France, 1420 mod--suggestion/discussion

[Cirdan]

France, the beginning of the year 1420, Christian Era. With the always-convenient benefit of hindsight, we can see that the war was already lost for England; Henry V's actions at Harfleur, Cherbourg or Caen had already earned him a reputation for cruelty, but the siege of Rouen sealed hatred for the English into France's collective consciousness. Whatever jurists had to say about the matter, previously a Lancaster might have had a chance at seizing the Valois' crown; but after Rouen, an Englishman could never sit on the French throne. Henry V had intended to make yet another example of how he treated cities that resisted him, in order to intimidate the others into swift surrender; but unwittingly he had dragged ethnicity and culture into the heart of the conflict. Given the disparity in manpower and economic development between the two nations, one could say the English claim on France's throne died along with thousands of women, children and old folks before the English circumvallation in January 1419.

Of course, this is only apparent through hindsight. Henry V simply did not understand the long-term consequences of his actions; he was probably unable to comprehend the hatred he was sowing with his callousness outside of Rouen, or his quasi-colonial policy at Caen. At the time, what was apparent was that, while unable to conquer a united France, he had her before him divided, exhausted by civil war and seemingly ripe for conquest. After Azincourt he had been able to take city after city, not because they opened their gates to him--indeed, he usually faced an energetic and determined resistance--but because they could not expect any relief. Rouen was a case in point; the garrison, loyal to the Burgundian government which had just captured Paris, hoped for Jean Sans Peur to come attack the English, effectively catching Henry V between the hammer and the anvil.

However, such an operation would suppose that the other French faction, the Armagnacs, did not take advantage of this to launch an offensive against the Duke of Burgundy. Some negociation was even attempted to this effect; but it went nowhere. The Burgundian government, legitimated by the Queen, hesistated between negociating a peace with the English, and then crushing the Armagnacs with English help, or making a truce with the Armagnac government (legitimated by the Dauphin, or crown prince) and then crushing the English with Armagnac help. In the end, they did neither: Rouen fell while they failed to reach an agreement with the Armagnacs, they then failed to make peace with the English, and returned to negociating an alliance against the English with the Dauphin, negociations which dragged out until, amidst a heated debate on the bridge at Montereau, swords were drawn and Jean Sans Peur killed; tradition has it he died by the hand of Tanguy du Chatel, the Armagnac leader. This happened on the 10th of September, 1419. At the Duke's funeral, the Inquisitor of Rheims exhorted Philip, the new Duke, to make peace with the Armagnacs and trust to royal justic to avenge his father's murder; but Philip publicly retorted he would do no such thing.

Thus, at the start of 1420, things could not look better for the Lancastrian claim: the Valois king was insane, France had two rival regents--the Queen at Troyes and the Dauphin at Bourges, each backed by about half of the country--and Paris had been bled white by a decade of civil war during which she had changed hands three times, always with much bloodshed.

This would make a perfect setting for a M&B mod; the years between the fall of Rouen and Jeanne d'Arc's counter-offensive on the Loire saw mainly sieges, raids and low-level skirmishing, which M&B can represent well. It's also, in case you hadn't realised it yet, a period which I find highly interesting. I'd certainly be willing to implicate myself into such a project, and I can do some of the necessary scripting, engage in historical research, prepare the items/troops files, design NPCs and quests, and possibly work on the map. But, I cannot do justice to such a mod alone, and I can't make any models, textures, or scenes whatsoever, so I will definately need help in order to make this happen. Thus, I ask you, the TaleWorlds community, if you think it's worthwhile, and if so, to contribute any assistance you can.

EDIT: MODELERS AND TEXTURERS BADLY NEEDED. Reference pictures on second page.

 

[messenger]

Can't you do stuff like that on the Hundred Years War mod?

 

[Cirdan]

Not really. It's set in a totally different phase of the Hundred Years' War, when France had no civil war and was going about the reconquest of the South-West ceded to the English at Brétigny. Much less interesting and more one-sided, IMO. In 1420 you have three major factions (Armagnacs, Bourguignons, English) fighting for control of France, 'minor factions' capable of leaning one way or the other (such as Brittany) and general chaos.

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

In 1420 you have three major factions (Armagnacs, Bourguignons, English) fighting for control of France, 'minor factions' capable of leaning one way or the other (such as Brittany) and general chaos.

lovely project . the HYW mod should do something like that too, with 2 breton factions (one pro English, one pro french) locked in a civil war, and a Navarese faction... And maybe Paris in the hands of Etienne Marcel.
actually,ideally tehre should be a dual HYW mod : 1357 and 1420 (or another post agincourt/pre orleans date). Currently, the HWY mod as some stuff (mostly characters, like Tanneguy Du Chasterl, or Arthur de Richemont, or Xaintrailles ) who belong to a 1420 date. And lots of anacrhonistic equipment
Wish you the best for this project...

 

[-TheChevalier-]

It seems to be a really good idea, unfortunately I don't have any skill in modding.

 

[morgoth2005]

It seems to be a really good idea, unfortunately I do have minimal skill in modding.

but not much. I got some coding knowledge but useless with anything complex.

 

[Amigo]

nothing hard - take HYW with gandalfs permission, retexture some armors (half plate, quarter plate) and add some handgunns and you get french 1420 mod. I doubt theres much room for another indepent mod from similiar times, considering HYW quality 

If you really get to it, i can offer you some things, because i am making hussite wars mod (~1420-1430)

 

[kurjajuur]

Much less interesting and more one-sided, IMO. In 1420 you have three major factions (Armagnacs, Bourguignons, English) fighting for control of France, 'minor factions' capable of leaning one way or the other (such as Brittany) and general chaos.

Ummm.... why do you want to make about a less interesting part of the Hundred Years mod, if you know its less interesting.

 

[Amigo]

its equal interesting, firearms and infatry combat x cavalry in HYW. generally i like either very early time mods (10th ct.) or very late, renesaince/late middle ages, the others are usualy very similiar to vanilla, just with new stuff.

and he probably wanted different meaning, just badly expressed. ( )

 

[Cirdan]

kurjajuur: I was talking about the HYW mod's timeframe when I said less interesting.

Amigo: no, a simple makeover of the HYWM would not suffice. They've got some nice items, but--as Sidus Preclarum said--the characters aren't all historical, the map is far from perfect, and to put things plainly, it's M&B with French and English rather than Swadians and Vaegirs. Now, I realise the mod's still under development, and that Llew2 is still working to improve accuracy, and I don't intend any offence to him or to Gandalf (after all, it's fun enough).

For those who have some trouble seeing the difference between the 1370s and the 1420s, the 1370s can be resumed in a very, very, very, schematical way as follows:

Charles V: "Lads, do you want them English squatting on our lands?"
French Host: "NO!!!!"
Du Guesclin: "Then what are you going to do about it, lads?"
French Host:"KICK SOME ENGLISH ARSE!!!!"
*they then proceed to kick some English arse*

Now, the English didn't just sit around waiting for their arse to be kicked, but nevertheless, that what happened to them: when Charles V takes the crown, the English hold about one-third of France, their candidate is set to become Duke of Brittany, and Britannia rules the waves; when Charles V dies, they only hold a handful of strongholds along the coast, the Duke of Brittany is returning to France, the English navy is at the bottom of the sea and the French are raiding Southern England in preparation for an invasion. The question was no longer whether the House of Plantagenet could seize the French crown or even hold on to Guyenne, but whether the Valois could pull off a new Hastings. When Charles V snuffed it, things changed--his heir was a minor and the government fell into the hands of the late king's brothers, powerful territorial lords in their own right, who dismissed the officials of the previous government--some of these were even arrested and imprisoned--and brought about a major shift in politics. There were no overt factions in France at this time, but in fine, the power had slipped from the hands of centralists (who would later be known as Orleanists and then Armagnacs) into those of conservatives opposed to further centralisation (who later become the Burgundian party). Like all conservatives, the "Uncles' government" was opposed to heavy expenses such as would be generated by prosecuting the war with England further, and accordingly peace was reached on terms that would have seen unhopped-for by the English while Charles V still lived; that is to say, the French would keep their conquests and the Plantagenets what they still held.

Thirty years later, and France's factional conflict has degenerated into open civil war while King Charles VI has descended into madness, allowing Henry V to invade and make massive territorial gains while rival French governments fight each other. It's not even the same war, although they're grouped together for convenience's sake.

 

[Amigo]

ok, convinced me. But i advice you to start learning modeling&texturing and so on, because most peaple with modding skills already has their own projects. Modeling and mapping is really easy to learn and perhaps ask someone for texturing (in what i really sux).
Dukes and mercenaries have really nice sallets, craftsmod with firearms (both are opensource), and other things are up to you. gl

 

[Llew2]

Amigo: no, a simple makeover of the HYWM would not suffice. They've got some nice items, but--as Sidus Preclarum said--the characters aren't all historical, the map is far from perfect, and to put things plainly, it's M&B with French and English rather than Swadians and Vaegirs. Now, I realise the mod's still under development, and that Llew2 is still working to improve accuracy, and I don't intend any offence to him or to Gandalf (after all, it's fun enough).

About the characters: I basically just asked people for names, they spat some out, and I stuck 'em in the mod. As for accuracy...Well, it is fun to play right now. Gandalf really had something going: People enjoy the HYW mod. In my mind, that is what really counts. Accuracy is all fine and dandy, but I think that in this case it could only detract from what is already there. I mean really, over 10,000 downloads in two weeks? That more than anything says loads about where we're at with the pure enjoyability of this thing.


That said, I like this idea you've got, and I think there is great potential. However, I think you will have to take the brunt of the work and get something to show for it if you want other people to start pitching in. Re-texturing armors is wicked easy, and there are tons of item packs that you could use bits and pieces of. I believe you could get away with not modeling a single thing.

 

[Cirdan]

No, texturing isn't easy. If you really want to, you could find my previous efforts on these fora...

The nearest I can get to anything graphical would be to painstakingly create a map almost pixel by pixel and then position towns, castles and villages on it. There certainly are alot of item packs out there (even if many aren't appropriate) and I'm confident I can find most of the needed offensive weaponry in them (right now, all I can think of that isn't covered already would be a heavy windlass-loaded arbalest, maybe scabbards for Raptor's swords, and a proper great lance--although those from HYW, maybe with rescaling, would do, who made them so I can ask permission?) but armour and shields is a different picture. I'd certainly need at least a pavise and more forms of early plate, as well as armoried surcoats. I'd love to use some of the helmets from HYW, not sure who made them (from the credits I take it you weren't the modeller?). Historical coats of arms would also be a big plus, but again, I can't put them into M&B useable form even if I can find pictures of them. And of course sometime the mod would need new scenes, possibly new models of walls/buildings/whatever, and again, i simply cannot do that (not even arrange scenes).

As I've already stated, what I can do is scripting. I'm willing to start on it and do the brunt of the work in that domain (though honestly, any help would be appreciated), but there's zero chance of my completing the project alone. Hence why I'm fishing for interest.

 

[Lynores]

Very nice setting. Being the accuracy junkie that you are, I'm sure this will be big. I would suggest that you post some reference material here from time to time, some people might help. If you have any particular building, equipment or texture that might need a bit more attention to accuracy, feel free to send it my way. I'm short on free time but I can manage to spare some for a mate every now and then.

 

[Llew2]

You'll find the crossbows you're after in Craftmod.

As for HYW items, some of the helmets (I believe) are from mods like Luigi's old Dukes mod, but I really don't think Gandalf wants the mod-specific items used by the public. You would have to ask him though.

 

[Lion]

You'll find the crossbows you're after in Craftmod.

As for HYW items, some of the helmets (I believe) are from mods like Luigi's old Dukes mod, but I really don't think Gandalf wants the mod-specific items used by the public. You would have to ask him though.

There are the new items from the D&K for 0.903 : helmets (pigface, open pigface, sallet...), weapons, shield

- Lion -

 

[Cirdan]

Lion: Great! I can't believe I missed the Beta release of the new D&M mod! And Luigi deserves a huge thumbs-up for his attitude.

Llew2: IIRC Craftmod's arbalest model isn't 'complete' (that is to say, I remember no string and generally pre-.808 in look), but it could at least be a stopgap. And maybe they'll update it in their next release (or maybe they have and I'm talking out of my rear end?). Saying this makes me feel like a pompous imbecile, though. Could you give me a quick summary of what Gandalf did and what was borroyed (and from where) in HYW? Specifically, regarding the lances and the shiny-textured helmets.

Lynores: Thank you. It is indeed the least I can do to post reference material if I hope to get people to model and/or texture for me. I'll try not to ask anything from you, though, since you already have a colossal project to do on your own.

 

[Llew2]

Considering that I only took up the porting three weeks ago, I can't.

The Credits for the mod are here, but it doesn't say what is from whom.

Models: helmets by Raz and Luigi, weapons by RR_Raptor65 and Raz, map icons by Thorgrim.
Textures: -GandalfTheGrey, Raz, Ryuta, Thorgrim, Cataphract, RR_Raptor65 and DaBlade.
Mod included: Arena Expansion v1.6 by Janus, DaBlade and Taurandhir.
Special thanks to Janus for his Installer Script and his inestimable help, to Thorgrim for the priceless BRFEdit, to Effidian for his Unofficial Editor, to Scion for his pieces of advice for texturing, to the modding community and its tutorials, and of course to Ipek & Armagan for creating this awesome game and kindly releasing the Module System.

 

[Cirdan]

Llew2: saw the credits, but as you've mentioned, they are vague. Will get into contact with Gandalf, Raz and others, however.

I've taken some reference pictures from Viollet-le-Duc. It's 19th-century scholarship and he's mainly basing himself on depictions in period manuscripts (with all the strengths and weaknesses of such a method of historical study), but some of his drawings are also based on museum pieces.  If you have a well-founded objections to the accuracy of some of these pics, feel free to post. If anyone could make models based off some or all of the following, I'd be much obliged.

First, an arbalest. This illustration was based off a real weapon conserved in Paris' Artillery Museum, so its accuracy ought to be undeniable. The bow is made of iron; the overall weapon length is 70-75cm. A crossbow like this one was probably used when Jeanne D'Arc got a bolt shot through her leg under the walls of Paris. To make a comparison with the longbow, at the Tourelles when she was shot at close range by an archer and not even fully armoured (having only on a jazerant, or shirt of chains), she suffered only a very superficial wound, which did not prevent her from returning to the fray. Of course, its great power was counterbalanced by an extremely long reload time.

Second, a pavise shield, seen from the front, back, and top-down. A note though: as tempting as it might be to implement in M&B, the shield was not held by passing the arm through the loops in the central ridge (according to V-l-D they're there so a stake can hold the shield up, leaving the user's arms free).

Thirdly, a type of early plate armour. I'm not 100% sure of what parts of the body it's legit for a M&B model to cover, but ideally, the evolved lamellar corselet (coming down over the hips) and chain mail neck-guard should be one body armour mesh (with chainmail sleeves), with separate 'gloves' and 'boots' for the arms and legs (obviously, the arm-guard mesh will need to cover the body armour mesh's default sleeves without clipping, please). According to V-l-D this was a common early 15th century armour, probably the most common at least until Azincourt.

Number Four: an unfortunately less realistically styled representation of one of the first true plate harnesses, such as would have first appeared in battle at the time of Azincourt. It's a copy of a tombstone from 1419; note that the plate is still being worn over chainmail.

Number Five: a suit of full plate from the 1420s. Note the large pauldrons and the non-removable bevor. The armour is not decorated by ciseling; the patterns on the torso are meant to be embroidered or sewn into a close-fitting piece of cloth attached over the cuirass. This armour would seem to be particularly suitable for the time period.

Number Six: French or Milanese plate from the late 1420s or early 1430s. Underlying chain mail is visible at the otherwise-exposed articulations. The tasset seems to be brigandine. I don't need the sallet and bevor shown in A (there are already models for these I can use), but the armet shown in B and C I could use, in addition to the armour.

Number Seven: a female armour, contemporary with #6. V-l-D gives a period illustration of a fictional tale (The Trojan War) as his reference, but comes down strongly in favour of the armour being real, especially the more feminine aspects. I'm willing to give him at least the benefit of the doubt, especially since it could be of use to a female PC or a named NPC.

Number Eight: a Breton nobleman whose armour is the lovechild of plate and brigandine, with some chain mail ancestry thrown in for good measure. Will kill for this model.

Number Nine: 15th century brigandine, shown inside and out with a closeup of the rivet pattern, based on a museum piece. Default sleeves should be plain cloth and tight.

Number Ten: closeup showing a 15th century plate arm-guard.

Number Eleven: a different style of 15th century plate arm-guard, perhaps sligthly later than #10 and with more discrete spaulders and elbow-guard.

Number Twelve: kettle hat with bevor. A bit old by the 1420s, but likely still in use among the poorer combatants.

Number Thirteen: French (Milanese style) plate, more mid-15th century than 1420ish though. Not a priority for potential modelers, but, given that we're in a period of intense weapons development, it isn't so anachronistic that it shouldn't be able to serve as rare, very high-end armour.

Number Fourteen: German early Gothic armour. Same comments as for #13 apply. The armour itself was drawn by V-l-D based on a manuscript, but if Wikipedia's photos are good, is very similar to a suit kept in the Tower of London.

Number Fifteen: a 'light' suit of plate from the reign of Charles VII.

 

[Cirdan]

Some possible references for texturing a pavise:

EDIT: this is the area I intend to gother with the Mod's map, conditional on it fitting into the game engine's restrictions.