France, 1420 mod--suggestion/discussion

[Lynores]

Haha, alright.

By the way, let me know if you want the back of the gorgering to have that V shape or just a semi circle.

EDIT: That was an import of the bmp color map right? My own editor keeps going ballistic on me as well, I had to do it all manually.

 

[Cirdan]

You mean the V pointing down the chest? no, a semi-circle would be more logical, since it doesn't have to be attached to the pansière in back.

 

[Lynores]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I'll keep the semi. I've edited the post above, by the way.

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

Number Fourteen: German early Gothic armour. Same comments as for #13 apply. The armour itself was drawn by V-l-D based on a manuscript, but if Wikipedia's photos are good, is very similar to a suit kept in the Tower of London

I have currently in a book   (can't find a pic online, yet) of what is most probably the armour you're talking of, the caption reads "Armure complète et bardes à cheval (innsbruck, fin du XVe siècle). Tower of London Armouries "

 

[Cirdan]

Ooh, that's a nice book you've got. "Late XVth century" is vague, but you're right: it's not likely  such an armour would have been seen on the battlefields of the 1420s . Which is a shame, as it's rather beautiful.

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

Ooh, that's a nice book you've got. "Late XVth century" is vague, but you're right: it's not likely  such an armour would have been seen on the battlefields of the 1420s . Which is a shame, as it's rather beautiful.

It is.
Funny how, when you delve into the matter, you realize how wrong your stereotypes are wrong, and how pieces of armour you associated with the hayday of chivalry were actually not worn untill its dusk. The stuff would look nice in a Swiss vs Charles the Bold mod or something though.
About the book, neither mine, nor alas having enough illustrations to properly illustrate the author's articles :/

 

[Lynores]

Let's have another go.

The gorgerin and the bevor have been rescaled according to the head and closed in the front. Forearms made a little thinner and the helmet and head merged for a better rescale. From the reference, I presume its a helmet over chain, so the helmet has a rescaled section beneath to allow for a different texture and height. The bevor was moved up to the mouth. Let me know what to improve here.

EDIT: Don't mind the uneven shadows in the third picture, that's because I have yet to triangulate it.

 

[Cirdan]

You went and made the sallet as well? that makes you double-awesome. The model is now looking really nice. One thing I've been thinking about this, though:

The vambraces need to be rigged, by the way, so they can't be an obj file along with the gauntlets, or they would move along with the hands. I haven't tried it, but I believe the inverse can be done, attaching the gauntlets to the forearm and having it all as a single mesh and rigging it there as an smd. However the player would be able to fit another gauntlet over the original ingame. Its your call.

If the vambrace is kept as it is, though, then you're right, people contributing gauntlets gotta have an eagle eye there.

I've been working on item stats, and it doesn't seem very worthwhile to have separate gauntlets. Civillian gloves I could see as a kind of fashion accessory, but when it comes to protections, what portion of the combined torso and arms protection will guantlets account for? Not very much, even though hands are more likely to be hit than an equivalent area of your back (assuming, of course, that you're fighting and not running away). Similalrly, what's the cost of gauntlets, relative to the rest of the armour? more than what it would be based on weight alone, since they'll be some of the more labour-intensive pieces, but it still won't be huge. So having separate gauntlets won't make much sense--it would be more logical to just remove them and ask for all models to have integrated gauntlets. The problem that then arises is about reusing existing models, though. Do you think it's doable? How hard would it be?

Finally,

EDIT: That was an import of the bmp color map right? My own editor keeps going ballistic on me as well, I had to do it all manually.

I can confirm my problems were due to the image's resolution. What resolution are your colour maps? I had to put mine in 512x512 for it to work.

Of course, once the map's imported, fine-tuning things and making it actually look good in the game becomes the hardest part Damn vertices!

 

[Lynores]

I've been working on item stats, and it doesn't seem very worthwhile to have separate gauntlets. Civillian gloves I could see as a kind of fashion accessory, but when it comes to protections, what portion of the combined torso and arms protection will guantlets account for? Not very much, even though hands are more likely to be hit than an equivalent area of your back (assuming, of course, that you're fighting and not running away). Similalrly, what's the cost of gauntlets, relative to the rest of the armour? more than what it would be based on weight alone, since they'll be some of the more labour-intensive pieces, but it still won't be huge. So having separate gauntlets won't make much sense--it would be more logical to just remove them and ask for all models to have integrated gauntlets. The problem that then arises is about reusing existing models, though. Do you think it's doable? How hard would it be?

Well, the bone for the hand is there, I'll just bridge a gauntlet mesh, rig it and see how M&B handles it. I have never tried it, but I am considering the same for peloponnesian war, except I would rig the full trousers for scythians. I'll give it a try. Regarding gameplay, of course that'd be just a matter of increasing the armor price and its body armor protection to make up for it.

You're right about the other models. Each armor will have to sport its own gauntlet, and the individual ones would have to be removed from items.py.

Reusing existing models as in integrating gauntlets to vanilla's current meshes? That's just a matter of exporting them as 3do from wings (most obj importers are messed up for max), then importing the 3do in max and welding the vertices, making it all a single mesh. If the bordering vertices from both models are not the same number, it might be necessary to add a few edges to even them out for welding. Then rig them and rearrange the uvmap. Not hard at all, a bit time consuming depending on the number of armors to be fixed.

I can confirm my problems were due to the image's resolution. What resolution are your colour maps? I had to put mine in 512x512 for it to work.

I have no idea, it was back when I've done the map, it was the first thing I've done for the mod. 

I'll try that out, might be handy for the next map version.

 

[Cirdan]

Eek. Welding vertices I could conceivably do, rigging...I've never even tried it. I've got Blender (at least i think I haven't uninstalled it, frustrated me greatly though). How hard would the rigging be? While I'm at it, even I ought to be able to to at least shave off the ugly ridges behind most of Native's gauntlets.

 

[Lynores]

For this particular bit of project, not hard at all. In max its just about selecting the skin and using a weight of 1.0 for all hand vertices in relation to the bone. Since everything else is already rigged, there should be no trouble. It's better to cut the skin, import the 3do, attach it to the smd then paste the skin again, though, or it might get lost in the process. I'd recommend a much larger uvmap for all armors though, to get them a high resolution texture.

Is it just me or are we jumping our threads back and forth answering each other? 

 

[Cirdan]

We are jumping back and forth

And is it me, or is your credo "All texture, no poly"?

 

[Lynores]

Very true. 

What do you think, is the model good to go? If it is, I'll be rigging and mapping it, then I'll try the bridged gauntlet ingame.

 

[Ursca]

Cirdan: If you're looking for sallet helms, I've got my sallet helm pack up here.

I've done a lot to it since I last uploaded a version, including full LOD meshes for all the pieces, better textures, feathers and a kettle helm.
If you want, I can send you a BRF with a load of the updated helmets in. (plus textures)

 

[Lynores]

Actually it just occurred to me that the gauntlets are md3s with a vertex animation. Provided the integrated gauntlets work, they'll have to be exported as md3 and the gripping frame exported as smd. It will have to stay that way, though. The hand won't open (to be honest I haven't even noticed those hand vertex animations ingame, do they actually open while not holding anything?  )

EDIT: By the way, why is it that you want them a single mesh? To avoid clipping or perhaps there will be some complex arm guards?

 

[Cirdan]

What do you think, is the model good to go? If it is, I'll be rigging and mapping it, then I'll try the bridged gauntlet ingame.

Can't find anything wrong with it. Specially like the besagews (how can such an awful-sounding term be in use), the circular armpit defences (you know, when I first saw them on a suit of armour I mistook them for decorations ), I've never been able to make proper circles in Blender or Wings myself. Been searching for colour pics for a texture reference, but haven't found any on the internet yet. What's the proof that re-enactors invest all their income in their hobby? their websites are sloooow....

Actually it just occurred to me that the gauntlets are md3s with a vertex animation. Provided the integrated gauntlets work, they'll have to be exported as md3 and the gripping frame exported as smd. It will have to stay that way, though. The hand won't open (to be honest I haven't even noticed those hand vertex animations ingame, do they actually open while not holding anything?  )

EDIT: By the way, why is it that you want them a single mesh? To avoid clipping or perhaps there will be some complex arm guards?

The idea was to avoid clipping without having the uglyness which is Native's 'ridge' sticking out behind the wrist, and simultaneously to improve gameplay by taking away an item of armour which isn't really justified (complete arm-guards would be, but not gauntlets unless the body area breakdown becomes much more detailed). MD3S is Max's proprietary format, right? That's bad news for me.

Cirdan: If you're looking for sallet helms, I've got my sallet helm pack up here.

I've done a lot to it since I last uploaded a version, including full LOD meshes for all the pieces, better textures, feathers and a kettle helm.
If you want, I can send you a BRF with a load of the updated helmets in. (plus textures)

I've seen your sallet pack, would love to see your improved meshes/textures, Ursca.

 

[Lynores]

Can't find anything wrong with it.

Good deal.

Been searching for colour pics for a texture reference, but haven't found any on the internet yet. What's the proof that re-enactors invest all their income in their hobby? their websites are sloooow....

Yeah, I was just going to ask you that.

Regarding the integrated gauntlets, I'll see how the engine handles them, and how the smd will react. If everything works smoothly I'll pull the trick myself later on, no worries. Though if the hand do grip and open all the time in vanilla, you might want to reconsider, afterall we'd have a static hand mesh in there. Your call, I'll let you know.

 

[Cirdan]

The only hand motion I've noticed in Vanilla was forming the fist. I suspect they also move when shooting arrows. I'll have to another look, and see how problematic that would be.. What I fear is that it might be one of those details you don't consciously notice, but still affect immersion and are missed if they're removed.

 

[Lynores]

I have worked on a 1024x1024 texture sheet for that armor alone. Since it's a nobleman's armor, I presume you'll want it with a high resolution texture. Let me know if you want a smaller uvmap. I've been working on TPW simultaneously, so don't mind if it takes a while.

 

[Cirdan]

It's fine if you take your time, I've already wasted several hours because of a nonsensical error. Even after debugging my code until it works, I still don't understand what the problem was (I've posted here and on MBX asking for advice, because I'd hate to waste mroe time on the same stupidity). Not to mention the map, which looks fine in the editor's god's eye minimap view, but awful in detail.

Oh, and did I mention the difficulty in finding a proper colour reference? because, working from photos, the texture will have to be Frankensteined from different pics--and even that will be hard, because there doesn't seem to be a single good-looking brigandine photo on the internet, and while I could have sworn I had some on my hard drive, the only brigandine pic I've found was Manchurian ca.1600CE. For some reason, re-enactors (the main source for photos of medieval equipment) seem to massively prefer plate over the (IMO better-looking) brigandine.