Knight
Thanks.  I did one siege defense up to now, and I simply reloaded, because it couldn't be won.  We had no chance, because it was essentially a foot battle.  No advantage for the defenders once the enemy broke through the gate, and it took them all of a minute.  Almost nobody died on their side, we were shooting at their shields.

It seems I won't do many siege defenses.  Just let them take it, and take it back again.
 

bakters

Knight
I seem to be unable to rescue prisoners.  My liege is captured, I got there to get him out, but the guard is never hostile and I can't attack him.  Other AI on the map go hostile, so it seems to be a bug.

Not a game breaking stuff, just an annoyance.  I have to wait for peace to leave my faction.  It takes too looong.
 

bakters

Knight
I don't know, would it?  All my SP experiences with newer WB versions left a sour taste in my mouth.  Anybody did a proper playthrough on it yet? 
 

Valen

Recruit
I was able to free a prisoner under 1.66 WB and 1.11 1257.  You have to talk to the prison guard and demand the key, then he'll go hostile.  Kill all the guards to complete the sequence.
 

bakters

Knight
Well, yes.  But can you finish a faction?  My nephew cheated himself into it and he was successful on 1.03.  I tried to do it on Diplomacy 4.3 WB 1.66 and it was bugged. 

Maybe I'll write one more comment, to DrThomas specifically, as he seems to be glancing here.  I'm not trying to criticize this mod, his work, or even Taleworlds.  I'm just trying to find practical solutions to practical problems which I may face, before it's too late.

I can wait for peace.  I'm not doing a speedrun.  But I'm thinking in speedrun terms.  Like I'm planing a route through the game.  That's what I find interesting and challenging.

 

xat

Sergeant
bakters said:
Well, yes.  But can you finish a faction?  My nephew cheated himself into it and he was successful on 1.03.  I tried to do it on Diplomacy 4.3 WB 1.66 and it was bugged. 

Maybe I'll write one more comment, to DrThomas specifically, as he seems to be glancing here.  I'm not trying to criticize this mod, his work, or even Taleworlds.  I'm just trying to find practical solutions to practical problems which I may face, before it's too late.

I can wait for peace.  I'm not doing a speedrun.  But I'm thinking in speedrun terms.  Like I'm planing a route through the game.  That's what I find interesting and challenging.

You get XYZ Faction is no more screen. But its better to take all their fiefs, kill all lords so they can't harrass your lands, and then ask for piece. That way you will get 3 Right to Rule and the other faction will die anyway, because they won't have land or place to replenish the troops.
 

Valen

Recruit
bakters said:
Well, yes.  But can you finish a faction?  My nephew cheated himself into it and he was successful on 1.03.  I tried to do it on Diplomacy 4.3 WB 1.66 and it was bugged. 

Maybe I'll write one more comment, to DrThomas specifically, as he seems to be glancing here.  I'm not trying to criticize this mod, his work, or even Taleworlds.  I'm just trying to find practical solutions to practical problems which I may face, before it's too late.

I can wait for peace.  I'm not doing a speedrun.  But I'm thinking in speedrun terms.  Like I'm planing a route through the game.  That's what I find interesting and challenging.

No, too many issues I can't get around.  I love the lance system and scope of this mod but I'm putting it on hold and hope many of the issues will be addressed in a future update.
 

bakters

Knight
Valen said:
No, too many issues I can't get around.  I love the lance system and scope of this mod but I'm putting it on hold and hope many of the issues will be addressed in a future update.
  And I'm older than that. :wink:

Anyway, thanks xat for info.  I stay with 1.03.  Factions dying off "eventually" is not good enough for my playstyle.  I finished Diplomacy 4.2 in 162 days.
 

bakters

Knight
OK, so this might have done it for me.  F1>F2 Follow me does not work in 1.03.  It works without a minimap, but the minimap is totally gone then.  No info about how many enemies remained and even no prompt upon retreating a battle before the end.

The next problem are those stupid default formations for troops.  Cavalry will charge in a wedge formation.  Even if you purposefully stretch them, they will reform and beeline towards the enemy.

Cavalry did not use this formation often.  It's inefficient.  The absolute best option is when every lance in a banner hits the enemy at the same time.  So yes, they did use tight formations if they had enough training to do that well, but during middle ages they most probably could not attack in such a way as to transition into full gallop and tighten the formation just before contact.  Default WB works fine for what medieval cavalry could do.  Follow me, then charge. 

What they did not do for sure is beelining toward the enemy in "wedge" often.  The problem is the same as with Warband, that is if the first guy stops or simply turns sideways, his followers will crush into him, and probably kill him on the spot.  You need to leave space for stuff like that happening, so you must attack in a very loose formation, and most of your guys won't even have a chance to contact the enemy.  (I'm not saying it was never used, but when it was used it was more like a V aiming at gap, or something along those lines.)

I will try some custom assignments.  Maybe follow me works fine for those?  I will try it for a bit, but if that does not work, I'm afraid I will give up.  I really need to be able to command my troops well, and with all those changes it is simply not possible.
 

kalarhan

Python Saint
Count
WBNWVCWF&S
you do know that you can change formation or simple break it at any time by using the F1....F4 commands, right?
 

bakters

Knight
So I tried it.  F-commands have no way of breaking the formation and the cavalry is simply broke in this version of the mod (1.03).  Infantry is close to broke too. 

Thankfully, Horse Archers seem to behave normally.  They will follow you like in Native, they will charge like in Native and I assume that any custom group you create will also default to Native.  So I can do it after all, albeit it will be a hassle.  I will have to reassign every cavalry unit I use to my custom group, and if I join a siege it will be a mess. 

But it's doable.

Anyway, the default wedge is just terrible.  The first guy is stopped on a spear and dies within a second because he has like 4 or 5 polearms against him and the rest of the group gets stuck behind him.  I gather that someone thought that it was realistic to use wedge like that, but it isn't.  He was mistaken.  We have a decent idea on how medieval knights fought because of Winged Hussars who retained their organisation and used it with splendid success during much more recent times with lots of records left.

Similar situation with Infantry.  It may look "realistic", but it isn't.  The idea behind ranks for spearmen is to maximize the number of spear points directed at the enemy, so first you would use a very tight formation, then double it up with another row or two.  Phalanx like that is almost impenetrable from the front, but weak from the flanks or rear.  Swordsmen used loose formation in two or three ranks.  Those extra ranks were important for relieving tired soldiers and replacing losses.  Loose formation allowed you to wrap around tightly packed phalanx with equal numbers, and beat them this way.  You don't have to do anything to achieve this outflanking maneuver.  Your center will fall back all on its own, your wings will push towards the enemy flanks all on their own too and once the carnage starts, phalanx may falter and panic.  The battle of Leucra played like that (iirc).

Of course, in Warband it's all superficial.  Real strategy in Warband has more to do with aggro management and with timing your orders properly than with looking fancy.  Reinforcements are a crucial part of actual strategy.  By playing right, you can insure local force superiority, which wins actual Warband battles. 

Which brings me to my final point.  The dichotomy between something which looks realistic and something which feels realistic in a game.  Is it realistic that the Pope hates you if you harm a catholic lord?  Yes, it is.  Is it realistic that people won't respect your "kingdom" if you lack Right to Rule?  Yes it is.  But does it feel right if a guy from Norway comes to the Egypt to burn a single village because you captured a lord from Albania in a small skirmish in Libya?  The whole Norway didn't even know if Libya existed.  It was all "sailor's tales" at best.
 
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