Formation Fighting Guide + Hastings Syndrome - Updated 13-02-10 / 1:10

[Imnotwhatiam]

Here's a little example of what i told you: the shield wall.

Spoiler

You can see also a good example of war cry on the bottom left side.

I'm sorry I don't have a picture of that shield wall inside the arch-way on ruins map, but I can assure tha was something like the movie 300, very impressive.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

The Einherjar/Shieldings are fans of the shield wall as the picture shows. ^^

 

[L-J-F]

Glad to see there's so much interest in this, I thought there might

Excellent post Reapy, you pretty much hit it on the head from where I stand.

I would really like to organize some kind of battle or even TDM match and just try out the formation in the "ideal" setting, that is, a formation of soldiers fighting head on with a mob, just to see if it is or isn't effective. There isn't really much use of practicing or drilling unless that is effective, so far the only formation I've actually been able to test properly (without it breaking up) is the "fighting an individual" one, and as others here attest, it is extremely effective, so I'm pretty sure that a large-scale formation would work well also. - Edit: already suggested by Ursca

Reapy your idea of smaller more mobile formations sounds excellent as they could easily maneuver and engage small knots of enemies who would otherwise have enveloped the major group. It's just guesswork here but I think if the three (probably the ideal number) were able to work together when needed and form a large formation for when their foe was not spread out, it would enable them to more effectively deal with multiple situations. Furthermore, they'd likely be able to deal with Crypto's situation with satisfactory results, splitting off one or more of the groups to deal with such problems while always keeping the groups in a position to reform or be able to support each other.

So far the only real benefit I've seen of formations [apart from the "fighting an individual" encounters] is that it holds people together and stops them running off on their own, as a result, the group was very effective. However, this is not formation fighting nor had anything to do with it, this was mob fighting where everyone was present to fight a smaller number of the opposing team.

I think testing the effectiveness of "large" [8 a side or so] formations against one another in "lab" conditions would be the best course of action, that way we can get a base result and know how other tactics are working by comparing them to the "ideal". A few tests with different techniques and weapons would be great:

* Rigid tight formation (staying in a line while fighting and not breaking up).
* Loose formation (manouvering while staying in rough formation, as mentioned before).
* Marin's formations

And with different weapon loadouts such as sword/board, spear/board, mace/board, spear, pike, two hander.

From what I've seen when trying to organize formations, the biggest problem is Hastings Syndrome, people rush to meet the enemy, it's a reflex. Very much like a rout, once one goes they all start to follow. I think the biggest thing to remember about formation fighting is that it's a single unit. You're part of a machine. Think about this, what would happen if your legs and arms all tried to "run" at the same time? Without working as a cohesive whole your body would lie on the ground in convulsions, the same is true of formation fighting.

* The PDF is the same as the OP, but with a purdy background image And yarg, those be my sketches.

 

[SCGavin]

This looks really promising. I think we should try these formations out in battle, see which formation fit best to different factions, terrains, leaders, which formation is a good counter-formation to another formation and so forth. If we chose a weekend, I could spend some time trying these and if we reserved a server and password-protected it, all those interested could test in peace.

Also it would be interesting to see how ranged units and cavalry could aid or disturb such formations, how formations can be switched fast if the used formation looses it's protective value (e.g. if you use a formation that's good against archery but bad against cavalry and are suddenly charged by cavalry - how can you effectively switch to a more useful formation in time?).

 

[L-J-F]

This looks really promising. I think we should try these formations out in battle, see which formation fit best to different factions, terrains, leaders, which formation is a good counter-formation to another formation and so forth. If we chose a weekend, I could spend some time trying these and if we reserved a server and password-protected it, all those interested could test in peace.

Also it would be interesting to see how ranged units and cavalry could aid or disturb such formations, how formations can be switched fast if the used formation looses it's protective value (e.g. if you use a formation that's good against archery but bad against cavalry and are suddenly charged by cavalry - how can you effectively switch to a more useful formation in time?).

Sounds awesome mate! I'd be up for that event, I'd bring along a hefty ping more likely than not, but definitely give it a shot. Would be great to test out the formations with some people.

 

[Imnotwhatiam]

I was thinking about roman legionaries and greek hoplites.

They used to fight in very tight formations with big shields and short swords (Romans) or spears (Greeks).

Theire effectiveness lay in the capability to defend with the shield and, in the meantime, stay ready to stab the enemy in front.

If you use a shield now you have to hold up your shield, take the hit, lower the shield, prepare the strike and hit.

I think it should be great, in general but especially for formation combat, being able to do a fast stab with short swords or spears while you're holding a shield.

This should work as follows: while youre holding the right mouse button to defend you push the left mouse button and your soldier strike a very fast "lunge".

 

[SanDiego]

Nicely put together, but I must point to a combat system neglected by this guide - dynamic formations a.k.a. group fighting. Sometimes you need firm, static formation (when defending a chokepoint for example), but it's hard to move in formation like this. What I'm going to explain now is a little difficult to train, making it more suitable for organised groups.

A dynamic formation is something that involves many groups often fighting separatedly. I'll use an example of formation Bohemian Guard trained against turtles/spammers before implementation of kick, which basically rendered it obsolete: upon encounter with spammers, we'd split into groups of two or three, one group per spammer. Then we'd engage him one by one, attacking and immediately stepping back, from different angles. It worked surprisingly good at trainings; the tactic against turtles was the same, only using large weapons to smash shields.

Personally, I think that dynamic formations are somewhat more effective in Warband as ingame you can't reproduce all the advantages of firm formation (like impaling everyone closer than 3 m on your pikes).

 

[switchfoot]

Really nice guide, good job man, can't wait to try them (if there will be someone who would wish to try them during battle).

 

[okiN]

This looks really promising. I think we should try these formations out in battle, see which formation fit best to different factions, terrains, leaders, which formation is a good counter-formation to another formation and so forth. If we chose a weekend, I could spend some time trying these and if we reserved a server and password-protected it, all those interested could test in peace.

Also it would be interesting to see how ranged units and cavalry could aid or disturb such formations, how formations can be switched fast if the used formation looses it's protective value (e.g. if you use a formation that's good against archery but bad against cavalry and are suddenly charged by cavalry - how can you effectively switch to a more useful formation in time?).

Actually, I had a very similar idea. I was going to contact some of the other major clans and try to organize a group session for formation testing. Something sort of like the Sunday battles of yore, except more organized: only accepting people we can trust to act with some discipline and cooperate for the goal of actively investigating and training formation gameplay, rather than just hacking away in semi-coordinated clumps. Just to test different approaches and try to definitively determine how viable this type of play is.

 

[Arcas Nebun]

So what are you waiting for, oKin? 

 

[L-J-F]

That would be awesome. It'd be interesting to test out how formations of different sizes work too. I think only accepting those who won't just stir up trouble is probably a good idea too

 

[SCGavin]

That would be awesome. It'd be interesting to test out how formations of different sizes work too. I think only accepting those who won't just stir up trouble is probably a good idea too

We could use some troublemakers though, seeing that in a real match, probably even in a clan match, there will most likely be some troublemakers in one or both teams. I think it should be trained how those can be integrated, countered, fought with and against, while using formations.

 

[SanDiego]

So, Bohemian Guard tested some formations (namely shield wall and ring) and here are some comments:

First and largest problem is Hastings Syndrome and general indiscipline, once formation is broken individuals become much easier prey and soft core of formation (unprotected marksmen) are exposed. There is no known solution to this problem save shouting at your subordinates till they get it

Second unpleasant issue is close-quarter combat. Due to doctorine of long polearms + shield and heavy short weapon we experienced several (well, more than several actually) cases of line reducing itself by 25-50% due to FF. Solution is simple, using stabs and overhead swings only. Remember, if you kill your teammate you're just doing your opponent's job.

Last but not least, when ring formation is too strong the contents (i. e. marksmen) is in difficult position. Let me post a picture:

Spoiler

See? It's quite difficult to shoot the oncoming cavalry when most of your field of sight is covered in your teammates (note - first person really does help here). Solution is to make a tad more loose ring, so marksmen can at least sidestep.

That's for now, we plan to test moving in formations next.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Why don't you guys test formations with melee ff off?  After all as you say the chaos is often too much for the formation to stay together.  Melee ff is just one more thing that makes it difficult.  Its why I argued for stances.  With a conservative stance that used a more diagonal left-right swing.  Currently your best attacks are useless in groups.  Using stabs and overheads sounds nice but both of those are much easier to dodge and slower.  And those lone berserkers who rush the formation will be using the insta-turn swings.  With the ff off at least you won't be as restricted in the attacks you can use in formation.  I'd love to see actual formation in Warband.  It would be pretty cool to see.  And reapy's idea of splitting up your forces into three man squads is excellent.  Maybe Squads with two infantry and one archer would work well.  Three man Crossbowman squads would be cool too.

 

[Mabons]

Excellent. Excellent read.

I've had plenty of formation fights, but most of them break up anyways. My favourite is when we formed a line of archers, and just managed to disperse a cavalry charge at us. We were almost in volleys too.

 

[Hethwill]

Sticky or die
More people need to "know" about this kinda stuff.
It will make the Warband community a much more enjoyable place.
Nothing is more scary or exciting than organized Khergit 

Have to start the real work on Khanate stuff. Thanks for the Thread. Good article.

 

[Tagma]

Ahh formations, the holy grail of warband. I hope this thread gets some serious attention!
I think infantry formations are most likely to come about as a result of cavalry or archer formations becoming commonplace. Given how scattered infantry generally are, I'd love to see cavalry working together in groups of 2 or 3, perhaps a "line astern" formation where the first horseman lures the target into a hopeless stab and the second and third men attack while the target is flailing. If this proved effective infantry would soon band together during war (perhaps into some kind of war-band  ) for protetction.

 

[WhichDoctor]

I relly like this idea, I was just thinking if it became popular it mite be nice to set up a formation server. Like the duel servers, maybe with its own teamspeek or ventrilo channel or something. and anyone who doesn't join TS and or just dicks around could be kicked. Not sure if there is enough interest atm but something to keep in mind ay?

 

[SCGavin]

I relly like this idea, I was just thinking if it became popular it mite be nice to set up a formation server. Like the duel servers, maybe with its own teamspeek or ventrilo channel or something. and anyone who doesn't join TS and or just dicks around could be kicked. Not sure if there is enough interest atm but something to keep in mind ay?

Sounds good! If someone had a free server, he could maybe give it a try and revert the server to it's earlier setup if the formation idea fails?

 

[Hethwill]

So Sunday Battle Formations will be back !?!?!?