France, 1420 mod--suggestion/discussion

[Lynores]

Number Eight: a Breton nobleman whose armour is the lovechild of plate and brigandine, with some chain mail ancestry thrown in for good measure. Will kill for this model.

I'll get that one. Here's a rough sketch. Let me know what to change here. Once it's good enough I'll smooth some areas for a better look, clean some edges and import into max for vertex welding, uvmapping and rigging. Let me know if you got any more references for that one, brother.

 

[Llew2]

How do you intend to work the pavise? Just sticking it on the back of the crossbowmen wouldn't really work, considering that they don't turn around when reloading.

 

[BorianM]

What about early firearms - they were used in late period of HYW. There are some stuff needed in different mods - in Duces&Mercs one cool looking  handcannon-on-pole and some good early examples in some mods for 0.7 M&B versions/

 

[Cirdan]

Lynores: the speed with which you produced that model has made me realise one thing: given how fast you work and how long you've spent on The Peloponnesian War, it's not just going to be a great mod; in all likelyhood it will simply blow my mind with its greatness.

The only fault I can find with your model, is that there should be more space between the plate pansière covering the lower torso and the armpits, and the upside-down V-shaped part should curve more steeply. The neckguard should parhaps be given slightly more volume, to emphasise that it's siting atop the brigandine (unless you think you can achieve that effect with texture alone?). I get the impression you intend to cut off the sleeves after the elbow, to make room for the gauntlets without potential clipping troubles; that's fine, as long as it looks good (and I trust you when it comes to making models look good). I was wondering, though, if it would be possible to separate entirely all arm-guards from body armours; I'm not sure if it's even legit for M&B gauntlets to cover up to the shoulder and I don't know if it would mean more, less, or the same workload in terms of modelling, however. What do you think of that idea?

At any rate, thanks for taking time off from your own project!

BorianM: There's a beautiful handgonne model in Raptor's weapon pack, and I'll definately be using it. I've seen the Dukes&Mercs model and I'll see what it looks like in game, as well. Now that we have module_animations.py and the next BRFedit will probably contain animation editing support, there's even the hope of getting some fantastic animations to make handgonnes perfect, but that's conditional on the next BRFedit release. I might even try my hand at animating things myself, but if I do, expect disaster to ensue. Artillery might be used in siege scenes, but right now, that's a long way off. My first priority is working on the map, and getting it working in the game. Even with the travel time paramater in module.ini, it's going to be difficult to get a large enough map in the game because of the low vertice limit. I'm beginning to fear I may have to exclude some regions from the mod's scope in order to concentrate on Central and South-West France, which would be a shame.

Llew2: until we can have full animation editing, having the pavise used right will be difficult. However, we can script a scene prop to spawn in response to a key, so if we can have custom animations then it would be possible to have a character take his pavise and position it in front of him. I'm not sure about being able to attach a script to spawned scene props to make them interactive, but if that's possible then a character could setup and recover his pavise in mid-battle. The real head-scratching will then be about getting AI crossbowmen to make proper use of it. Of course, already having it, even as just a huge shield, would be better than no pavise at all.

 

[Lynores]

Lynores: the speed with which you produced that model has made me realise one thing: given how fast you work and how long you've spent on The Peloponnesian War, it's not just going to be a great mod; in all likelyhood it will simply blow my mind with its greatness.

That's flattering, man. Unfortunately a lot of that time was misspent, with several past models and textures being redone, but I hope it will be for the better.

the upside-down V-shaped part should curve more steeply

Good call.

The only fault I can find with your model, is that there should be more space between the plate pansière covering the lower torso and the armpits, and the upside-down V-shaped part should curve more steeply. The neckguard should parhaps be given slightly more volume, to emphasise that it's siting atop the brigandine (unless you think you can achieve that effect with texture alone?). I get the impression you intend to cut off the sleeves after the elbow, to make room for the gauntlets without potential clipping troubles; that's fine, as long as it looks good (and I trust you when it comes to making models look good). I was wondering, though, if it would be possible to separate entirely all arm-guards from body armours; I'm not sure if it's even legit for M&B gauntlets to cover up to the shoulder and I don't know if it would mean more, less, or the same workload in terms of modelling, however. What do you think of that idea?

That was my plan for the neckguard, that way I'd avoid a higher polycount, but it shouldn't be a lot higher afterall, I'll see how far it goes. I'm not sure what you mean about the arms though, aren't there two sections for the armguard in the reference? Hand and forearm, three sections if counting the elbow guard, considering they need to be articulated?

I was wondering, though, if it would be possible to separate entirely all arm-guards from body armours;

Unfortunately gauntlets (and hands themselves) are obj extension files, not smd, so they cannot be rigged to the body separately. You'd have a bouncing arm all over the place.

Below is the texturing plan:

At any rate, thanks for taking time off from your own project!

No problem at all.

EDIT:

What's its name by the way? Does the source mention it? It'd be good if I could find a couple more references.

 

[Cirdan]

Lynores: V-l-D simply states that it's a brigandine with pansière and braconnière over it, and describes it by the individual pieces.
Here's a photograph of the braconnière (you'll have to excuse me, translating technical terms isn't always easy ):

If you can understand French, there's this link which also mentions (note 45) soldiers wearing these pieces of plate harness over a brigandine, without a plate plastron. There's also an illustration, including (fig. 13) a brigandine with the pansière over it, but different pauldrons from V-l-D's illustration, and since it's not shown being worn, does not include the braconnière or other pieces, and generally the level of detail is lesser, I don't think it will make a good modelling reference:

In this illustration, fig. 28 is wearing an armour that is similar to that in V-l-D, but it is very lacking in detail and TBH if it wasn't for the legend (original page here; it's in French) I'd think it was chain, and not briagndine.

Would anybody here happen to know the English for pansière? I know the braconnière translates to fauld, but apparently Wikipedia ignores the very existence of the three-piece cuirass. I've found a PDF that just describes it as a "lower breastplate"--is that the only term?

Unfortunately gauntlets (and hands themselves) are obj extension files, not smd, so they cannot be rigged to the body separately. You'd have a bouncing arm all over the place.

Shame. Oh well, gauntlets can't cover more than the hands and forearms then

That's flattering, man. Unfortunately a lot of that time was misspent, with several past models and textures being redone, but I hope it will be for the better.

Well, at least you didn't achieve that level of proficiency overnight, or else I'd be insanely jealous
Time isn't misspent when you learn from your failures I might misspend if I made further attempts at modelling, because I just lack the fine motor co-ordination--I can't draw either, and even my handwriting is ugly  . Which is why I tend to be impressed by graphical wizardry.

That was my plan for the neckguard, that way I'd avoid a higher polycount, but it shouldn't be a lot higher afterall, I'll see how far it goes. I'm not sure what you mean about the arms though, aren't there two sections for the armguard in the reference? Hand and forearm, three sections if counting the elbow guard, considering they need to be articulated?

Yes, there are three sections. By 'arm-guard' I was referring to the whole thing, rather than to the individual pieces; I had been wondering if it would have been possible to separate entirely plate arm protections for all armour from the body armour, to allow the player to 'pick and mix' the pieces of his harness, but it seems that's not going to be possible, as you said above.




In general, I'm still working on the map. Took me a while to get the hang of efficiently using the map editor's import function. I'm also having to experiment with map sizes and travel times. If anyone has an opinion about gameplay vs. realism in terms of travel time, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Lynores]

Great. Those will do, I just wanted to look at another picture to have an idea of its variety. I'll look up the name, perhaps I get lucky.

 

[Cirdan]

Well, as I understand it there was an important ad hoc aspect to alot of people's armour. The rich lords would order a full harness of the latest fashion, with decorations 'n' stuff, but most people (including the bulk of the minor nobility) would probably not be able to afford the entire harness in one go. So you'd order the most important pieces first, and then the rest as you got the money for it, or else supplement them with battlefield loot, or else combine them with old armour parts from your father/uncle/older brother. That would make for some armours with a distinctly motley appearance.

 

[Lynores]

Now that I got your point about the armguard, I got back to the model. The pansière V curve was made steeper, the plate neckguard was detached from the model then extruded down, and finally reattached. Extruding it directly along the y axis or normally would give an odd shadow perspective because of the edges in the middle. It will look even now. I've taken the liberty of doing a similar design for the back, I have no idea what they looked like, and the references don't cover that. Let me know if you have a preference for the legs. I would texture my way out of it though, because if might get a bit high poly triangulated, but I guess you won't be spreading it all over the battlefield.

Tell me what to change.

EDIT: Also some pictures of the back if you have them.

 

[Cirdan]

Well, I'm assuming you're leaving the forearms 'plain' (like in many vanilla M&B models) so as not to have potential clipping with gauntlets that cover the forearms? That's fine. I'd have the forearms be covered by just chain then, but that's a texturing issue.

For the back, it seems people are less interested in the backs of armour than its fronts But the only plate he'd have in the back would be the back-piece of the pansière (it's usually considered part of the same piece, even though it's forged separately and attached at the sides--you can see this in the reference, as well), and of course the neck guard. Here's a pic where you can barely make out what corresponds to the pansière in back:

You can see though that it doesn't come up as high in back as in front, and, to the best of my knowledge, it wouldn't have a buckle in the back either.

For the legs, since AFAIK you can have the 'greaves' include the poleyns (for the knees) and cuissardes (for the thighs), then it's fine if the model stops at the chain mini-skirt beneath the fauld/braconnière. It shouldn't have any clipping issues, at least I hope not.

 

[Lynores]

Good deal.

EDIT:

Regarding the forearm, if you'd rather have a visible plate model instead of just the texture, it's just a matter of rescaling it and adding some edges near the elbow.

It's possible to make the model much smoother (arms, neckguard, torso etc), though I wouldn't recommend due to polygon issues. Your call.

 

[fisheye]

Just saw this thread. Holy crap Lynores that is one nice armor model. Brilliant use of polies, lovely shape, flawless! I am in awe.

 

[Lynores]

Thanks a lot man.

 

[Cirdan]

Thanks, Lynores. And Fisheye: I take it you understand why I've offered Artemis a hekatomb when his mod comes out? time to buy more livestock

Besides messing with the map, I've been playing around with potential NPCs. Here are a couple of ideas, what do people think?

'Red' Aodan: Aodan is an irishman from Louth, that is to say, the English Pale. He was indentured for servcie as an archer on the continent during Henry V's great expedition, and now, after five years of loyal servcies in France, he's finally free to go home. Unfortunately for him, he accidentally lost his lord's half of the indenture, and that gave his captain--a most villainous man, assuredly, with a grudge against the poor Aodan--the pretext he needed to brand the Irishman a deserter. Now, he can't find passage for Ireland or England, because in the ports the King's men have been warned to arrest a red-haired Irishman returning home without his lord's leave.

Agnès, bastard of Daumes: Times are hard for everybody, even the nobility. Agnès' father wasn't one of those ruined knights who'd die of hunger if they couldn't find employment as mercenaries, but by the time he'd given his eldest (and legitimate) daughter a suitable dowry, all he had left was his fief--and that will be the eldest son's inheritance. For Agnès' other brothers, a military career was an obvious choice; for her, the choice was alot more difficult. But in the end, a bastard with an inconsequent dowry couldn't expect a decent husband, and she couldn't put up with convent life, so that was the only choice left. Not that she has any regrets, mind.

 

[Lynores]

That's how it looks now. The back has been readjusted, the forearm plate section rescaled and a few edges fixed.

Most parts are now bridged together forming a single mesh.

Feel free to mention any innacuracy or say it if you'd like some extra detail or smoothing so then I can uvmap it and port the 3do to 3DStudio for rigging.

 

[Cirdan]

Looks good. I'll trust your judgment on the forearms, you're the expert when it comes to making stuff look good. One thing I should've noticed earlier though, the gorgerin looks like a collar on a modern shirt, when it should fully enclose the throat. Otherwise, thumbs up

 

[Lynores]

Nah man, I'll do this the way you want and as accurate as possible. Regarding the neck area, you mean bringing the opening to a V instead of a straight line in the bottom? Or the neckguard itself? Let me know what to do with the forearms, if you'd rather have them smoothed, or a different shape, etc. You won't be releasing the mod anytime soon so we've got plenty of time to get things right.

 

[Cirdan]

You won't be releasing the mod anytime soon so we've got plenty of time to get things right.

Alas, you're right. The map has taken more time than planned, already  And the only one I've got working so far I still consider a rough draft. I've get the basis for a much better one in .bmp, but the map editor keeps ****ing up my imports I haven't headbutted my monitor yet, but I get the feeling I soon will be. Fortunately, I have been working on some other things as well, like dialogs for the new NPCs, other new NPCs, factions, and changing the name of the money.

Regarding the neck area, you mean bringing the opening to a V instead of a straight line in the bottom?

More like no opening. The gorgerin would normally close fully, and then you fit the bevor over that (or sometimes they were the same piece). There would be some more-or-less visible hinges and closing system (buckles, lacing, whatever). Here's a photo where you see a gorgerin (I think it's the same term in English and French) quite similar in shape to the one on the reference:

The one here barely covers the throat at all. On the reference from V-l-D, you can't really see where the gorgerin stops and the bevor (the part guarding the lower face) begins because he seems to be wearing some kind of jewelry or decoration; it's alright if the gorgerin covers the throat but then it should cover it fully, rather than leaving the windpipe exposed.

Let me know what to do with the forearms, if you'd rather have them smoothed, or a different shape, etc

That's the thorny bit, because what I ask from you here will influence what I will have to ask from future modelers. Put simply, I'd like to have gauntlets that merge into the vambraces more smoothly than in native for all my armours; that means I need to either ask for all armours to exclude vambraces and leave cloth or chain on the forearms, with the vambraces being part of the gauntlets; the problem is that, since I can't ask for entire arm-guard sets, vambraces being part of gauntlets might then have trouble fitting with the elbow-guard (couter). So I'm currently thinking it would be best for the vambracesto be part of the body armour, in which case I'll just have to ask any people who contribute gauntlet models to be extra careful. If and when they contribute these models, of course.

All in all, that means it would be best if the forearms had the vambraces on them; your latest version looks like it has them, but perhaps they should be a little thinner (about as thick as you made the spaulders and the couter).

 

[Lynores]

I am getting old and blind indeed. I mistook the shadow on the gorgering for an actual opening. I'll fix that, nevermind.

You won't be releasing the mod anytime soon so we've got plenty of time to get things right.

Alas, you're right. The map has taken more time than planned, already  And the only one I've got working so far I still consider a rough draft. I've get the basis for a much better one in .bmp, but the map editor keeps ****ing up my imports I haven't headbutted my monitor yet, but I get the feeling I soon will be. Fortunately, I have been working on some other things as well, like dialogs for the new NPCs, other new NPCs, factions, and changing the name of the money.

No need to smooth the shores, I wouldn't suggest you use ctrl-s either. Hand it to me if you want after its done, I'll smooth them manually.

That's the thorny bit, because what I ask from you here will influence what I will have to ask from future modelers. Put simply, I'd like to have gauntlets that merge into the vambraces more smoothly than in native for all my armours; that means I need to either ask for all armours to exclude vambraces and leave cloth or chain on the forearms, with the vambraces being part of the gauntlets; the problem is that, since I can't ask for entire arm-guard sets, vambraces being part of gauntlets might then have trouble fitting with the elbow-guard (couter). So I'm currently thinking it would be best for the vambracesto be part of the body armour, in which case I'll just have to ask any people who contribute gauntlet models to be extra careful. If and when they contribute these models, of course.

All in all, that means it would be best if the forearms had the vambraces on them; your latest version looks like it has them, but perhaps they should be a little thinner (about as thick as you made the spaulders and the couter).

Well I don't wanna be a spoiler, but from what I've seen in my thread and other mods, I'll probably be doing all your armors. 

The vambraces need to be rigged, by the way, so they can't be an obj file along with the gauntlets, or they would move along with the hands. I haven't tried it, but I believe the inverse can be done, attaching the gauntlets to the forearm and having it all as a single mesh and rigging it there as an smd. However the player would be able to fit another gauntlet over the original ingame. Its your call.

If the vambrace is kept as it is, though, then you're right, people contributing gauntlets gotta have an eagle eye there.

EDIT: If any armor modeller do show up though, its all a matter of you sending me the mesh so I can smooth the forearms and rig them again.

 

[Cirdan]

I am getting old and blind indeed. I mistook the shadow on the gorgering for an actual opening. I'll fix that, nevermind.

You won't be releasing the mod anytime soon so we've got plenty of time to get things right.

Alas, you're right. The map has taken more time than planned, already  And the only one I've got working so far I still consider a rough draft. I've get the basis for a much better one in .bmp, but the map editor keeps ****ing up my imports I haven't headbutted my monitor yet, but I get the feeling I soon will be. Fortunately, I have been working on some other things as well, like dialogs for the new NPCs, other new NPCs, factions, and changing the name of the money.

No need to smooth the shores, I wouldn't suggest you use ctrl-s either. Hand it to me if you want after its done, I'll smooth them manually.

If only that was the problem.... here is an example of what's going wrong (with a rough draft, actually):

The map is rotated to one side, and some land is inserted in the West seemingly without reason. I'm other doing something wrong, or something's buggy.

Well I don't wanna be a spoiler, but from what I've seen in my thread and other mods, I'll probably be doing all your armors. 

The vambraces need to be rigged, by the way, so they can't be an obj file along with the gauntlets, or they would move along with the hands. I haven't tried it, but I believe the inverse can be done, attaching the gauntlets to the forearm and having it all as a single mesh and rigging it there as an smd. However the player would be able to fit another gauntlet over the original ingame. Its your call.

If the vambrace is kept as it is, though, then you're right, people contributing gauntlets gotta have an eagle eye there.

EDIT: If any armor modeller do show up though, its all a matter of you sending me the mesh so I can smooth the forearms and rig them again.

Don't speak of ill-luck, my superstitions say that ignorance is bliss and mentioning bad things make them certain to occur!
For the time being, though, keep the vambrace, since it's likely to cause the least trouble (especially since gauntlets can't have any animations beyond hands--or have I misunderstood you?).


EDIT: I think it may the map's dimensions cuaisng it to get all skewed. Will try using even dimensions and screen resoluions.