Flos duellatorum - a guide to medieval fighting styles

[[IT]Zoltan]

Hi! name's Emanuele and i really like what you did in this game... really... interesting. Reminds me some Darklands game for the no-magic attitude. really appreciated the combat tactics ( I play rome total war and i always wanted to really wield a sword and go fighting within ranks eheheh) anyway, this part should go in the appreciation forum eheheh...

anyway, Altought the fighting system has a base idea that's really surprising, i would like you to know that medieval combat is something else. I suggest you to read "flos duellatorum" by Fiore de Liberi, an italian master that in early Renaissance wrote a book about self defence with any kind of weapon, on foot and with mount etc.

hope this helps

 

[Destichado]

And Talhoffer, and Ars Gladiatoria, and Le Jeu de la Hache, and I.33...
(All of these medieval instruction manuals on the using of swords, axes and implements of destruction may be found at AEMMA, here: http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/library_15c.htm)

But this is an action-adventure game being made by two people, not a fighting game -ala Bushido Blade- made by a mainstream gaming company with a staff of dozens and the engine to do it.
Besides, what would we do with the defensive moves/combos/techniques? How would they be implamented?

 

[[IT]Zoltan]

well my friend, in those books the author usually describes the way of body to bodycombat, where the sword (or whatever) is sometimes used as a lever in greek-roman combat styles. They often say that anyone can usa a weapon at a reasonable distance, but when things get closer it even becomes harder to know what to do.

 

[jackx]

The implementation of some sort of "brawling"/"grappling" has been suggested already, and, as far as I know, was rather well-received by most players...

apart from that, the game's combat mechanics are good enough to allow for a variety of fighting styles... it may not look like it with only 3-4 animations per weapon, but there's still a lot of depth to the fighting system...

 

[Destichado]

This is still, in essence, a clickfest. It's just as much an FPS as DOOM was. How do you suggest incorporateing trips, knee throws, halfswording, joint locks, ect into the game controls? I *know* you can make the bots do it -you can make bots do anything from riding a horse to riding a cowboy- but how will you make the PLAYER do it? Like I said. This isn't Bushido Blade.

Unless it's something that just "happens" -perhaps based on your skill level. And in close you'd have such and such advantage over lower level bots, demonstrated by a nifty period technique... That's cool. But in that case it's window-dressing. I'm all for period and attractive window-dressing, but in that case it would take a very secondary seat to, say, adding detail to the taverns and merchant shops.

 

[nox]

Hi! name's Emanuele and i really like what you did in this game... really... interesting. Reminds me some Darklands game for the no-magic attitude. really appreciated the combat tactics ( I play rome total war and i always wanted to really wield a sword and go fighting within ranks eheheh) anyway, this part should go in the appreciation forum eheheh...

anyway, Altought the fighting system has a base idea that's really surprising, i would like you to know that medieval combat is something else. I suggest you to read "flos duellatorum" by Fiore de Liberi, an italian master that in early Renaissance wrote a book about self defence with any kind of weapon, on foot and with mount etc.

hope this helps

You are suggesting the game designers do their research. I suggest you do yours as well and realize this topic has already been brought up and discussed at length.

You aren't the only WMA person here, by a long shot.

 

[[IT]Zoltan]

I'm really sorry, it was my first post in this forum and i didn't realize that i did such a terrible thing.

I would be immensely relieved if you could forgive my acts.

 

[jackx]

I wouldn't consider it terrible, just slightly irritating/annoying as it has been brought up before...


As far as all the fighting techniques mentioned Destichado are concerned - this game obviously can not be a 1:1 copy of reality, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a clickfest either. As I already said, I don't think it's that important if you have 50 different combat animations all for different techniques... it's obviously nice to have them, but the combat system offers enough complexity , the only two additions that I could think of are
a) a "brawl" attack as suggested here and in other threads
b) 4 new attack directions , basically diagonal cuts from upper and lower left and right (you can simulate these pretty well through strafing and aiming already, though)

 

[alesch]

Really as far as this game goes any new combat animations would only be cosmetic, they might look cool but they wouldn't really do anything, so they wouldn't be important enough to matter. I say worry about more important things than graphical diversity.

 

[Destichado]

The four new attack directions would be fun!
And very easy to control. Occasionally inconvenient I would think, but not too horrible.

On that line of thought, it would be really cool to go into different wards as you pick the direction of your strike. We already have the high ward and an aproximation of the guard of wrath, but the low guard, hanging guard, and rear ward (not that you'd ever *see* that one) would be really fun to have on foot.
I would assume they'd be more or less randomly selected, as most strikes can be made from several different wards.

 

[[IT]Zoltan]

among things i'm a consumed Legend of Zelda Player. while "ocarina of time" (first 3d Zelda game) was in development, some rumors said that the 3d lever in the n64 joypad had to be used to move the sword-equipped hand, while the digital d-pad for moving purposes only. in basic pcs we don't have a 3d lever, but we have a mouse...

i know implementing a similar thing would mean changing everything to the game, therefor i posted my idea just to give this knowledge to someone else ehehhe

cheers

 

[Kynes]

Um, I'd post screenshots to illustrate this but the new set of animations for stances (for swords at least) actually seem to be taken directly from that text you cited at least I think this is an extract from it; http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/other/EXTRACT.htm.

On the topic of swordplay I'd do away with the direct downward slash completely and have two diagonal left and right 'chops' instead.

And, in general, just flesh out suggestions like these a bit more instead of dropping them on everyones lap. Think about how it could be done and think in terms of engine/time limitations.

 

[[IT]Zoltan]

dear friend, since i don't know how the current system is implemented, i cannot suggest how to upgrade and give tech support on it, suggesting the optimal way to implement things.

like the most of you, i had some designing and programming experience (i studied it at the university). i i know that, sometimes, to eliminate a flaw in a software or change anything more vital than how the gui looks it's necessary to change everything. and this, for a two-man software house it's impossible rather than boring -- and sometimes great changes can be made without relevant effort.

so, why care about those things?

 

[[IT]Zoltan]

hehehe... being more polite, search in E-mule the "flos duellatorum"
i have a copy of mine, but it's in italian and latin, dunno if it could be useful...

 

[n00854180t]

The new animations were updated from a thread which linked to a page on ARMA. Personally, I think they're damn cool. One thing I *really* wish was possible to do is change the direction of an attack. The bots are able to do so, but the player can't (easily).

 

[armagan]

Uhm... You can click Right button (to cancel the attack) and then left button again.