Frustrations with Warband strategic AI

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Gruumsh

Regular
Old Guard
So I've been playing Warband, and then Floris, hoping the mod would fix what's frustrating me.  It doesn't.  Every game I've played ends exactly the same way.

The game is fun and enjoyable right up until mid-game, when I've got an army of hardened, veteran warriors, picked a side, and gone on the attack.  For a while it's fun and challenging until I smash all the high-level units in the field and start taking over the territory of whomever my nation is at war with.  I'll take a city or two, and the king always takes this as a signal that he needs to declare another war.  I rush to the new front, smash the big 300-man army, lick my wounds and smash the handful of 150-man armies, then take another city or two.  This is apparently the signal that the king should start yet another war.  He won't give me any more of the cities or castles I take, and he won't give them to anyone with a real army.  As near as I can tell, all the king does is declare wars and hold feasts.

So I'll be rushing from city to city, swatting at these swarms of 50-man ****-tier armies which are flitting around like fruit flies, and no matter which city or castle I rescue, the fruit flies gather everywhere I'm not.  No one except me seems to have any interest in defending territory.  My side's armies are all clustered in a big pile, sieging another castle they can't or won't defend, or gathered at another fscking feast.  Meanwhile, I'm bleeding red ink everywhere because the king has declared war on the whole planet and all my businesses are sequestered.

I'll be desperately trying to hold off 15 or 20 little armies of peasants buzzing around my holdings, then I'll be ordered by the marshall to cross the fscking continent so I can stand still for two weeks to siege a useless, strategically valueless castle in the middle of nowhere.  At that point I usually throw my mouse across the room, yell in frustration at my keyboard, and delete all my savegames.

Is there any purpose to the game in single-player?  The AI seems to be designed to deliberately nerf itself by over-extending and never defending itself.  I can understand why they'd want to make a game which self-balances so one side doesn't just sweep the map, but it makes me feel frustrated and powerless.  I can conquer any city or castle on the map, but what's the point?  Am I playing this wrong?  If I'm going to be at war with the whole planet anyway, I guess I could strike out on my own and become my own king, but I don't see this being any less frustrating.

Any advice?
 
Been there, done that.  :lol:
The funny thing is that the enemy AI will always concentrate on raiding your defenseless villages while you follow your faction's idiotic marshall all over the map.  I also notice that the king of whatever faction I sign up with grows an extra large pair of balls and declares war against multiple factions especially if my army is powerful.  I started using JosieJ's "workaround" regarding following the marshall; once I fulfill the "bring X number of cattle to resupply the marshall's army" quest, I never talk to the marshall to claim my reward.  I can then go about securing my own fiefs and towns without getting penalized for not following the marhsall.  I also use the swap fiefs with another lord option (Diplomacy Mod) to try and consolidate my holdings so that they are all close together and easier to defend.  But invariably, it is time to strike out on your own.
 
I don't remember if this is a Native option, but if the king doesn't give you fiefs then rebelling against him is always a fun option.
 
Having your own kingdom is much more enjoyable than beeing a vassal of some AI king, and I recommend you to get diplomacy mod, because it gives you lot more kingdom management options than the native and has lots of other features as well.
 
Is there a mod which combines Diplomacy with Floris?  I'm really enjoying the expanded Floris troop trees.
 
Knight of calradia said:
Diplomacy mod is already in floris mod, if you didn't knew :smile:.

No, I didn't know, thanks.  I haven't seen any dialogue for swapping fiefs (which would be very useful), but I'm sure it's buried in there somewhere.  What would be very nice is the ability to send the king a message saying, "SHTAAAHP, NO NEW WAR GET."  At least let me consolidate what I've already conquered, doofus.
 
Yes, the AI is retarded, if you had enough, make your own kingdom or start a claimant quest, so you can control the politics by yourself.
 
I have had that situation happen to me enough that I put off joining any faction until all of my companions have maxed out their trainer skill to their amount of intelligence, and at least one of said companions are >lv.20. Then be sure to enlist any units you get from battles to save time and money on training (unless roleplaying). Even the worst units are useful in those type of wars.
 
Gruumsh said:
Knight of calradia said:
Diplomacy mod is already in floris mod, if you didn't knew :smile:.

No, I didn't know, thanks.  I haven't seen any dialogue for swapping fiefs (which would be very useful), but I'm sure it's buried in there somewhere.  What would be very nice is the ability to send the king a message saying, "SHTAAAHP, NO NEW WAR GET."  At least let me consolidate what I've already conquered, doofus.

You have to go and talk to the lord who owns the fief that you are interested in.  Obviously, he needs to be in the same faction and that you need good relationship and persuasion skills to pull it off.  Once you are successful he will ask you to reimburse his moving costs which is around 500 denars I think.  But at some point, you will get fed up with your warmongering monarch because all of the constant campaigning will leave you very little time to manage and build up your lands let alone defend them.  I've completed several games wherein I limited myself to 2 towns and four villages that I've developed to the max.  I've declined numerous awarded fiefs and towns to save me the headaches. 
 
michaelvillena said:
Been there, done that.  :lol:
The funny thing is that the enemy AI will always concentrate on raiding your defenseless villages while you follow your faction's idiotic marshall all over the map.  I also notice that the king of whatever faction I sign up with grows an extra large pair of balls and declares war against multiple factions especially if my army is powerful.  I started using JosieJ's "workaround" regarding following the marshall; once I fulfill the "bring X number of cattle to resupply the marshall's army" quest, I never talk to the marshall to claim my reward.  I can then go about securing my own fiefs and towns without getting penalized for not following the marhsall.  I also use the swap fiefs with another lord option (Diplomacy Mod) to try and consolidate my holdings so that they are all close together and easier to defend.  But invariably, it is time to strike out on your own.

Hmmm.... a curious case of deja vu, I'm sure I saw you post the same words exactly somewhere else, I just can't seem to wrap my head around it. I might as well take up being a Belligerent Drunk if thats the state of my memory.
 
michaelvillena said:
all of the constant campaigning

I am now at day 500 or so, and there has not been a single day of peace in the entire game.  I'm with Swadia, and there has never been less than two simultaneous wars.  Usually it's three or four.  Literally the same day Swadia makes peace with someone, they declare war with someone else.  In fact, they seem to declare peace ONLY when I've abandoned my holdings to grimly try to destroy a faction entirely.  As soon as I have them on the ropes, Swadia declares peace, then switches to a new war with the toughest, best-rested enemy on the map.  It's infuriating because it seems to me the game is deliberately trying to prevent me from winning.  That would be fine if it was my enemies trying to stop me, but the game's AI appears to be using my own supposed ally to deliberately sabotage itself in an effort to stop me.

I've gone from city to city, sneaking into them where necessary, trying to get a guildmaster quest to stop a war, and in the entire length of the game I have not got a single one yet.  I don't think this is coincidence.  Call me paranoid, but I feel the heavy hand of fake difficulty trying to extend the game because the devs got lazy.

Edit: I have six cities, one castle, and one village.  My current income is... zero.  That's right, zero.  Not a single denar.  Because the king has made war on the entire world, what few caravans set out are ambushed the second they set foot out the door.  Despite being the largest faction by far (thanks entirely to me), Swadia is virtually helpless because we have only a handful of nobles left.  The nobles which haven't defected have been kicked out by Harlaus.  The better I play the game, the more obviously and deliberately incompetent the king becomes to try and nerf me.  This is a shining example of fake difficulty.
 
Rhoden said:
michaelvillena said:
Been there, done that.  :lol:
The funny thing is that the enemy AI will always concentrate on raiding your defenseless villages while you follow your faction's idiotic marshall all over the map.  I also notice that the king of whatever faction I sign up with grows an extra large pair of balls and declares war against multiple factions especially if my army is powerful.  I started using JosieJ's "workaround" regarding following the marshall; once I fulfill the "bring X number of cattle to resupply the marshall's army" quest, I never talk to the marshall to claim my reward.  I can then go about securing my own fiefs and towns without getting penalized for not following the marhsall.  I also use the swap fiefs with another lord option (Diplomacy Mod) to try and consolidate my holdings so that they are all close together and easier to defend.  But invariably, it is time to strike out on your own.

Hmmm.... a curious case of deja vu, I'm sure I saw you post the same words exactly somewhere else, I just can't seem to wrap my head around it. I might as well take up being a Belligerent Drunk if thats the state of my memory.

:lol: Belligerent drunk?  :lol: I've always LMFAO'd whenever I encountered them.  It is hilarious when all of the other NPCs start running all over the place trying to get away and when the tavern keeper yells "No shooting" if I whip out my bow.  I literally fall off my chair laughing.  I know....I know, I'm easily amused :mrgreen:
 
Gruumsh said:
michaelvillena said:
all of the constant campaigning

I am now at day 500 or so, and there has not been a single day of peace in the entire game.  I'm with Swadia, and there has never been less than two simultaneous wars.  Usually it's three or four.  Literally the same day Swadia makes peace with someone, they declare war with someone else.  In fact, they seem to declare peace ONLY when I've abandoned my holdings to grimly try to destroy a faction entirely.  As soon as I have them on the ropes, Swadia declares peace, then switches to a new war with the toughest, best-rested enemy on the map.  It's infuriating because it seems to me the game is deliberately trying to prevent me from winning.  That would be fine if it was my enemies trying to stop me, but the game's AI appears to be using my own supposed ally to deliberately sabotage itself in an effort to stop me.

I've gone from city to city, sneaking into them where necessary, trying to get a guildmaster quest to stop a war, and in the entire length of the game I have not got a single one yet.  I don't think this is coincidence.  Call me paranoid, but I feel the heavy hand of fake difficulty trying to extend the game because the devs got lazy.

Edit: I have six cities, one castle, and one village.  My current income is... zero.  That's right, zero.  Not a single denar.  Because the king has made war on the entire world, what few caravans set out are ambushed the second they set foot out the door.  Despite being the largest faction by far (thanks entirely to me), Swadia is virtually helpless because we have only a handful of nobles left.  The nobles which haven't defected have been kicked out by Harlaus.  The better I play the game, the more obviously and deliberately incompetent the king becomes to try and nerf me.  This is a shining example of fake difficulty.

I've always had that problem being a vassal to an A.I. King.  They always get super aggressive.  I might have mentioned it before but Swadia is the absolute worse.  They are smack in the middle of the map surrounded by enemies, their lords are constantly bickering so there is very little unity and King Harleus loves to keep conquered land to himself.  In my honest opinion, I don't think it's because of any "fake" difficulty.  That's just how it plays out given the circumstances.  If anything, expect the same results if it were real life.  Imagine a kingdom that's surrounded by potential enemies.  Add a bunch of lords that don't get along and a king that's a greedy bastard.  I'm certain that most historians would agree.
 
I would agree that it isn't fake difficulty (at least, not intentionally), but it isn't particularly historical either. Take the "holy" "roman" "empire" (quote marks because it was none of these), and even at the times when it had the most schieße kaisers, and the most independently minded lords, it wasn't fighting several full-scale wars because it's kings were never that stupid. Medieval wars would drain a treasury very quickly, and quite often you wouldn't get that money back unless you conquered sizeable territory. Even the crusades were a financial disaster.

Warband ai works differently, if it thinks it's winning a war, it will sue for peace. This is to simulate a battered kingdom begging for a ceasefire i suppose, but the game recognizes a faction as "beaten" even if they lose a few troops, which happens a lot. Also the game will pick a new target if it thinks the old one is weak, but doesn't calculate it very precisely and doesn't account for how quickly a kingdom can recover
 
Your main problem is being a vassal of Swadia; they're in a horrible position in the centre of the map. As they get attacked by multiple factions, their lords lose land. Losing the land causes them to lose significant amount of relation with their King. So does losing battles, though not quite as much. Thus as they lose battles and land they start to hate their king. The King must fix this, and the only way to do this is to host a feast. The feast allows everyone to restore their relationship, however as they lose more battles and land whilst feasting they start to lose more relationship, thus feasts become very common, otherwise all the lords would leave the faction. Even as you take enemy lands and you cause Swadia to 'win' the war, the lords still need to have their relationship restored and so the feasts continue, as you win the battles but the lords of Swadia lose them.

It's basically just two different parts of the AI that are conflicting because you keep on winning the battles.  The first part is the King's declaring war AI based on war progress and success in expanding their kingdom. It's seeing the kingdom expanding, and so declares war on 'weak' kingdoms. The second part is the King-Lord relationship AI, showing the Lord's relationship dropping and therefore feasts must be called to fix the relationship.

The easiest fix to this for the devs/ a mod would be to expand Swadia's land slightly into the sea; giving them one more city, 2 more castles and 5 more villages, and removing Dhirim and the surrounding castles and giving them to a 'neutral' or rebel faction. That way Swadia would only border the Rhodoks and Nords, and whoever took Dhirim would have an extra city as well as some castles to give them an advantage, but then border every other faction as well.
 
Well, I just ragequit.  That's it, I'm done with Swadia.  I've spent the last two hours taking and defending and re-taking and re-defending two castles which Swadia can't or won't defend, mainly because enemies keep launching attacks from those castles on MY fiefs.  This cost me most of my top-tier troops.  All while at war with three nations, all of them declared by us.  My reward for all of this?  The king just declared war on the Khergits, the only nation with which we were were not yet at war -- and who are at full strength, and who border *my* lands and no one else's.

When I feel less like smashing my keyboard, I'm quitting Swadia and becoming my own kingdom.  If I'm going to be at war with the whole planet, I might as well reap the benefits.

This is seriously poor AI.  I don't remember it being this bad in M&B.
 
Gruumsh said:
Well, I just ragequit.  That's it, I'm done with Swadia.  I've spent the last two hours taking and defending and re-taking and re-defending two castles which Swadia can't or won't defend, mainly because enemies keep launching attacks from those castles on MY fiefs.  This cost me most of my top-tier troops.  All while at war with three nations, all of them declared by us.  My reward for all of this?  The king just declared war on the Khergits, the only nation with which we were were not yet at war -- and who are at full strength, and who border *my* lands and no one else's.

When I feel less like smashing my keyboard, I'm quitting Swadia and becoming my own kingdom.  If I'm going to be at war with the whole planet, I might as well reap the benefits.

This is seriously poor AI.  I don't remember it being this bad in M&B.

You see my post?

Arcaian said:
Your main problem is being a vassal of Swadia; they're in a horrible position in the centre of the map. As they get attacked by multiple factions, their lords lose land. Losing the land causes them to lose significant amount of relation with their King. So does losing battles, though not quite as much. Thus as they lose battles and land they start to hate their king. The King must fix this, and the only way to do this is to host a feast. The feast allows everyone to restore their relationship, however as they lose more battles and land whilst feasting they start to lose more relationship, thus feasts become very common, otherwise all the lords would leave the faction. Even as you take enemy lands and you cause Swadia to 'win' the war, the lords still need to have their relationship restored and so the feasts continue, as you win the battles but the lords of Swadia lose them.

It's basically just two different parts of the AI that are conflicting because you keep on winning the battles.  The first part is the King's declaring war AI based on war progress and success in expanding their kingdom. It's seeing the kingdom expanding, and so declares war on 'weak' kingdoms. The second part is the King-Lord relationship AI, showing the Lord's relationship dropping and therefore feasts must be called to fix the relationship.

The easiest fix to this for the devs/ a mod would be to expand Swadia's land slightly into the sea; giving them one more city, 2 more castles and 5 more villages, and removing Dhirim and the surrounding castles and giving them to a 'neutral' or rebel faction. That way Swadia would only border the Rhodoks and Nords, and whoever took Dhirim would have an extra city as well as some castles to give them an advantage, but then border every other faction as well.
 
Arcaian said:
You see my post?

I did.  It helps to understand the mechanism, but I can see from this thread that my experience is pretty close to universal, which means that the only way to play past mid-game is to adopt one particular strategy, of becoming king yourself.  This is very poor design on the part of the devs.  How many games did QC play?  This problem should have been readily apparent.  In a game based on totally open sandboxing, to railroad players into a single strategy due to poor AI is a huge issue.
 
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