Friendly/Ranked gaming

正在查看此主题的用户

frederic 101

Regular
Hi everyone!

I had an idea for Mount & Blade: Warband. TO have a ranked and unranked multiplayer.

Unranked: No limits for the rules for hosting,  easy to get better equipement but resets everytime...

Ranked: Limited rules for hosting. One you choose a faction, you always play this one. It's hard to get you weapons, armors, horses, etc. Your equipements are hard to get because they will cost really more but once you bought them. You have them forever. A good thing would be to be able to sell your equipements (20% of the real price if used by exemple).

Other stuff to improve:

-Have a friend list. To add friends. You can simply search their name or make them your friend by clicking on their name in the scoreboard while playing.

-Have a trading system: It would be interesting to be able to trade our equipements with other players (ranked). You could bargain with others to get you weapons for a bit less.

-Have a clan generation on Mount & Blade itself: Having our own page to create our join a clan. Once you clan is created (name, description, resctrictions, settings), you can invite players (friends) to join you clan. So instead of playing a  default faction. Could play your own faction. To make sure that it's not every noob that creates himself a clan. You put an amount of gold to pay and create your clan. So if your clan is serious and you have many players interested in joining. You can simply ask them to split the price within the members by the trade system.
 
I didn't notice that this thread was a similar idea I had, and started a thread about:

"I think a good game mode that could be limited to certain servers would be a sort of continuity mode, where you do get to level up your character and keep equipment from game to game. Sure, people will argue that this will just be overpowering for the really good players, but if there are team bonuses and such, even the suckiest player will be able to slowly progress. I think it would add a feeling of progression which is needed in the multi-player game. It's something that I really liked about the game America's Army, the fact that you can progress."
 
Any kind of persistency leads to what is known as "grinding."

In the case of singleplayer, the grinding can sometimes be addicting, in the case of multiplayer, the grinding addiction is raised to the tenth power.

In short, it will indeed end up making more people play the game more, but in my opinion, it is not good.

To have ranked play, just have ranks of some sort for show, but don't have them give an actual advantage in play, in any way.  The best games are usually the ones that can be played competitively, and for a game to have balanced competitive play, it can't have this sort of persistency.
 
Garnier 说:
Any kind of persistency leads to what is known as "grinding."

In the case of singleplayer, the grinding can sometimes be addicting, in the case of multiplayer, the grinding addiction is raised to the tenth power.

In short, it will indeed end up making more people play the game more, but in my opinion, it is not good.

To have ranked play, just have ranks of some sort for show, but don't have them give an actual advantage in play, in any way.  The best games are usually the ones that can be played competitively, and for a game to have balanced competitive play, it can't have this sort of persistency.

People don't grind in AA though, If worked out correctly, you can avoid grinding altogether.
 
I don't really like the idea of mixing character progression and skill-based combat, because most players tend to fall into an average level of skill wherein one player having better stats mean they win most of the time. Actually, a player who has put more time into their character would generally have more experience and be better. Therefore, they would always win because they'd tend to be more skilled + better stats and gear.

The best way to go this route, in my opinion, is to not have personal-based experience. Make it team based, and scaled based on the relative levels of each team. If one team has many more levels than the other team, they make nil experience. To make this work, it requires we get away from the idea of limiting players to one faction, however, because if they're stuck on one faction they can't possibly balance the teams.

You'd have to force some players on the bigger / more leveled team to quit or go spectator for the round, maybe have them rotate out so they all get a chance over consecutive rounds.

That's really the only way I could see any system that locks players into playing one faction persistantly, being balanced. Some factions will be more popular than others, some factions will be much more numerous than others and the difference in numbers will only become more skewed as more people join in order to be part of the biggest, most winningest faction. You have to make matches fair by keeping the levels / population in a round somewhat even, or every round would be slanted horribly.

The playerbase, which is largely very mature and great, already has issues with keeping team balance. People tend to decide they've had enough if their faction is losing too much, or sometimes when it's winning too much, and quit, so the other team is bigger and either continues winning or starts winning (which isn't so bad in that case since it keeps things interesting!).

If you could actually gain progress by winning, team balance would be skewed /every time/ unless you have a hardcoded balancing mechanism on every Ranked server. Simply put, most people would join whatever faction or side wins the most because they want to progress the fastest. Everyone hates grind, not everyone's got the patience to take on more challenge and more grind just for the sake of being fair.

(edit): Another, more organic way of balancing it that occurs to me is have the experience / gold gained rely entirely on the power and numbers of enemies defeated. Having the XP / gold be team-based tho scaled according to level (lower levels / poorer folk will advance slightly faster, but higher level folks like knights will take a lion's share-- which to them is more a pittance), helps keep everyone interested in their team doing well, instead of everybody freelancing trying to get the best targets for themselves. That happened at the Battle of Agincourt, supposedly, and it caused a great deal of chaos and bedlam we probably don't want to spend a lazy Sunday wading through. We don't want to encourage players to be selfish, because when such game mechanics bring out the worst in people it can rather ruin things for everyone.

Under that system, the underdog would naturally have greater potential to earn points because they would have more, richer targets. HOWEVER, it's very true in massed warfare that a more numerous or equal numbered but heavier armed/armored enemy could utterly trounce their opponents without taking more than a few scratches. So, it should be that they're given pity XP / gold just for trying. Call it, their nation being desperate, digging into their reserves, and sending more expensive troops over time. The XP / gold for being a notably inferior force, even if they don't manage to kill anyone, could be equal to what their opponents receive-- yet worth more because of them being lower level.

Simply put, I don't want to see a system where newbies are forever ground into dust. Simply put, those who start out on day 1 when everyone's equal would otherwise have a far far easier time climbing the ranks than anyone who joins later, and that's a really great way to kill your community off when we're talking about a strictly competitive-style game.

(edit): Wow, another thing to occurs to me, why not have the Ranked servers such that it applies a subjective power level to your character. Basically, the 'economy' for each side would be balanced depending on how much XP/prestige/whatever they have. EACH side would, on that server, for that round, have their own share of powerful knights, heavily armed infantry / archers, standard troops like basic cavalry and pikemen, and peasant rabble. Where you fall in that scale depends on how you compare to the rest of your team.

The idea behind that is that each side wants to field an army and spends the same equivalent to hire soldiers to protect their interests.

Furthermore, the side that has less players would promote players from the top down. That is, you're going to have the same number of high-tier troops as the enemy, and the extras on the other side remain low tier. Exactly how this is calculated could/should be a server option, but with an eye toward keeping a generally 'fair' balance on all Ranked servers.
 
A persistent character online...

Hmm...

No.

Why?

Because then the game would become separated into the "elite" and the "noobs." We don't need that. We'll be getting some of it anyways, there will be clans that think they're high-rolling hot-**** sons o' *****es, but that's unavoidable. If the game just made it easier for that, then I'm not sure if I'd even bother with multiplayer. I know for a fact I can thoroughly enjoy M&B in singleplayer already.
 
On the topic of consistency vs. keeping your character etc etc.

I say keep online how it is. Many game modes, no persistency, the only thing determining win/loss is how you play that round, and thats how it should be.

The game that seems to be a medieval counterstrike, and honestly, thats a good thing. Short rounds, no respawning, tracking your money and losing equipment on death.

A requirement for the online mode to be "fair" is that its not based on hours played. If someone was really awesome at singleplayer M&B combat, then logs into the online server where he gets killed by the guy with super uber armor and ultra sword of doom, you guys are introducing problems that plague MMO's with no benefits of being an MMO.

Let the depth and enjoyment of a persistent character and all that goes with it, stay in single player where it can shine, and where it belongs.
 
The thing is, there isn't any uber armor, or swords of doom in M&B. Also, it would be an option available to only certain servers, not all. Why not have both modes of play? Also, it's not like progress is slow in M&B. If prices are kept similar to single player for weapons and armour, I'm sure that it wouldn't take long to get decent armour and weapons for a halfway skilled player.
 
I was initially hostile to the idea as well Thorbinator, but I think there might be a way to balance it.

I'm totally against the idea of standard MMO persistancy where you remain objectively powerful everywhere you go and can gank noobs like crazy.

What I'm for is a subjective system where the server 'ranks' players depending on their prestige, for each side, so that the equipment and possibly skills are actually equal. So you put your time in and get a decent ratio of team wins/losses, you're more likely to become a knight or sharpshooter or what-have-you as the strongest class in your faction.

Then again if you come onto a server where your side is outnumbered or outleveled, you're also more likely to become a knight or what-have-you because there'll be less higher-ranked players above you.

Should you be on a server where there's lots of high-ranked players on each side, yes a new person would probably be stuck as rabble (albeit with a useful, very lethal weapon-- like a pike that used well can kill an unwary charging knight, or a crossbow that can score a challenging shot and ding off a great deal of their health). But, because the degree of XP / gold / prestige gained by winning can be much higher in this 'balanced' mode, your higher-level allies should take a keen interest in keeping you alive. Intelligent high-ranked players should see the value in shepherding and improving the effectiveness of newbies on their team, because with combat being as lethally fair as it is, even peons count!

This fits with the concept that I envision of medieval warfare where knights would typically feel themselves above the act of fighting mere rabble, mere peasants (even trained soldiers). They would naturally want to bring their own rabble and trained soldiers to fight, so that they could focus on defeating their equals. Similarly, if there's a lot of knights / noblemen showing up to fight, then your own knights / noblemen would spring into action to try and gain glory in war-- perhaps take a few prizes to sell for ransom and increase their prestige even further. That is the way in which I see medieval society and its caste system, resulting in balanced battles-- at least when it comes to skirmishes over minor objectives, which most battlefields so far are.

Furthermore, a larger army would typically be slower, while a smaller army is more maneuverable. Right now on M&B Singleplayer world map, obviously an army of knights with high pathfinding has good speed and is incredibly strong. BUT, if we assume in Warband that everyone's got wagons or stable horses inbetween fights, it would figure that inferior armies would always retreat and successfully at that.

Thusly, we end up with yet another explanation for why these battles would always be evenly matched. The opposing generals always assume that they themselves are craftier than their opponents, thus, in an evenly matched battle they may very well both charge into the fray and battle to the bitter end! And so, we have an utterly thematic reason why armies of roughly equal power, and only armies of roughly equal power, would fight!

Certain battles, however, could be slanted deliberately to one side, like proper sieges where the attacker is at great disadvantage. The current Castle map really just mildly inconveniences the attacker-- no boiling oil or flaming tar pits, spears jutting through murder holes, no moats with spikes on the bottom. But, once we have really well defended castles, it would be expected for the attacker to bring far more troops. As the besiegers, they have that right! Ideas for well-defended castles without extra coding for boiling oil, murder-holes or spikes--- simply multiple battlements with fall-back positions. Make it difficult for the attackers to just charge and slaughter the defender before they can fall back, like perhaps make the ladders more obvious and slower to go up so they have a warning-- after all, the attackers are going to outnumber the defenders, defenders need every advantage they can get to make things interesting! It was expected in siege warfare, generally, that 3 attackers would be necessary per every 1 defender, or else they'd have little chance of victory through conventional tactics.

The point of all this, of course, is to simply make a scenario that's slanted massively to one side in numbers, enforced by slanted population limits, to add variety to multiplayer.

Speaking of the overall balance between higher levels and lower levels. Weapons shouldn't get much better as you go higher up in the ranks, because really, they just didn't get /that/ much better in effectiveness with medieval technology. A simple spear be it in the hands of an infantryman or light cavalry can still kill a knight, as could a bodkin arrow in the right spot or a crossbow bolt. This is how it is right now in Warbands, and I like it. A naked peasant with a standard spear, if he uses it right, can slaughter a knight with the best armor.

As I see it the main difference between the social classes in medieval, was the sophistication of their armor. Padded cloth is a given, leather was very cheap, and stiffened or reinforced leather while slightly more encumbering was also cheap, but effective. Leather covered in metal rivets or scales starts to get spendy. Hard metal armor was really quite expensive, especially things like platemail which had to be specifically fitted for the wearer and could take years to have made. Chainmail takes a great deal of work and craftship, but is worth it as you can layer it over padding and get good all-around protection without sacrificing mobility. An archer would need to be either quite wealthy or have wealthy ancestors to pass down a fine suit of chainmail, and even then, a well-aimed arrow could be lethal-- just less so than if he'd been wearing hardened leather or nothing at all. A man in platemail, would very likely be some form of noble with wealth beyond the wildest dreams of the common folk, and yet charging another knight in a joust during war, he could die in an instant.

How the balance would work team-wise, is that knights (or very well-disciplined pikemen or rabble) would naturally be needed to kill other knights, and they because they want their team to do that would be their primary vocation. Rabble is needed to fight other rabble, lest the numbers of them overwhelm highly trained but much less numerous skilled troops. Rabble would be especially vulnerable to archers, who in turn can be most readily defeated by light infantry using shields or light cavalry if the archers are in the open. Even without 'hard counters' or a strictly enforced rock-paper-scissors (which I don't want to see in M&B either), we just naturally find that it's best to focus on defeating our equals, and so we get equal battles assuming that both sides are organized and using the same tactics (which most times isn't so, which keeps things interesting!).

So, this idea of ranks and privileges could actually ENRICH the game, rather than cheapen it, which any persistant-progression system threats to do.

By playing often and playing well, you can rise in the ranks faster, but you'll always be squaring off against equals in the grand scheme of things, and only your skill will tell the difference. So what if you play often... your opponent will have roughly equivelant abilities and armor. You can be charging a knight whose only been playing a week because his team is all low leveled, while you've been fighting for months... yet the victor is decided in that moment when the lances strike..

So what it comes down to, is even if you play morning noon and night and grind the hell out of it, it still comes down to skill. You'll have time to hone that skill, but when you beat your equivelant on the other team, you'll know it's because you fought better in that engagement. Not just, you've grinded more ranks.

edit: I could see this working with the standard classes in a much simpler fashion, just by changing the reward system. The highest ranked players would either gain gold the fastest or start with better gear. Each team would have the same number of higher ranked tiers filled, players would only be compared vs their own teammates. Prestige growth can be just a flat amount given to the whole team, modified by individual player accomplishments. A character who just goes totally rambo and kills ten enemies would get 2 or 3x the experience for the fight as a player who died without getting a kill. Since that dead guy still soaked up a few shots and served as a distraction, he's still allowed to advance a little. If his team wins, he still gets a better win/loss ratio and can therefore rise in rank.

Note that the bonus for defeating a team that's smaller and less ranked than you is less, and defeating a team that's bigger or higher ranked than you is more. SO! If your team actually turns out to be better organized, luckier, more skilled in a round and wins against a 'superior' team, you can rise in rank faster, and eventually, achieve the same rank, whereby each team defeating the other would gain the same amount.

So anyway, the players who put the most time in and help their team win, will get perks. New players have something to aspire to, and they can raise faster by defeating players who have more perks than they do, thus making it a bit of a meritocracy. Everybody happy, yeah?
 
We will have MODS.

The persistant, continuity, living-breath world will be made through  MODS wether the oposers want it or not.

People will make all the possible and unimaginable changes just so it ressembles an MMORPG.

Just look at the size of the mod community for the game. It has hundreds of thousands of posts on the forum, hundreds of modders. People will not run out of ideas, they will not run out interest.

The only issue is "what are the limits to mods".

A server with huge maps and persistant character progress will be the first popular mod to be released, just wait and see.
 
We should just have certain ranks but these rank just unlock new facial features or something of that type ( new colored armor or hair, etc).
 
Kevlar 说:
We should just have certain ranks but these rank just unlock new facial features or something of that type ( new colored armor or hair, etc).

I disagree. There should be no official ranks of any kind what so ever. The only form of ranks should be in possible add-ons. Again, as ive said before, I know nothing of M&B modding (I've only used some of magelord's text tweaks in my native). But the way other games like this work. (And by like this I mean, no persistance, each map is a whole new game). Like TF2 or L4D. Ranks are done by players' add-ons that keep track of stuff and find some way of ranking. This way, it is in the player's control to remove, erase, reset, or whatever. This game is TEAM BASED. the needs of the TEAM are >> bigger than the needs of the individual.

You can see how this plays out between another company who made games. Look at valve. Again, tf2 vs L4D. TF2 is more stats and it just happens that people looking out for their own stats makes the team sufficient. Then they made l4d. L4D has very very few stats and ranks that it displays. Why? They did not want people obsessed over their own stats. They wanted people to work as a team. As long as the team wins, you win. If the team owns, you own.

Warband is the same. The more stats and ranks you put in, the more it will focus on the individual and not on the team. You with all your high and mighty stats are nothing without the rest of your team. People need to remember that and never forget that.
 
We might not have progression on Vanilla servers.

But mods certainly will have, and they will be very popular.
 
frederic 101 说:
Hi everyone!

I had an idea for Mount & Blade: Warband. TO have a ranked and unranked multiplayer.

Unranked: No limits for the rules for hosting,  easy to get better equipement but resets everytime...

Ranked: Limited rules for hosting. One you choose a faction, you always play this one. It's hard to get you weapons, armors, horses, etc. Your equipements are hard to get because they will cost really more but once you bought them. You have them forever. A good thing would be to be able to sell your equipements (20% of the real price if used by exemple).

Other stuff to improve:

-Have a friend list. To add friends. You can simply search their name or make them your friend by clicking on their name in the scoreboard while playing.

-Have a trading system: It would be interesting to be able to trade our equipements with other players (ranked). You could bargain with others to get you weapons for a bit less.

-Have a clan generation on Mount & Blade itself: Having our own page to create our join a clan. Once you clan is created (name, description, resctrictions, settings), you can invite players (friends) to join you clan. So instead of playing a  default faction. Could play your own faction. To make sure that it's not every noob that creates himself a clan. You put an amount of gold to pay and create your clan. So if your clan is serious and you have many players interested in joining. You can simply ask them to split the price within the members by the trade system.
I dislike the idea of progression entirely. It would take away the relaxing feeling of gaming. You would always be playing very concentrated, absolutely determined not to make mistakes... And then you meet a guy with equipment worth 5x your equipment, and he rides by on his champion courser and shoots you in the head with his masterwork warbow, before taking out his masterwork lance and lancing a few guys. That is not what I would play.

EDIT (ranting on): Apart from that, having to play the same faction all the time with the same equipment all the time would force you to keep playing the same style of character all the time. NEVER anything different, ALWAYS cavalry, or ALWAYS infantry, or archer, you get the point.

Friend list would be nice though.

EDIT: @Stromko
Though the "guy with equipment worth 5x your equipment, and he rides by on his champion courser and shoots you in the head with his masterwork warbow, before taking out his masterwork lance and lancing a few guys" argument becomes unvalid in your system, the other arguments still stand.
 
well they could have a level system like

1-10 server

10-20

and etc

also one server just for a mix of everyone ahaa

that would work
 
后退
顶部 底部