Formation system need a rework: infantry just can't fight properly

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sermen

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First there is no stamina implemented so everyone is fighting like a mad without tiring.
Second thing is warriors don't care about savety, they always attack and rarely defend.
That's why cavalry fights are already interesting and satisfying but infantry combat is a mad rush and after a minute it's over, one side or another.

But it's EA, i think they will be fine tuning combat.
 

ShakenSpeare

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I'm saying that its doing exactly what its intended to do. Be a meat shield.
Shield wall on a plain is suicide against cavalry. The only effective mesure against cavalry is a 6+ man deep line and expect heavy casualties as that is exactly how it should be.
Effective measure like this?
250 spearmen in a square and cavalry simply swim through all of it, and everyone skitters and morphs around.
 

Yormund

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Increase armor efficiency certainly slows down combat pace a bit ( not by much tho).

Cavalry is good, but their kill-efficiency isn’t comparable with their price (highest wage, need horse/warhorse to upgrade). Lead a bunch of Valandian knights through enemy archer line, you would anticipate a massacre, but actually there’s only few kills upon first contact. Calvary AI is still quite dope even with minor upgrade in beta.
Awesome, gotta look it up. With the cav charging I certainly agree with your point on the charges being underwhelming.

I am playtesting the Health Rebalance+Armour Does Something and it does increase the battle length. It works with the Unit Stat Fix as well
 

SpectreSC

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Effective measure like this?
250 spearmen in a square and cavalry simply swim through all of it, and everyone skitters and morphs around.
Yeah this looks wonky as hell. They shouldn't be warping around or colliding in such an awkward way like they are... but I don't see the issue with Cavalry crashing through the formation here. Maybe if spear bracing was a thing that would go a long way towards helping out in this particular scenario, but yeah... heavy horse could definitely run through a few ranks of men before being stopped cold. But historically and practically they were more often used to charge down fleeing enemies.

Definitely needs some improvements though!
 

SerHamlet

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Effective measure like this?
250 spearmen in a square and cavalry simply swim through all of it, and everyone skitters and morphs around.
Exactly. I can forgive the first few lines get knocked down, but further inside formation, more friction should be added to resist charge. I kind of understand why charge damage is so pathetic now: TW must have tested the same charge stats as in warband (see pureblood horse with 50-60 charge in cheat mode), and that was way too OP. Since current physics engine can’t prevent cavalry from moving freely inside formation, they had to nerf the charge damage.
 

Crowquills

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Effective measure like this?
250 spearmen in a square and cavalry simply swim through all of it, and everyone skitters and morphs around.
You never told your units to attack/charge.... what the hell do you expect. Try that again and tell them to charge 2 secs before the cavalry hits or after the cavalry hits and they are swimming inside you. Square formation sucks. I tried to make it work but it always fails incredibly compared to shield wall. Formations do need to be more dynamic when enemies close in, that's for sure!
 

Ciderglove

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You never told your units to attack/charge.... what the hell do you expect. Try that again and tell them to charge 2 secs before the cavalry hits or after the cavalry hits and they are swimming inside you. Square formation sucks. I tried to make it work but it always fails incredibly compared to shield wall. Formations do need to be more dynamic when enemies close in, that's for sure!
Your insulting tone is confusing. Why are you surprised that people expect formations to work in a logical way? Napoleonic square formations (for example) did not suddenly charge at cavalry two seconds before impact; the formation itself was effective.

I am sure that you have all kinds of clever techniques to get around problems with the mechanics and win fights, but I don't think they are very interesting. The main reason that people are making and contributing to these threads is that the game is in an early access state and so needs a lot of improvements. The problems with infantry combat will not be solved by every player around the world following your clever advice about cheesing various formations; they will be solved by the developers making fixes to fundamental mechanics.
 

ShakenSpeare

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You never told your units to attack/charge.... what the hell do you expect. Try that again and tell them to charge 2 secs before the cavalry hits or after the cavalry hits and they are swimming inside you. Square formation sucks. I tried to make it work but it always fails incredibly compared to shield wall. Formations do need to be more dynamic when enemies close in, that's for sure!
I am well aware that telling them to charge is the best way in the game to deal with this. The problem is that this is not how it should work at all. Telling them to charge at the cavalry at the last second, and having that be more effective, is poor design and unrealistic. The first few ranks of a deep, tight, square formation should get mowed down horrifically, but the cavalry should soon stop to a screeching halt. A lot of heavily armored men weighing 100kg each should not just all get waltzed through like that. Warband was clunky as hell with this kind of stuff but is still far superior and more realistic than Bannerlord is in this regard. I really hope TW fixes this and the wonky formation fighting in general because it's a huge problem.
 

GitiUsir

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This kind of good AI is really hard to code, especially when it comes to M&B: the computational efficiency matters more than other games.

That is part of the reasons why I am quite frustrated: I don’t know if there’s a way to ideally fix the problem. Hope TW can bring a miracle. :sad:
I think it would be less computational expensive if the bots had a simplified AI to fight in formations, shorter arc to watch, because flanks and rear are protected, no need to move at all, unless to close gaps, less attacks and more blocking. The AI should focus more on deploying formations. This AI level is less expensive because it only needs to check every few seconds and only for a few formations (not hundreds of bots). Moreover, there are less bots attacking at a given moment, if they are distributed among formations and only the front ranks are fighting. Whenever I see a big blob in melee I think it's a waste of computer power because you can't see anything and you can't do ****.

When you realize that a single soldier attacking a formation in melee has to face 3 different soldiers at the same time you understand why a disorganized charge against a formation should be a disaster. Think 3 spears pointed at you at the same time.
 

saucefar

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I can report that Vlandian sergeants hold up their wall nicely, i had 100 of them fully upgraded in a shield wall and no cavalry got through.

But as for the rest of the units, i agree.
 

SerHamlet

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I think it would be less computational expensive if the bots had a simplified AI to
A collective AI mind may work, but the block decision still should be made individually: noticing that shield block still have directions now. In fact, I think in VC, the shieldwall/spearwall do have a uniform AI command.
 

Crowquills

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Your insulting tone is confusing. Why are you surprised that people expect formations to work in a logical way? Napoleonic square formations (for example) did not suddenly charge at cavalry two seconds before impact; the formation itself was effective.

I am sure that you have all kinds of clever techniques to get around problems with the mechanics and win fights, but I don't think they are very interesting. The main reason that people are making and contributing to these threads is that the game is in an early access state and so needs a lot of improvements. The problems with infantry combat will not be solved by every player around the world following your clever advice about cheesing various formations; they will be solved by the developers making fixes to fundamental mechanics.
read my previous posts
 

Crowquills

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I am well aware that telling them to charge is the best way in the game to deal with this. The problem is that this is not how it should work at all. Telling them to charge at the cavalry at the last second, and having that be more effective, is poor design and unrealistic. The first few ranks of a deep, tight, square formation should get mowed down horrifically, but the cavalry should soon stop to a screeching halt. A lot of heavily armored men weighing 100kg each should not just all get waltzed through like that. Warband was clunky as hell with this kind of stuff but is still far superior and more realistic than Bannerlord is in this regard. I really hope TW fixes this and the wonky formation fighting in general because it's a huge problem.
You can delegate to sergeants if you dont want to control them
 

ginto

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Me: Riding to spearman on my armored warmount.
Spearman: Hides spear, takes short sword...
 

Bannerman Man

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You can delegate to sergeants if you dont want to control them
The AI sergeants can't deal with this either.

Do a quick test. Go into custom battle, choose a flat open map (plains O works well), do 150 vs 150, Empire vs Empire, 100% cavalry for your side and 100% infantry for the enemy and start. Once in battle press F1 + F3 to have your cavalry charge and just sit back and watch. You'll likely win without losing a single unit, a handful at most.

Now back out and reverse the roles. Take 100% infantry and give the enemy 100% cavalry. Once in battle press F6 to delegate command. Your units will charge out, so follow them from behind at a distance or else you will kite the initial cav charge to your position, but don't otherwise interfere. You likely will lose without getting a single kill. The spearman AI simply can't handle the current situation.