footsteps

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Susmusadam

Recruit
Even if 500 soldiers are marching at the same time in the war, the footstep sounds cannot putting me into the atmosphere.
The war atmosphere can be better if the regular troop march and the loud footsteps are added to the game.
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
That is something that always weirds me out too. You can hear a group of 30 horsemen approaching, but not the 300 footmen. Somehow, all those warriors walk like it’s a ballet.

There should be some sort of amplification of the sound, turning it into a rumble.

For immersion sake, some factions could even have a more coordinated rumble (empire, vlandia and maybe aserai)
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
We have already discussed this previously, and I also agree, but I would like to clarify. Bearing in mind that the current work has practically been carried out by a One Man Army, the result is very worthy. However, volume is needed; I'm not talking about the decibel level/acoustic power of each sound, but rather about its scalar magnitude.
I would like the battle environment to be scalable, I mean, a skirmish of 20 agents has the right sound density in Bannerlord but when we increase it to hundreds of agents in screen... that sound density is in the middle plane (hundreds of agents running doesn't reflect that sound magnitude, just like hundreds of horses charging or hundreds of agents fighting). In this section of the game I would like an ambient sound line of the scale that we find for example in total war titles where in my opinion there is a pretty good combination of ambient sound and music for gameplay.

Random video

A big battle, it's mayhem... that mayhem should be reflected in the ambient sound.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
A big battle, it's mayhem... that mayhem should be reflected in the ambient sound.
I don't know how internally Total War works under the hood but from what I have played and seen, I can say that they are not reflecting 1-1 sound of the battlefield - on purpose.
Currently, in Bannerlord each agent/soldier is broadcasting a sound event in 3D. Whether it's footsteps, hit, yell it's always like that. And this is a problem. Because when you have 1k agents on the battlefield sending events to your soundbus, it's creating issues for your soundplayer while merging and reflecting all of them. This is exactly the reason why we have this weird "sound channel" thingy in Performance options.

I think Total War is doing something similar to this,
- Based on unit count on the map, picking and perhaps merging sounds beforhand
- Based on the camera distance it's adjusting the sound intensity and playing that sound.
- Picking action cues, such as horseman dying or shield hits and emitting sound from that action while merged clash ambience is still playing
And that's why, for example, in the video, you put, at 02:08 to 02:12 you are not feeling any sound difference even though the location is completely different and the "actions" should be different as well. But it's simply continuing the same ambience because it's still the clash ambience between same units and same formations "horseman vs infantry". This gives a nice fake feeling of war ambience and that's the reason we like it ( I like it too btw even though I kinda ruined the magic right now I guess :smile: )

Doing this on Bannerlord ain't easy - since each sound is 3D and you are actually a single man in that battle and you need that 3D knowledge to know if someone is running at you. This still can be tackled by removing distant sounds and replacing them with pre-assembled ambience sound. This isn't easy as I said but it will 100% increase the performance because the current approach is just sucking CPU. And it will definitely give a better sense of war and mayhem feeling to players.

Actually, I have an idea to try out but I hate Modding Tools and it appears to be the only way to add sounds right now so if you want to try something DM me Terco, we can discuss this :razz:
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I don't know how internally Total War works under the hood but from what I have played and seen, I can say that they are not reflecting 1-1 sound of the battlefield - on purpose.
Currently, in Bannerlord each agent/soldier is broadcasting a sound event in 3D. Whether it's footsteps, hit, yell it's always like that. And this is a problem. Because when you have 1k agents on the battlefield sending events to your soundbus, it's creating issues for your soundplayer while merging and reflecting all of them. This is exactly the reason why we have this weird "sound channel" thingy in Performance options.

I think Total War is doing something similar to this,
- Based on unit count on the map, picking and perhaps merging sounds beforhand
- Based on the camera distance it's adjusting the sound intensity and playing that sound.
- Picking action cues, such as horseman dying or shield hits and emitting sound from that action while merged clash ambience is still playing
And that's why, for example, in the video, you put, at 02:08 to 02:12 you are not feeling any sound difference even though the location is completely different and the "actions" should be different as well. But it's simply continuing the same ambience because it's still the clash ambience between same units and same formations "horseman vs infantry". This gives a nice fake feeling of war ambience and that's the reason we like it ( I like it too btw even though I kinda ruined the magic right now I guess :smile: )

Doing this on Bannerlord ain't easy - since each sound is 3D and you are actually a single man in that battle and you need that 3D knowledge to know if someone is running at you. This still can be tackled by removing distant sounds and replacing them with pre-assembled ambience sound. This isn't easy as I said but it will 100% increase the performance because the current approach is just sucking CPU. And it will definitely give a better sense of war and mayhem feeling to players.

Actually, I have an idea to try out but I hate Modding Tools and it appears to be the only way to add sounds right now so if you want to try something DM me Terco, we can discuss this :razz:
Of course, I don't disagree with you and certainly total war does simulate/cheats that density, however in my ear it does so with a greater sensitivity to fool it into believing that what I hear equates to what is happening.

But yes, basically a line of sound that leans more towards what can be experienced in total war than in the M&B franchise. And I repeat, I don't want to detract from Mr. Orcun's work (our audio One Man Army) but maybe he could give a final touch to this section of the game. On the other hand, I don't know on a technical level if this implementation could cause a performance problem.

I have knowledge about music software (guitarist back in my early years) and that sort of stuff; but unfortunately I don't have the technical skills to be proficient in modding sound effects in games 😌 .
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
On the other hand, I don't know on a technical level if this implementation could cause a performance problem.
Shouldn't it improve performance?

If each division had its own sound instead of every soldier?

Except on a certain radius around the player (say 30m).

I don't know anything about software, but surely this should make the game and player's lives easier!
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
But yes, basically a line of sound that leans more towards what can be experienced in total war than in the M&B franchise. And I repeat, I don't want to detract from Mr. Orcun's work (our audio One Man Army) but maybe he could give a final touch to this section of the game. On the other hand, I don't know on a technical level if this implementation could cause a performance problem.
As far as I know, Ugurcan is not responsible for integrating the content into the game. We can ask him but I don't know his username in here. But the issue is not that implementation, the issue is the current implementation we have. It's causing performance problems.

So I'm not entirely sure who's adding those sounds and based on how but the current implementation is pretty straightforward which is causing issues performance and ambience-wise. I'm pretty sure if Game Designers come to Ugurcan and say "Hey look, we need battle sounds based on unit count and unit type" he wouldn't be super happy but he would do it in no time. Once he is ready with the content person who's responsible for adding it can add it into the game with the logic I explained above. This, essentially, should work, since with that ambience sound, all that matters is distance and unit cluster count which can be checked easily ( since AI is already doing that ) and the sound itself will be 2D on the game level. Would that sound better? I think yes but the only way to find that out is by trying and listening. Perhaps they tried that already, I don't know - we can only ask them but I seriously have no idea who's working on that and can answer this question in the forum.

But I think they are already cutting off the sound after a certain radius since we are not hearing the enemy army marching toward us unless they are super close. So my guess would be that they have some way of "improving" performance if the entity is very far away. But that's not enough and it's also killing the overall battle feeling because there is no "replacement" for that reduction, not even a fake one.

Shouldn't it improve performance?
Yes that implementation would improve the performance by taking the load off from CPU.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
As far as I know, Ugurcan is not responsible for integrating the content into the game. We can ask him but I don't know his username in here. But the issue is not that implementation, the issue is the current implementation we have. It's causing performance problems.

So I'm not entirely sure who's adding those sounds and based on how but the current implementation is pretty straightforward which is causing issues performance and ambience-wise. I'm pretty sure if Game Designers come to Ugurcan and say "Hey look, we need battle sounds based on unit count and unit type" he wouldn't be super happy but he would do it in no time. Once he is ready with the content person who's responsible for adding it can add it into the game with the logic I explained above. This, essentially, should work, since with that ambience sound, all that matters is distance and unit cluster count which can be checked easily ( since AI is already doing that ) and the sound itself will be 2D on the game level. Would that sound better? I think yes but the only way to find that out is by trying and listening. Perhaps they tried that already, I don't know - we can only ask them but I seriously have no idea who's working on that and can answer this question in the forum.

But I think they are already cutting off the sound after a certain radius since we are not hearing the enemy army marching toward us unless they are super close. So my guess would be that they have some way of "improving" performance if the entity is very far away. But that's not enough and it's also killing the overall battle feeling because there is no "replacement" for that reduction, not even a fake one.


Yes that implementation would improve the performance by taking the load off from CPU.
Oh, I thought he took care of the task globally (audio director). The alias as I remember it is Kabraxis.


Yes that implementation would improve the performance by taking the load off from CPU.
☝️ Calabanar.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
Ah yes correct!
Well then I summon you @Kabraxis , can you take a look at what we have discussed and let us know what you think and whether it's related to you or not?
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
Hopefully you will be luckier than me when he comes to your call... :lol:
Perhaps @Dejan can get his attention about this matter. Sorry for tagging you all guys but battle atmosphere and performance is literally the core blocks of this game - even if we can make it slightly better, it helps a lot to all.
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
Thanks for the clarification!

Hopefully they implement this change, it really sounds like the best of both worlds.
 
A big battle, it's mayhem... that mayhem should be reflected in the ambient sound.
Other than foot steps, seeing these soldiers talking each other in the video is giving the soldiers more life. I would like to see that in the bannerlord as well. İncluding npc's that communicate with each other in the towns, bandits when you enter the talking screen (''I will drink from ur skull'' is more than enough for me :grin: ) even the lords can say some words releated to your relationship with them. Like if they don't like you they can say ''You again'' or if they're your friend they can say like more friendly words.
I mean I know it's not necessary feature but on the other hand it's not hard at all, so idk why they won't doing such stuff. Except the woman in the epicrotea that actually speaks.
 

Kabraxis

Lord of the Waves
Developer
NWWB
Hey there finest community of all, this is Ugurcan.

Since I first started in this company ten years ago, having more hollywood-ish ambients is one of my higher desires. But due to the reasons you've discussed above (you are mostly right :smile:, we couldn't achieved this so far.

But that's changing!

Actually, a feature branch that includes a system that I could build better soundscapes upon, as we named Battle Ambient Sound System BASS (as in fish), went to performance tests exactly this morning, after months of hard work! I'm expecting it to be give us much more flexibility there.

There will be more work on performance side, so no promises if it could ever see the sunlight, or when. But I'm hopeful :smile:

On a side note, I'm not an one-man-army anymore! @Dorn has joined me on the audio department few months ago, and I'm looking forward to hear his additions to the game! :smile:
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Thanks for bringing us this piece of information and hope you will have time to come back to us with some more detailed info when this becomes pertinent. Once again, thanks for informing the players who follow the development and for the work done regarding the game.

I warmly appreciate you (and your new co-worker) keeping in touch with us from time to time from now on :wink: .
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
Actually, a feature branch that includes a system that I could build better soundscapes upon, as we named Battle Ambient Sound System BASS (as in fish), went to performance tests exactly this morning, after months of hard work! I'm expecting it to be give us much more flexibility there.
Great news! Any chance to get a lil more information about this feature branch? I'm guessing that it's a new sound library/system integration that grants you more flexibility than PSAI - but apart from that, there is no solid example that you can share with us?
Even with a huge WIP banner on top, we would be glad to see the capabilities of that in a short clip etc.

And regarding to my question and assumptions in here,
I think Total War is doing something similar to this,
- Based on unit count on the map, picking and perhaps merging sounds beforhand
- Based on the camera distance it's adjusting the sound intensity and playing that sound.
- Picking action cues, such as horseman dying or shield hits and emitting sound from that action while merged clash ambience is still playing
And that's why, for example, in the video, you put, at 02:08 to 02:12 you are not feeling any sound difference even though the location is completely different and the "actions" should be different as well. But it's simply continuing the same ambience because it's still the clash ambience between same units and same formations "horseman vs infantry". This gives a nice fake feeling of war ambience and that's the reason we like it ( I like it too btw even though I kinda ruined the magic right now I guess :smile: )

Doing this on Bannerlord ain't easy - since each sound is 3D and you are actually a single man in that battle and you need that 3D knowledge to know if someone is running at you. This still can be tackled by removing distant sounds and replacing them with pre-assembled ambience sound. This isn't easy as I said but it will 100% increase the performance because the current approach is just sucking CPU. And it will definitely give a better sense of war and mayhem feeling to players.
.. do you think it's feasible to do implement in Bannerlord? Or is this new system somehow handles all these cases anyway so under the hood by merging sounds to create Total Warestique ambience even with entity-based 3D sounds?

And I'm glad to hear that you are no longer one-man-army! BL can double its potential with great audiowork and this requires man-power and too much effort for a single person even if that person is a M&B soundwiz :razz:
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
@Bloc I'm going to sit in the corner eating popcorn while you get info :lol: 🍿. On a more serious note, all new information is welcome and really appreciated as it is a sign of company-fan transparency.
 
Thanx for the info. İt's good to hear new sound system coming. But is there any news about the voiced dialogues or anything that speaks :grin: ? @Kabraxis Please inform us about it!
 
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