Folklore, Legend and History

[Urlik]

since I was quite young I have had an interest in legends, folklore and mythology in general (by the age of 12 I had read about most of the Greek Gods and Heroes as well as Beowulf and a fair bit of the Norse Mythology as well).

as I've grown older I have read more and thought about where these stories came from and what was the inspiration for them (as many others have done before me) and I was thrilled when it was discovered that by following Jason's journey with the Argonauts that it lead to the Black Sea and the coast of Georgia where fleeces were used to collect gold dust from streams and then hung on trees to dry. I know it didn't mean that all of the adventures the Argonauts had were true, but that there may well have been voyage to Georgia that was the inspiration behind it and their exploits and opponents were exaggerated.

with this, and other discoveries, in mind I have wondered about other myths and I have a hypothesis about the origin of the dragon myths in UK folklore focusing on what the stories tell us about the habits of dragons rather than their appearance.

looking at these we get a list of things dragons do.
1, they terrorise villages
2, they demand young women
3, they demand livestock
4, they hoard gold and treasure
5, they burn everything in their wake if their demands are not met
6, they inhabit a lair
7, they are defeated by heroic combat

my hypothesis is that dragons weren't creatures but were bandits or raider, possibly mounted and possibly Welsh, who operated an early form of the protection racket.
if they got their female fun, some sheep to barbecue and gold for their treasure hoard, they were happy.
if they didn't, they took what they wanted and the village burnt down.

I mentioned possibly mounted because that could have lead from a description of a mounted band riding into a village at a canter or gallop with their cloaks flapping like the wings of some great beast into a mistaken retelling of the account where they go from being likened to a great beast to actually being named as one.

if a story teller said that the dragon descended on the village it could have simply meant that the bandits turned up in force, but later story tellers might have mistakenly thought that this meant the dragon had the power of flight.

anyway, those are  my thoughts on the matter.
they may be complete rubbish and I accept that (that is why I only call it a hypothesis and not a theory )
anyone have anything to add that doesn't involve Turks?

 

[Moose!]

I think dragon myths were some of the earliest myths around, and I'd bet money that they were introduced to England from outside cultures. The ancient Greeks had dragons, as did the Egyptians, and the Sumerians. I think that in medieval England, dragons were more of an interpretation of Satan (wings, fire, evil) than anything else, and they stood for values typically opposed to Christianity (greed, wealth, lust, power, pride, etc).

Whether or not the Sumerians interpreted dragons as bandits is another thing entirely, but I tend to doubt it, considering dragons seemed more divine although nonetheless destructive. If anything, I think they were created to explain certain specific natural disasters.


Dragon Myths
1, they terrorise villages
2, they demand young women
3, they demand livestock
4, they hoard gold and treasure
5, they burn everything in their wake if their demands are not met
6, they inhabit a lair
7, they are defeated by heroic combat

Satan Myths
1. Satan corrupting mankind?
2. Satan corrupts virgins and turns them into immoral women (read; sluts)?
3. Those filfthy pagan Welshmen (read; Satanists) practice barbaric animal worship?
4. Maybe related to greed?
5. Satan.
6. Hell?
7. God triumphs over evil.

While dragons certainly predate Satan, many of these British myths are probably shaped because of Christianity.

 

[BEAST]

And witches as well

 

[Almalexia]

Dragons were real, guys, and they were Turks.

 

[BEAST]

Lengthy detailed post about how dragons once spoke an Indo-European language which the Turks also spoke making them Turks, so all dragons in the world were Turks, and the knights errant that slayed them were Turks also since they could communicate with them in their Indo-proto-pasta European language

BEAST

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

Dragons were real, guys, and they were Turks.

He said NOT INVOLVING TURKS!!!

 

[War_B*stard]

I think its a bit reductuve to assume that there is necessarily some rational or terrestrial explanation behind mythical stories or their elements. And given the paucity of British mythology it's hard to interpret dragons other than being an allegorical representation of evil.

 

[Archonsod]

They're not actually all that common in British myth, traditionally British myth cycles have tended to centre around giants or sidhe. There are a lot of worms though (although these tend to be amphibious and are likely based on eels or actual worms rather than giant firebreathing lizards). Generally, the only tales regarding Dragons all come from the church, and tend to be allegories of the Vikings (and later, anyone else who pissed them off, from local Lords to the Pope).

The reason people transposed mythological beasts in place of actual events tended to be for safety;  "an unbelievably huge dragon descended on the village and ate all the sheep, but a dashing young squire came by and promptly beheaded it" is far less likely to result in your beheading than  "that fat, lazy ****wit in the castle opted to raise the tithe again, and we had to sell all of our sheep to pay it. I wish someone would chop that buggers head off".

I think dragon myths were some of the earliest myths around, and I'd bet money that they were introduced to England from outside cultures.

Not exactly, though you're on the right track. The first Dragons are in the bible, a (mis?) translation of sea serpent. The latin literally translates to "one with a deadly glance". What you tend to find in all folklore is that those recording it tend to transpose the nearest similar concept in their own tongue; thus any stories regarding large creatures capable of killing via sight (or breath) tend to be labelled Dragons when they're recorded (since the recorder, in most cases in Britain, would be writing in Latin). You see a similar thing with the Norse - Elf becomes interchangeable with Sidhe, though the two are distinctly different, and again with the Kraken which is usually deemed to be a large squid or octopus these days; the Greeks thought it was a giant serpent, and the Norwegians a giant crab, while the Swedes thought it was a large fish. The Octopus idea comes from German.

 

[Moose!]

When I'm talking about Greek and Sumerian dragons and Egyptian and Norse dragons, I'm including sea serpents. In my opinion, the earliest dragon myths are interchangeable with sea serpent myths. Even the winged dragons retain serpentine characteristics, and dragons can certainly live in the water. Look at Chinese dragons.

Greek dragons (read; sea serpents) occupy the same role of dragons (the dragon that was killed by Perseus). Sure, he didn't breathe fire, but he occupied a similar role. Jason killed a dragon (read; serpent) that protected the Golden Fleece (read; magical treasure). The wings and the fire came later, but I don't think they're fully unrelated.

I also think that sea serpent myths have more of a history in the animal kingdom than allegory (although fear of the unknown undoubtedly plays a factor). If you found one of these washed up on the shore three thousand years ago, you'd be telling stories too!

Spoiler

 

[Urlik]

Generally, the only tales regarding Dragons all come from the church, and tend to be allegories of the Vikings (and later, anyone else who pissed them off, from local Lords to the Pope).

this could be the same root as I hypothesised.
substitute Welsh border raiders for Vikings (in their Dragon headed boats).

The reason people transposed mythological beasts in place of actual events tended to be for safety;  "an unbelievably huge dragon descended on the village and ate all the sheep, but a dashing young squire came by and promptly beheaded it" is far less likely to result in your beheading than  "that fat, lazy ****wit in the castle opted to raise the tithe again, and we had to sell all of our sheep to pay it. I wish someone would chop that buggers head off".

a good point when you are criticising someone who could have you put to death or just thrown in a dungeon.

When I'm talking about Greek and Sumerian dragons and Egyptian and Norse dragons, I'm including sea serpents. In my opinion, the earliest dragon myths are interchangeable with sea serpent myths. Even the winged dragons retain serpentine characteristics, and dragons can certainly live in the water. Look at Chinese dragons.

Greek dragons (read; sea serpents) occupy the same role of dragons (the dragon that was killed by Perseus). Sure, he didn't breathe fire, but he occupied a similar role. Jason killed a dragon (read; serpent) that protected the Golden Fleece (read; magical treasure). The wings and the fire came later, but I don't think they're fully unrelated.

I also think that sea serpent myths have more of a history in the animal kingdom than allegory (although fear of the unknown undoubtedly plays a factor). If you found one of these washed up on the shore three thousand years ago, you'd be telling stories too!

Spoiler

this is why I limited my hypothesis to dragons in the UK as they are very different to those in other mythologies (who were seen as guardians or seen as elemental spirits)

 

[Moose!]

substitute Welsh border raiders for Vikings (in their Dragon headed boats).

I think that's more of a situation where the Vikings are exploiting an already common myth (dragons, sea serpents, etc.), rather than a myth created because of them.

 

[Urlik]

substitute Welsh border raiders for Vikings (in their Dragon headed boats).

I think that's more of a situation where the Vikings are exploiting an already common myth (dragons, sea serpents, etc.), rather than a myth created because of them.

yes, they would be a continuation/re-affirmation of the myth rather than the source of it.

in Welsh mythology the dragon is sometimes seen as the the people of Wales, as in the fight between the Red Dragon (the Welsh) and the White Dragon (the Saxons)

 

[Archonsod]

I think that's more of a situation where the Vikings are exploiting an already common myth (dragons, sea serpents, etc.), rather than a myth created because of them.

Not so much exploiting, to the Norse the dragon headed prow was supposed to bring look and watch over the boat. Again, it's a practicality, referring to the Scandinavians as dragons was a means of avoiding persecution, particularly when communicating between the areas under the Danelaw and those outside of it - writing a letter to a fellow priest regarding your dream of dragons was a lot safer than saying "Thorrisson is planning to raid the area next month, make sure to put the relics in the hidden vault until he's gone".

in Welsh mythology the dragon is sometimes seen as the the people of Wales, as in the fight between the Red Dragon (the Welsh) and the White Dragon (the Saxons)

That's from the Historia Brittonum, and probably the basis for the red dragon as a symbol.

 

[HannibalTheCannibal]

Of course, if "dragons" referred to vakings because of their dragon prow ships, why did their ships have a dragon on it in the first place? This is kinda a sketchy theory, but I think way waayyy back in the day their might have been a few remnant dinosaurs around (a dinosaur fish was discovered off the coast of Australia maybe a decade back if I remember right) and the stories about those scary monsters survived and got elaborated on over the centuries to include things like fire-breathing. Then again, maybe it was just an extra big crocodile (which is pretty much the same thing anyways). A turkish crocodile.

 

[ancalimon]

http://www.ius.edu.ba:8080/epiphany/index.php?journal=epiphany&page=article&op=view&path%5B%5D=15&path%5B%5D=12

I read an article comparing Beowulf and Dede Korkut. Read it if you find the subject interesting.

ED: fixed the link

 

[Almalexia]

Epiphany

epiphany (ISSN 1840-3719) is a refereed semiannual journal and a publication of Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences of International University of Sarajevo. The journal started its publication in 2008, and it publishes original articles on arts and social sciences. Only the author(s) is (are) responsible for the opinions and views stated in the articles. Un-published articles are not returned to the authors.

epiphany is indexed in the Directory of Open Access Journals ( http://www.doaj.org/ )

epiphany accepts original articles in the following fields:

·        English Literature

·        Political Science

·        Psychology

·        Visual Arts and Communication Design

...

I feel... enlightened.

 

[Urlik]

http://www.ius.edu.ba:8080/epiphany/index.php?journal=epiphany&page=article&op=view&path%5B%5D=15&path%5B%5D=12

I read an article comparing Beowulf and Dede Korkut. Read it if you find the subject interesting.

ED: fixed the link

all that does is compare 2 Epics that were written in their respective cultures as they changed from one religion to another (Germanic Paganism to Christianity in Beowulf and Skygod worship and Shamanism to Islam in Dede Korkut).
it also points out the many differences between the 2 Epics.

very interesting, but that has nothing to do with this topic

 

[War_B*stard]

The idea that dragons, or any mythical beast come to that, somehow represent the actions of people seems rather fanciful. If for example, as you say, a village were raided by bandits I can see less of a need for the people there to recount the event as a mythical tale, raiding being a fairly common activity in the past and thus not an event that would require an abstracted explanation (e.g. a dragon) for the audience to understand. It seems much more likely that things not easily explained would be transmogrified into mythical creatures i.e. disease, flood, famine and other natural disasters.

 

[Urlik]

The idea that dragons, or any mythical beast come to that, somehow represent the actions of people seems rather fanciful.

more fanciful than them actual fire breathing dragons?

If for example, as you say, a village were raided by bandits I can see less of a need for the people there to recount the event as a mythical tale, raiding being a fairly common activity in the past and thus not an event that would require an abstracted explanation (e.g. a dragon) for the audience to understand.

I'm not saying that the myths started out as " we were raided, let's say it was a mythical beast that did it." I am hypothesising that descriptions of raiders, possibly from Wales, who were fought off by a heroic champion changed through retelling and ended up as a mythical creature descending on villages, taking the young women and sheep and returning to their lair, or as Arch suggested, tales about the local lord who raised taxes and had his way with the towns-folk's daughters (and you would have to use allegory and metaphor quite a bit there to avoid an extended stay in the local dungeon)

It seems much more likely that things not easily explained would be transmogrified into mythical creatures i.e. disease, flood, famine and other natural disasters.

and those things were transmogrified into gods and other supernatural beings/figures, but which unexplainable happening regularly demanded virgins and sheep and also hoarded gold?

 

[FrisianDude]

Marriage.