Folklore, Legend and History

[Anarion]

I agree that legends were probably born that way. It might even be simpler;" the tribe's warriors attack a hostile village and steal some cows turns" into "a hero slays the dragon in its lair and steals its treasure.

Some people like Marija Gimbutas believe that some myths and practices could go back as far as the Neolithic. That could be true in some cases. Also, there is something called comparative poetics, which is finding certain formulas that common in mythologies that are assumed related. One of these is IRC "the hero slayed the dragon".

 

[KillerMongoose]

I think it stems more from a primal fear of fire and the connection of serpents and evil. Serpents are generally aligned with Satan, so what creature could be more frightening than one who is made of the two scariest things to mankind. Fire and Satan. Stories also could've risen from men discovering prehistoric bones. Look at Tyrannosaurus Rex, huge, scaly beast with long sharp teeth and talons. Or even the Pterodactyl, wingspan can reach insane amounts. Or I guess, who knows, maybe there were once giant winged beasts breathing fire on villages and stealing women  maybe in five hundred years people will think Bears were a myth lol

 

[Anarion]

Yeah, no. Bears are going to leave fossil evidence for people to find in 500 years even if none of our records of the fabled bear survive for that long.

Dragons, not so much.

 

[Archonsod]

I think it stems more from a primal fear of fire and the connection of serpents and evil.

Serpents are only held to be evil in certain Christian traditions. They were worshipped elsewhere. And fire lost it's fear factor before hominids had evolved into humans, it's one of the key reasons there were hominids left to evolve into humans after the ice age. Most dragons also breathed poison, or simply some non-described breath which resulted in death. Fire is a relatively recent addition, certainly post medieval (possibly because giant winged serpents breathing unspecified death didn't look quite as impressive as ones breathing fire).

It's the fact snakes are one of the few creatures which do kill people that gives us dragons though. Take one snake, increase it to silly proportions and chuck in whatever abilities sounds good and you get something scary. It's the same with virtually all mythological beasts; nearly all are drawn from or composites of creatures which are dangerous to mankind. You never get towns being threatened by giant fire breathing rabbits or flying badgers.

One of these is IRC "the hero slayed the dragon".

It'd be tenuous at best. Dramatic imperative ensures the main character kills the dragon, it's why he becomes a hero. It;s more to do with entertainment at that point than anything else. Nobody would want to listen to a story about a dragon which goes nowhere.

 

[GoodSirSquire]

Interesting topic, I've just started reading a book about the Celts (conveniently named "The Celts"  , by Jean Markale) & he's got a whole chapter about their ancient myths & how a very common theme is towns submerged in water or towns being destroyed by the sea, which he believes were legends passed down after groups of Celts expanded from their original homeland (in the center of modern-day Germany near Harz) to settle along the Baltic & North Seas coast- which, because at the time (around 1200 b.c) the climate was relatively dry & warm, was a fine place to inhabit- but by the end of the Halstatt period (around 530 b.c) Western Europe became suddenly very cold & wet again , causing huge areas of the coastline being flooded. As a result those Celtic people migrated away from their old homes & brought their story of the devastating floods with them, hence the legends that arose later. He even quotes Greek writers who came into contact with these myths, including the legend that Celts used to perform a 'water ritual' to drive back the waves- apparently by gathering arms & marching against the sea  !! As quoted in the book-

"Neither do i believe, as the historian had told us, that the Cimbri [Celts] brandish their weapons at the mounting waves to drive them back, nor, as Ephorus says of the Celts or Gauls, that they train themselves to fear nothing by calmly watching the sea destroy their homes, which they later rebuild, and that the floods have claimed more victims among them than war." (Strabo, VII, 2.)

There's more but yeah, think I've prattled on enough  , just thought that was an interesting example of a historical event becoming folklore, well at least from what I've read in a chapter of this book- can't be too sure of it's accuracy, & it was written in 1976 so maybe more archaeological evidence was been discovered since then but i think the quote from Strabo is quite interesting regardless ...

 

[Anarion]

One of these is IRC "the hero slayed the dragon".

It'd be tenuous at best. Dramatic imperative ensures the main character kills the dragon, it's why he becomes a hero. It;s more to do with entertainment at that point than anything else. Nobody would want to listen to a story about a dragon which goes nowhere.

The formula is for the verse, not the whole story. And now that I found my book on the subject, the formula is actually "hero slays (with weapon) serpent. This is found apparently in the poetry of many IE cultures. Then there is the simile "like reeds" as in "swept away like reeds". These are just two formulas suggested by the book. I think it's interesting, and my theory is that young poets would be schooled in the traditional poetry so that certain clichés would remain through the ages.

Anyway, here are some dragon myths:
Fergus  mac Léti and the Muirdris
Typhoeus
Illuyanka
Python
Ahi budhnya
Aži Dahaka
Geryon

 

[KillerMongoose]

Yeah, no. Bears are going to leave fossil evidence for people to find in 500 years even if none of our records of the fabled bear survive for that long.

Dragons, not so much.

It was a joke good sir, not to be taken literally in any way.

 

[Archonsod]

I think it's interesting, and my theory is that young poets would be schooled in the traditional poetry so that certain clichés would remain through the ages.

It's essentially memetics. You get the same in any oral tradition, you have set formula for each story according to type (drama, comedy, moral play etc) and the bard simply inserts the name/place/thing in the relevant parts. Rather than memorise a few hundred or thousand individual stories you then only need to memorise seven.
Beyond aiding memory, the other useful thing about this kind of formula is it gives a basic structure for the whole story, allowing the bard to embellish or improvise upon it according to the taste of their audience without running the risk of losing track of the tale.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Celts used to perform a 'water ritual' to drive back the waves- apparently by gathering arms & marching against the sea  !!

Sounds like Caligula is leading them. Then, they can take shells and sand as spoils of war.